67 - A Forced Apology

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult, which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband, and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:25] All right, welcome back to the next episode. Today we are going to talk about something we've been dealing with personally and working through.

[00:00:39] And it's, you know, on the podcast, you know, you've heard Amanda's story if you've listened this far.

[00:00:45] And you've heard this story where she had to sit down and like apologize to her brother, even though she was the one being sexually assaulted.

[00:00:55] And, you know, that's obviously going to mess with you a little bit when you're a kid.

[00:01:01] And so that's something that she's been working through recently and something we thought we would share today.

[00:01:09] Um, how that's impacted you, Amanda.

[00:01:13] Yeah, I wish we could say we're going to share like the nice tidy everything's wrapped up with a bow on the top version of this.

[00:01:20] But I'm still like figuring that whole life experience out and figuring out the ways it shaped me and the ways I'm still dealing with the repercussions of that experience today.

[00:01:39] So what happened was that there was this revival thing that came to our non-cult church.

[00:01:52] And it wasn't cult, but it was like cult adjacent.

[00:01:55] I think there were people who were like part of this revival touring group and they were in the cult.

[00:02:02] Um, they taught a lot of the same things, very like legalistic, dogmatic approach to like God and judgment and Jesus and salvation.

[00:02:13] And, you know, again, that need to be perfect.

[00:02:18] As a quote Christian, like the cult, they talked a lot about like bitterness and I don't think they call it strongholds in your heart.

[00:02:26] But basically like you had to forgive everything, everyone or your bitterness would like physically manifest in your body and your health.

[00:02:39] And then you would know you were bitter and then you would know you had sinned and you needed to like apologize to God and the person you were supposedly bitter toward.

[00:02:52] And so at this time, at the time of like all the revival stuff, I think I was still struggling a lot with my health.

[00:02:59] I was having that jaw problem where I needed braces, but I was told it was like my bitterness.

[00:03:07] So Rick and Chris decide this might have been primarily Rick.

[00:03:11] I don't know.

[00:03:11] Rick was the one who took me to my rapist brother, made me apologize.

[00:03:14] But parentals decided that the physical manifestations of trauma, as I know now, were in fact physical manifestations of my bitterness.

[00:03:30] So I was sinning against God and I was sinning against my brother who raped me because I was harboring bitterness toward him, according to Rick and Chris.

[00:03:41] So one night I get told by Rick that I have to go apologize to Andy for being bitter about all the rape.

[00:03:54] So I get like escorted by Rick across the living room over to Andy, where I am then forced to apologize to Andy for my supposed bitterness because Andy raped me.

[00:04:11] A bunch of times.

[00:04:15] And I get like, if I close my eyes, I'm still there in the living room with the green carpet, with Rick's hand on my shoulder, guiding me to go stand in front of the rapist and apologize to him.

[00:04:29] And I think that moment probably shaped me far more than I ever realized until somewhat recently.

[00:04:40] Like that's pretty fucked up, right?

[00:04:43] Yes.

[00:04:44] Yeah.

[00:04:44] Just getting some consensus on that.

[00:04:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:50] And I have found in adulthood that I am just so much more comfortable when I'm the problem, when everything is my fault because that means I have some sense of power over it.

[00:05:07] Like if I'm the problem, I can fix it.

[00:05:09] I can make it better.

[00:05:10] I really struggle to be like not the problem.

[00:05:18] I don't know.

[00:05:19] How do we put this?

[00:05:20] The one who is owed the apology instead of the one giving the apology.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] I mean, some of it I think is also just you being right about something and having, you know, I'll use the word conviction or some sort of, you know, feeling a gut feeling or, you know, your values and trying to stick to those things.

[00:05:41] And I think from what I've heard you say previously, like that's where you kind of struggle, right?

[00:05:49] Like to hold your ground on, hey, this is the right thing to do and I need to say something.

[00:05:56] I think that in the moment I know what's right and I do what's right and then I waste years of my life second guessing it afterward and wondering if I was wrong and if I need to pick up the phone and like apologize because, you know, I ended the toxic relationship or I distanced myself from the toxic person or the harmful person or whatever.

[00:06:20] And I'm still like, but I was probably the bad guy.

[00:06:25] I think that I'm still like very uncomfortable being the villain in someone's story.

