Amanda finally shares some of her dating history post-cult, pre-Kyle. Stories include the Taco Bell incident (Kyle's favorite), trad-wife-seeking encounters, insurance scammers, and that one time Amanda asked a guy out (see social media for the whole story). Also, as a public health professional, Amanda is very proud of how she handled the sexual aspect of her dating history. ;)
[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult, which you might know from the Duggar family.
[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband, and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.
[00:00:25] All right, welcome back to the next episode. Today we are going to talk about what it was like for Amanda to date post-cult.
[00:00:39] Post-divorce, post-cult.
[00:00:41] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:00:42] Post-cult, post-divorce. In chronological order.
[00:00:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:00:48] We've been saying we'd do this episode for a while and then we just never got around to it.
[00:00:53] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:00:54] So obviously we went and talked through the whole courting thing.
[00:00:57] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:00:58] Mm-hmm.
[00:00:59] And after the divorce, you obviously hadn't dated like at all.
[00:01:05] Never.
[00:01:05] Post-cult, right?
[00:01:07] Correct.
[00:01:08] So when you got out into the being single and on the market, as they say, like, how did that go?
[00:01:19] Did you have to like try to figure out how to not court or did you just keep that like same mentality or like where was your head at?
[00:01:29] Huh.
[00:01:30] That's a great question.
[00:01:31] Where was my head at?
[00:01:33] I think it was like a combination of grief.
[00:01:35] Although my marriage was such a slow burn to the end that I feel like by the time the divorce happened, I had kind of like preemptively let go and healed.
[00:01:47] Cause there was a delay from like filing the papers till it finalized.
[00:01:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:01:52] A pretty substantial one actually because of where we lived at the time.
[00:01:57] So I read books and went no contact except for like important things.
[00:02:03] And that really helped me.
[00:02:07] And so I went through a period where, yeah, I was like really sad.
[00:02:10] And then kind of worked through that while waiting for it to finalize.
[00:02:17] And then I think it was one of my girlfriends who like grabbed my phone one day while we were at lunch and was like, I'm setting you up on dating apps.
[00:02:28] Heard that story a lot.
[00:02:30] Like friends just being tired of you being single.
[00:02:33] Cool.
[00:02:34] And then in general, I'm generalizing this scenario, but you know, we're getting you on dating apps and then off you go.
[00:02:42] I think it was more like they wanted me to get back out there.
[00:02:46] Cause I'd been with someone who was like, I don't like you.
[00:02:49] I don't love you.
[00:02:50] I'm not attracted to you.
[00:02:52] I don't want to have sex with you.
[00:02:53] Like you're not the thing.
[00:02:55] I had one friend tell me when male friend tell me that like, when the divorce happened and I was ready, there would be a line like a mile long to date me.
[00:03:06] And I thought that was ridiculous.
[00:03:08] He wasn't totally wrong.
[00:03:10] Yes.
[00:03:11] And, um, like all my girlfriends obviously did what good girlfriends do and like hype you up and tell you it's all going to be great.
[00:03:23] And you're pretty and interesting and you know what good girlfriends do after a breakup.
[00:03:30] But I like, that's what good friends do after a breakup.
[00:03:34] You don't know if it's true or not till you like get out there and try.
[00:03:38] And I had no idea how to date.
[00:03:41] I had no idea how to like meet someone for the first time at a location, like a restaurant or a coffee shop or something.
[00:03:51] And like, just start talking to them.
[00:03:55] Like, I'm also an introvert.
[00:03:58] So why would I want to do that in the first place?
[00:04:01] And it was, it was actually really intimidating.
[00:04:06] Were you scared just cause it was like dating or was you, were you scared cause it was like, I have to figure out how to date and not court or all of it?
[00:04:15] Yeah. It was like, I have to meet people.
[00:04:18] I have to vet strangers and make sure they're not like dateline.
[00:04:23] Is that the one where it's like serial killers or whatever?
[00:04:26] I think it might've been on dateline.