[00:06:32] But I recognize that I am the villain in probably a lot of people's stories, which is like, I don't know, is that new level of people pleasing when you're like you have to go apologize to the rapist?

[00:06:47] I mean, that's just fucked up.

[00:06:50] I don't know any other way to say that.

[00:06:52] But I mean, it's also just an interesting dynamic because like you can stand up for yourself and you do stand up for yourself and you do say what's right.

[00:07:03] And you like your your moral compass is very straight true north there.

[00:07:11] And, you know, you would think as a people pleaser would be the hard part is like standing up for yourself and even saying something.

[00:07:18] But that's not what you struggle with.

[00:07:20] It's like on the back end of that.

[00:07:22] It's like once the dust is settled, that's where it's hard for you.

[00:07:26] And I'm like having a panic attack in the corner.

[00:07:28] Like, did I do the right thing?

[00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:31] And I see that a lot.

[00:07:32] Like, I trust that you're going to do the right thing and, you know, stand up for yourself and you do.

[00:07:39] And then after that is sometimes weeks of questioning it and being unsure.

[00:07:47] Like, did I do the right thing?

[00:07:48] Did I not do the right thing?

[00:07:49] Mm hmm.

[00:07:51] Because I'm still just like very, very uncomfortable being like the not the problem in the situation.

[00:08:01] And I think a lot of like Rick and Chris would tell me all the time growing up that like you're so defensive and you can never be wrong.

[00:08:13] And and I think I like first of all, I think I was getting terrible feedback because I think I was defensive, but I was like appropriately defensive.

[00:08:28] Rightfully.

[00:08:29] Yeah, like trying to speak truth and like shine a light on things and not take BS from everyone.

[00:08:37] And also like.

[00:08:39] I was.

[00:08:41] Being raped, you know, by a family member and I shone a light on that.

[00:08:47] How dare I?

[00:08:48] So it was.

[00:08:50] I think I was getting like incorrect feedback, but I took it very much to heart and I was like, oh, I'm too defensive.

[00:08:57] Like I like that's sin.

[00:08:59] I'm not like receptive to feedback or whatever the Bible says I need to be.

[00:09:04] So then I think I swung way too far in the opposite direction to the point where I was like, hi, I'm the problem.

[00:09:09] I'm Amanda.

[00:09:10] I'm the problem.

[00:09:11] I'm definitely the problem.

[00:09:12] I'm always the problem.

[00:09:13] It's me.

[00:09:14] I'm the problem.

[00:09:15] Well, it's such an interesting thing because not only was that happening like in your family, but that's something that the cult kind of reinforced, especially with the women.

[00:09:25] It's like you're the stumbling block.

[00:09:26] You cause all these problems.

[00:09:28] If a man messes up like it's your fault and the whole bitterness thing and how that physically manifests in your body.

[00:09:37] So, I mean, there's a lot of layers to, I think, why you question yourself so much after you've made the right choice.

[00:09:46] And I think, you know, when you make these choices, I'm always like, yeah, that makes total sense.

[00:09:54] Like you're right.

[00:09:55] Like that's the logical thing to say.

[00:09:58] That's the right thing to do.

[00:09:59] That's, you know, the morally correct thing to do or to have a boundary somewhere.

[00:10:04] And so you always like get to the right conclusion and it's just the guilt afterwards that is killer for you.

[00:10:12] Yeah.

[00:10:12] And I feel like that is something that the cult kind of manifested in probably all of the girl children, if I had to guess.

[00:10:20] I mean, I don't, I don't know, but it sounds logical.

[00:10:28] I mean, it's kind of like a combination of like, I mean, trauma and then gaslighting to trauma.

[00:10:34] And being completely surrounded where your whole sphere of influence is, is telling you you're the problem.

[00:10:43] And even if you know you're right.

[00:10:47] And I think that that like more than I realized until somewhat recently has shaped a lot of situations I found myself in as an adult.

[00:11:01] Where like life is hard and there's going to be tough interpersonal shit.

[00:11:05] I think there are going to be tough choices you have to make.

[00:11:10] Be it in relationships or business, career, finances, all of these things.

[00:11:15] And I think that I've really in my life struggled with like confidence on the back end of those decisions.

[00:11:27] And I, I'm sure there are more experiences than like being taken to the rapist and forced to apologize to him.

[00:11:34] That shaped my struggles with confidence around some of my decisions.

[00:11:42] But that's the one I, at least lately, I have been coming back to a lot.

[00:11:46] Like that was such a, I'm trying to think of like the words to explain.

[00:11:51] I mean, I think we can all say like that is so messed up who does that.

[00:11:56] But like the experience of it and the long-term implications of it were like, well, everything you thought and everything you felt about this situation is incorrect.

[00:12:09] And in fact, you're the bad guy now.

[00:12:12] You are in fact so bad.

[00:12:14] You owe the rapist an apology.

[00:12:17] You're sinning before God.

[00:12:19] You're sinning before your parents.

[00:12:21] You're sinning so bad.

[00:12:23] Like the rapist didn't even sin as bad as you did.

[00:12:29] And like, I think I'm, I'm just kind of recently realizing how much it takes to come back from that sort of messaging.

[00:12:40] I mean, it's, it's wild to like hear you say that and think that someone was teaching you that or teaching their kid that.

[00:12:47] Yeah.

[00:12:47] They're like, this is, this is how it is.

[00:12:50] Like that's a whole other level of like spiritual manipulation in this circumstance.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:13:00] Just because like, I think everybody can agree like that.

[00:13:05] Like someone was doing that to you and there's no reason why you should be apologizing.

[00:13:11] Like, even if you reacted poorly, it's like, okay, that makes sense.

[00:13:16] Like someone was raping you.

[00:13:19] I would expect you to have a.

[00:13:21] But it wasn't even my behaviors toward my brother.

[00:13:23] It was the fact that my body was becoming ill.

[00:13:26] Like I was having medical trauma induced issues that Rick and Chris believe were bitterness induced, not trauma induced.

[00:13:36] So it wasn't even that I was behaving poorly toward the rapist.

[00:13:40] It was that my body was having a physical reaction to trauma that was deemed so unacceptable.

[00:13:46] And the only explanation was that I was like too angry and bitter at the rapist person.

[00:13:52] That's, that's wild.

[00:13:53] Like that's just, there's a, there's a couple layers to this, the manipulation and the gaslighting and the, the abuse.

[00:14:01] And it's just, it's such a crazy thing.

[00:14:04] And no wonder why it's hard for you to, you know, you're making the right decision.

[00:14:08] Like now, like as an adult, you're making the right decisions.

[00:14:12] And then the amount of regret and guilt that comes after that.

[00:14:18] I don't know if regrets the word, but guilt is definitely guilt.

[00:14:24] It's like, like we couldn't even hold my brother accountable.

[00:14:29] We had to hold me accountable for having feelings and a trauma reaction to being a child survivor of rape.

[00:14:40] So what, I guess that's a good point.

[00:14:43] Like I was guessing, but like, what feelings do you actually feel when you make these hard choices?

[00:14:51] I think I second guess my own credibility.

[00:14:55] Like, um, and I, it's, it's just occurring to me that like, this is such a clear connection in my head between that childhood experience.

[00:15:06] And like the way I struggle in the aftermath of making tough calls today.

[00:15:10] But I don't, does that make sense to everyone else?

[00:15:13] Like, does that make sense to you, Kyle?

[00:15:15] Or should I try to explain this intense connection?

[00:15:18] I feel, um, try again.

[00:15:21] Okay.

[00:15:22] So I think a lot of the second guessing that occurs post tough decision in adulthood is rooted in like, oh my God, am I a terrible person?

[00:15:33] Because I made that call.

[00:15:34] And I think that that is reinforced by this narrative in my childhood that I was so bad.

[00:15:43] I was worse than the rapist.

[00:15:46] Like I owed the rapist an apology.

[00:15:48] I was so bad.

[00:15:49] So like, is that somehow manifesting?

[00:15:52] Is my badness like manifesting in adulthood?

[00:15:56] And these tough decisions are just proof that I am actually a terrible person.

[00:16:04] That's crazy.

[00:16:08] It's like, I hear what you're saying and I just can't comprehend.

[00:16:12] Have I ever explained it that clearly to you before?

[00:16:16] Um, I don't think so.