[00:04:27] Yeah.
[00:04:27] And I have to talk to people after a long day at work, talking to people instead of being home alone.
[00:04:38] And then it was also just like, I don't know.
[00:04:42] It's this cultural thing that everyone else has done except me.
[00:04:44] It felt like, and I, I think one of the things with divorce is like, at least for me, I had lost a lot of confidence in myself and my ability to like vet people because this, my ex was someone I grew up with.
[00:04:58] Like I knew him for 10 years before I married him and whoo, I did not, I did not choose well.
[00:05:06] Like in the end, I think I did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time making the decision to get married to him.
[00:05:11] But I had a pretty wrecked sense of self-confidence around like my ability to not pick a narcissist or a liar or a cheater or like any of those things.
[00:05:27] So I think I was a little gun shy, but I think I was also like curious.
[00:05:32] It was interesting too.
[00:05:34] So I decided, I don't know if this will shock people or not, but like, I decided to take a very scientific route to it.
[00:05:41] And I made an Excel spreadsheet.
[00:05:45] Only one?
[00:05:47] I might've had a couple tabs.
[00:05:50] And I started listing, like I would go on dates and then come back and fill out my spreadsheet with like what I had learned.
[00:05:58] Cause I was trying to figure out like what I, what I like.
[00:06:00] Cause okay.
[00:06:01] Another really important thing, like coming out of the cult and that marriage, both of which were pretty high control environments for me.
[00:06:08] Like, I didn't even know what food I liked when my divorce happened.
[00:06:12] I didn't know what kind of clothes I like to wear.
[00:06:15] I didn't know what kind of things I like to do.
[00:06:17] Cause my world kind of revolved around my ex and we did what he liked and we ate what he liked.
[00:06:23] And we went where he liked and everything was kind of what he liked.
[00:06:26] So I didn't really know what I, like what worked for me.
[00:06:33] So I had, you know, columns for age and like different aspects of appearance, nothing too like discriminatory.
[00:06:42] Just like that they have blonde hair, black hair, brown hair.
[00:06:49] You were just like collecting data points.
[00:06:51] Yeah.
[00:06:51] And I, I didn't, I was looking for the right person.
[00:06:55] I didn't care about race or ethnicity.
[00:06:58] I did care about height.
[00:06:59] I will say that was like my one thing just, and I've explained in previous episodes, like how men got real weird about my height.
[00:07:07] Cause I'm so tall.
[00:07:07] So I did want someone at least my height.
[00:07:11] So that was almost more from like a defensive standpoint.
[00:07:14] Like I just, you had bad experiences with guys that were shorter than you.
[00:07:18] Being really weird about it, which like I learned, well, I actually had had experiences as a married person, like coworkers telling me I emasculated them with my height and stuff.
[00:07:29] So like, even apart from the dating world, I had some like, I don't know, men are weird about my height things.
[00:07:35] But then after I tried dating men who were shorter than me, I think, I can't remember.
[00:07:42] I feel like my first actual date was someone who was shorter than I am.
[00:07:52] Um, but we can come back to that.
[00:07:55] So like, it wasn't like I just wrote it off.
[00:07:57] I tried.
[00:07:59] Uh, I think I had tabs for like career, sense of humor, um, whether or not they were in the military.
[00:08:05] Cause I, I wasn't sure how that was going to work.
[00:08:08] Um, because usually one person in the military, like their career pulls the other person.
[00:08:13] And that was a huge problem with me and my ex, like he did well in the military.
[00:08:19] I think he won a lot of awards and he DG'd OTS, um, a distinguished graduate.
[00:08:26] Oh, sorry.
[00:08:27] Yeah.
[00:08:28] OTS and BMT.
[00:08:29] So, so he was good at what he did, but then I kind of like really hit the ground running too,
[00:08:34] to the point where the, the people in charge of my career were already prioritizing me
[00:08:40] and like talking about how they were going to pull my career and then they would like make it work for my ex too.
[00:08:45] So that it wouldn't damage his career, but like my career was going to be the priority.
[00:08:49] So you were in the military at this point?
[00:08:51] Like when we got divorced.
[00:08:52] Yeah.
[00:08:53] And he, my ex really didn't like that.
[00:08:56] Even though the people who were like pulling my career were going to make sure his was not neglected in any way.
[00:09:02] Like it wasn't like, oh, we'll just make it work.
[00:09:04] It was like there were going to be good opportunities for him, but that he didn't,
[00:09:09] he didn't like that.
[00:09:10] That was still too much of a sacrifice.
[00:09:12] Yeah.
[00:09:12] He, he like specifically told me he didn't want to be with someone who was going to out perform him or outshine him.
[00:09:19] Um, he wanted someone who actually, I think verbatim told me he wanted someone who would just follow him around
[00:09:26] and let him be the primary everything.
[00:09:33] And so I was really concerned about that, um, in terms of like career and I'm not a very competitive person with other people.
[00:09:45] I'm very competitive with myself and it wasn't like I was trying to make that dynamic happen.
[00:09:51] It just sort of, I showed up and did a really good job and it made a difference.
[00:09:56] Um, so I, I had all these columns for different attributes and it was weird.
[00:10:04] It was really weird.
[00:10:06] Cause like in courting normally you like know the other person's family.
[00:10:11] And like, even with my ex, I grew up with his family around.
[00:10:16] So I knew that I knew his grandparents, all of these things.
[00:10:20] And then it's like random guy from Bumble at the coffee shop to like figure out if we're partners for life.
[00:10:28] Yeah.
[00:10:29] Like, yeah.
[00:10:30] We get on dating ads.
[00:10:30] It's like very random stranger, anonymous person.
[00:10:35] You have like zero context.
[00:10:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:38] Are they lying?
[00:10:39] Are they not lying?
[00:10:40] Like.
[00:10:41] No idea.
[00:10:42] Like it's even worse than like meeting someone in the bar or something.
[00:10:46] Like at least you saw them interact.
[00:10:48] You maybe overheard some of their conversations.
[00:10:50] You know who they're hanging out with.
[00:10:52] You know they're not catfishing you.
[00:10:53] Which I never got catfished.
[00:10:56] That I am aware of.
[00:10:58] Well, like maybe they were.
[00:10:59] But we never decided to meet up.
[00:11:02] Mm-hmm.
[00:11:02] Sort of thing.
[00:11:03] I never showed up and someone was like totally different than how they presented themselves on dating apps.
[00:11:10] I think it was.
[00:11:12] Like I'm not a good small talk person.
[00:11:15] And a lot of initial dating is just like small talk.
[00:11:17] Cause you don't know each other.
[00:11:18] Cause you didn't grow up together.
[00:11:20] You don't know their parents.
[00:11:21] And you're just trying to gauge like is this a decent human or not.
[00:11:25] And I had like nothing to fall back on.
[00:11:28] Cause I feel like a lot of people they grow up.
[00:11:30] They start dating in you know maybe high school.
[00:11:33] Or is it before that even?
[00:11:35] I don't know.
[00:11:35] I mean there's some form of that before that.
[00:11:38] Yes.
[00:11:39] And you go through heartbreak and breakups.
[00:11:41] And you start getting a little bit savvier about how these things go and who people are.
[00:11:47] And like my first breakup was a divorce.
[00:11:51] Like that's all I had.
[00:11:53] And my only relationship ended in divorce.
[00:11:56] And I'd only ever kissed my ex.
[00:11:59] And I'd only ever slept with my ex.
[00:12:01] And like I had zero context for how to maneuver in the dating world.
[00:12:09] And like how to go about testing things out with like an open heart.
[00:12:15] And being you know brave and ready to get your heart broken.
[00:12:19] If it starts going in the right direction with someone.
[00:12:22] Like all I knew from courtship was you don't get your heart broken.
[00:12:26] If your heart gets broken you did it wrong because you weren't guarding your heart enough.