[00:16:17] Like I've seen it and I've obviously heard you like process it, you know, after you make a decision and you're just like, oh my God, it was that, was that right?

[00:16:27] Am I in the wrong?

[00:16:28] Like I've seen you go through the motions, but I don't think I've heard you articulate it like that.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:35] We just started like, we unlocked this layer in therapy somewhat recently.

[00:16:41] So that's why I'm saying like, I don't have a nice pretty bow to put on this because I haven't fully figured it out.

[00:16:48] But I can't be the only person who was convinced as a child that they were so like inherently evil that they struggle in adulthood to believe that they make good choices from a good place with a good heart.

[00:17:03] Right?

[00:17:03] Like, yeah.

[00:17:04] I mean, I don't.

[00:17:04] Yeah, I don't think so.

[00:17:07] I don't think I'm like existing in a silo or a vacuum or something with that.

[00:17:13] I am sure that there are other people who grew up in like oppressive environments who were fed such a strong narrative of like, you worm.

[00:17:23] I mean, it was in our hymns.

[00:17:25] Such a worm as I.

[00:17:27] How could God love me?

[00:17:28] I'm a worm.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] Yeah.

[00:17:30] And I'm just curious, like, who else feels somewhat crippled by that in adulthood still?

[00:17:40] Like out doing the thing, but then on the back end, like totally crippled, but no one sees it.

[00:17:45] Let me take a different angle of this and see if it changes anything for you.

[00:17:50] Like just as a, like a sexual assault survivor, like the amount of shame that goes into just that existing with that life experience.

[00:18:01] If you even want to call it that, like, does that play into that at all?

[00:18:07] Like just having gone through that experience and then being told like people downplaying the situation or doubting that that's what happened or trying to sweep it under the rug and like, well, let's not talk about that.

[00:18:22] And like the family situations, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, because this is what you do.

[00:18:27] But like in normal family dynamics, when someone in the family is sexually assaulted or raped and the family tries to hide it or downplay it, does that, is that playing into the same feeling that you have?

[00:18:43] Yeah.

[00:18:44] I mean, I definitely used to experience a lot of shame, guilt, and embarrassment about what my brother did and the family shutting it down and hushing it up and making me apologize to my brother.

[00:18:55] Like that all definitely played into the couple decades I spent in shame and guilt and embarrassment.

[00:19:05] Luckily, I don't have any of that anymore.

[00:19:07] Like I have been able to shift all of those feelings off of myself and appropriately place them on a guy named Andrew Lewis, who is the actual problem, not me.

[00:19:19] But yeah, I would say those experiences of like gaslighting and the family covering it up and being told, you know, you're the stumbling block, you're the problem, would definitely feed into shame, guilt, and embarrassment that would keep people quiet about their experiences of sexual assault.

[00:19:38] And it takes a lot of work and a lot of recovery to get to a place where you can shift those feelings off of yourself as the survivor and appropriately onto the perpetrator.

[00:19:49] So I think my like issues around decision making and like the couple weeks of distress I experienced after making a tough call, it's not even about the rape.

[00:20:00] It's about the parental response to it.

[00:20:04] It's like what the authorities in my life, like how they framed it for me and like how they reacted to what I went through and how they reacted to me and how they made me the problem and how they framed me as the bad guy and how they taught me that the best picture of myself was one where I was a sinner because I was experiencing manifestations of trauma.

[00:20:29] Like that's, I think that's what's causing the issues today that I'm still working through.

[00:20:36] It's crazy.

[00:20:38] Am I understanding this correctly?

[00:20:40] Like your dad specifically or your parents were wanting you to apologize for your brother because of the physical manifestations of the trauma that you were experiencing.

[00:20:53] And so they were like, oh, well, you're, you have all these medical issues.

[00:20:59] Like it's caused.

[00:21:01] So the only solution to this is for you to go apologize to your brother.

[00:21:06] Well, first I had to like recognize the sin and error of my ways and repent before God.

[00:21:12] And then yes, apologize to my brother because I was harboring bitterness toward him in my heart for what he did to me.

[00:21:19] It's so weird.

[00:21:21] It's such a weird way to think about that.

[00:21:25] Yeah.

[00:21:26] But I think like, I think it's, it's impacted a lot of things.

[00:21:31] Like I will admit when I'm wrong and I will say, I'm sorry with all the sincerity in my heart, but like, I'm not going to say I'm sorry unless I'm convinced that I did something wrong.

[00:21:41] Mm hmm.

[00:21:43] And that's like, that's a very hard line.

[00:21:45] And I draw on the sand now.

[00:21:47] Like I've apologized to, well, I've been forced to apologize to a rapist before in my life.

[00:21:52] Like you better believe that I'm not out there throwing I'm sorry around willy nilly as an adult.

[00:22:01] Uh, and I'm okay.

[00:22:04] I'm okay with that one.

[00:22:05] Cause I think it makes my apologies very sincere when they do occur.

[00:22:11] Um, and the other funny thing is like, just to prove Rick and Chris wrong.

[00:22:20] I went through one of the most intense feedback structures one can experience, which is the military.

[00:22:26] And now I'm a PhD student, which in case you didn't know is like a really intensive feedback environment.

[00:22:34] And like, no one has ever once told me I'm defensive.

[00:22:38] No one has ever once said that I'm not open to feedback.

[00:22:44] So I think that's like, I think it's been interesting to kind of like discover myself as an adult in that way and realize like what Rick and Chris said that was absolutely false.

[00:22:59] Like they didn't know me.

[00:23:00] They didn't get to know me.

[00:23:01] I was just scary.

[00:23:03] But I mean, they, I think that they would say they know me, but it was like the narrative that they made up, not the real me.

[00:23:12] And it's funny, like just hearing myself say that I'm realizing like, oh, okay.

[00:23:16] So like, I'm still, I'm still learning like what they said.

[00:23:28] Um, well, I'm, I'm still figuring out like what to discard or what I have discarded of the personality they tried to place on me.

[00:23:43] That wasn't actually mine.

[00:23:46] But I think she's still kind of like new to me.

[00:23:51] Um, like I knew the version of myself.

[00:23:56] I was told was myself for like 20 years, 25 years.

[00:24:02] And I've only known the version of myself that's like coming out of all of that and standing on her own for about 10.

[00:24:11] Well, I guess it's been a little longer than that, but still like not, not as long as, as the version that was filled with lies from Rick and Chris.

[00:24:19] So I think that I probably come across very confident.

[00:24:25] I probably come across very outgoing.

[00:24:28] Um, but I, I do struggle with like crippling doubt afterwards, um, after making a tough decision or, um, taking a stand for something just because I'm, I'm still like, I still have those voices in my head telling me that I am, I'm, I'm the problem.

[00:24:55] Um, so how could I make the right call?

[00:24:59] It seems like it's a lot of self doubt coupled with anxiety that happens.

[00:25:05] Like after you, you make decisions that are hard or things you care about, even like that, you have to be hard decisions.

[00:25:15] Sometimes they're just things you care about and you want to make sure it's right.

[00:25:20] You make the call and then you're into like a one to two week long, uh, experience where you're just doubting it.

[00:25:32] I can imagine that's a hard way to live.

[00:25:35] Like it, it consumes you a lot of your time thinking about this stuff.

[00:25:40] Um, and I think in an average person that didn't go through those experiences, you know, they may go, Oh, I don't know if that was right or not.

[00:25:47] And they made me think about it for a day or two, but it's not to like the extent that you go through it in my opinion and experience.

[00:25:57] Hmm.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:59] I would like that version that you just described.

[00:26:01] Yeah.

[00:26:02] That sounds a lot easier.

[00:26:05] A lot less disruptive.

[00:26:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:08] Does it make more sense now?

[00:26:11] Like the link between that formative experience as a child and why it's hard for me to accept that, like, I can be a good person with a good heart who makes good choices.

[00:26:21] Yeah.

[00:26:22] It makes more sense.

[00:26:23] It makes sense.

[00:26:24] Um, and you know, I think I understand it better now.

[00:26:29] And again, from like my perspective, I'm like, she's always making the right call.

[00:26:33] This is easy.

[00:26:33] Like have more confidence in yourself.

[00:26:35] Like this is right.

[00:26:36] I, I'm trying to like echo chamber you a little bit or not echo chamber, but like, I'm trying to reinforce, like, this is, that was the right idea and the right call and we'll talk it out.

[00:26:45] And then I'm like, yeah, makes sense.

[00:26:47] Like, sounds like the right, right decision.

[00:26:49] Go for it.

[00:26:49] And then still, even with that feedback from me, it really doesn't change anything or does it?

[00:26:56] Well, the hard part is I always do the damn thing.

[00:27:00] Like whatever it is, it's already done.

[00:27:02] Like I already made the call that I believe is right before I have the existential crisis.

[00:27:13] So I guess on one hand, it's kind of nice because like I can always count on myself to do the right thing and just get her done.

[00:27:22] And then the hard part is I know there's going to be an existential crisis for a couple weeks, months, years, who knows, in the aftermath of making that decision.

[00:27:35] But at least, you know, the decisions already made and I already did the thing.

[00:27:39] So I'm not just like paralyzed.

[00:27:42] Yeah, that is good that you can make, you know, good decisions.

[00:27:48] So that wasn't impacted.

[00:27:49] So yeah, I know we just kind of ran through all of that.

[00:27:52] But I think it's a good insight into the effects of like manipulative environments like that and the lasting effects it can have on people because I'm sure there's other people out there that have been through similar experiences.

[00:28:09] And hopefully they can relate to that.

[00:28:13] I'll keep you posted on the journey.

[00:28:15] Yeah, it's a little work in progress.

[00:28:18] It's just been coming up like a lot in the last couple weeks in our conversations.

[00:28:26] And in case there's anyone else out there who also experiences this, like, hi, you're not alone.

[00:28:33] It sucks here.

[00:28:34] But we're going to figure it out.

[00:28:36] We will.

[00:28:37] And as my therapist calls it, a growing edge.

[00:28:42] It's a growing edge.

[00:28:44] There's room for growth there.

[00:28:46] So yeah, this is not going to stay like this.

[00:28:49] This episode is a little different because I feel like a lot of the stuff we talked to like you've already been through the experience.

[00:28:55] You've processed it.

[00:28:56] You've come out the other side and you're like telling the story.

[00:29:01] And this one is still a little bit more still in the story in the story plot thickens.

[00:29:08] And then she has a panic attack.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:12] So no huge punchline to this episode because that's still in progress.

[00:29:21] But hopefully everybody can understand what being in that environment can look like and how it manifests and carries with people for a long time.

[00:29:37] And my spiel has been and will continue to be like, what happened to me wasn't my fault.

[00:29:44] But it is still my responsibility as an adult to heal myself and to do the work to love myself well and to parent myself and be the good example for myself and all of those things.

[00:29:58] So work in progress.

[00:30:00] I foresee a lot more therapy sessions about this.

[00:30:05] Yeah.

[00:30:05] And I look forward to the day when it's just like not the deal it is now, you know, where instead of having crippling self-doubt and anxiety for weeks and weeks after making a tough decision, it's just like, well, that was hard.

[00:30:20] Okay, what's next on the calendar?

[00:30:22] Like, that would be really nice.

[00:30:25] And I believe I can get either there or something like that.

[00:30:30] So.

[00:30:31] I believe in you.

[00:30:32] You'll get there.

[00:30:33] Yeah, I believe in me too.

[00:30:36] It'll get better than this.

[00:30:38] All right.

[00:30:39] Well, that wraps up everything for this week.

[00:30:41] We'll be back next week with a little holiday episode.

[00:30:46] And then we are going to.

[00:30:49] Take a two-week break.

[00:30:51] I think two-week break.

[00:30:52] Yeah, just a two-week break.

[00:30:54] But we're coming back with some pretty big stuff.

[00:30:57] And we'll tell you about that next week.

[00:30:59] Yep.

[00:31:00] So that'll be all for today.

[00:31:01] And we'll see you guys next Monday.

[00:31:03] Thanks for listening to another episode of The Cult I Left Behind.

[00:31:07] Until next time, don't join a cult.

[00:31:10] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share, and subscribe.

[00:31:13] And we will catch you on the next episode.

[00:31:15] I'll see you next time.

[00:31:16] Bye.

[00:31:16] Bye.

[00:31:16] Bye.

[00:31:16] Bye.

[00:31:16] Thank you.