[00:12:31] You didn't have enough like authority figures telling you this was the right person whom God hath sent.
[00:12:39] Amen.
[00:12:39] Like it's just you out in the wild doing the thing.
[00:12:45] And I feel like I guess looking back like I think I navigated it pretty well.
[00:12:50] Eventually I gave up on the spreadsheet.
[00:12:52] And just you know started.
[00:12:54] I did start figuring things out.
[00:12:56] Like ages that worked for me or didn't work for me.
[00:13:01] Personality types that did or didn't work for me.
[00:13:05] I had a good career.
[00:13:07] And something I experienced multiple times was I would start to think that I had a real connection with someone.
[00:13:12] And then they would bring up how like they really love that military insurance.
[00:13:17] Oh and did I mention my kid has this chronic illness?
[00:13:20] Your insurance would help them so much.
[00:13:23] And I felt horrible in those moments because like I cared about like I never met their kids because we never got that far with anyone I went out with.
[00:13:32] But like it.
[00:13:35] It became very evident very fast after those moments like they were just using me as a means to an end.
[00:13:41] I was very surprised to hear that one.
[00:13:44] Like I don't know.
[00:13:46] I know that like when women get out there like there's these guys that are you know just dead beats for lack of a better term.
[00:13:55] And that like would try to do that and like not have their own career and not have their own place to live or their own car or whatever.
[00:14:04] And it just kind of blows my mind when that I hear those stories.
[00:14:08] But like that one that one was new like I need your insurance.
[00:14:12] Yeah.
[00:14:13] So I started I didn't mind being the primary like breadwinner in a couple because I like working.
[00:14:22] I like to work.
[00:14:22] You know this.
[00:14:24] We all know this about me now.
[00:14:25] I thrive on work.
[00:14:27] So that wasn't the problem.
[00:14:29] It was like I wanted someone who wanted me for me not for like the benefits package I brought to the table.
[00:14:36] I mean depending on which benefits package you're talking about.
[00:14:41] Not the insurance one.
[00:14:47] And that I think that was kind of complicated for me to navigate because I didn't want to discriminate and be like well you don't make enough money or you don't have enough of your own shit together.
[00:14:57] But I started learning that I had to like to feel safe and like I was with someone who actually cared about me for me.
[00:15:06] I tried to find people in a similar income bracket which like listening to myself say that I don't totally know how I feel about it.
[00:15:15] But at least the way my life was at the time with the military with the you know the benefit package I had with that.
[00:15:26] I just I did definitely figure out fortunately before anything got too serious that like I was being pursued for that not for me.
[00:15:35] Um and I think that re-vectored how I approached dating even more so it felt like a constant like refinement process.
[00:15:44] Um I I feel like I was pretty adventurous within my like spreadsheet though.
[00:15:51] Like I went out with a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds a variety of personality types and all of these things like I I was really trying not to box myself in too much.
[00:16:04] Um except for like the height thing and being like at least similarly paired on an income bracket kind of like sliding scale.
[00:16:18] And I don't know if I'd say it was fun.
[00:16:21] I don't think I ever thought it was like super fun.
[00:16:26] Um it felt more like I was checking the necessary boxes because especially when you're single people are like it's a numbers game you have to like meet enough people to find the person that you're supposed to be with.
[00:16:42] And you gotta know what you like and what you don't like and you're never gonna know that unless you go on a lot of dates and meet a lot of people.
[00:16:49] So I guess I guess I approached dating like very casually not like in a hookup way but in a like I'm out here gathering data like this is research.
[00:17:00] But also very much like I wanted a life partner.
[00:17:04] So also serious.
[00:17:06] It was casually very serious.
[00:17:09] So since you were coming out of a religious cult I have to ask the question like was religion part of your spreadsheet?
[00:17:18] Came and went.
[00:17:19] With my like revival and and everything like at the beginning it was a definite no and then I went through a time when it was a yes and then it was no again.
[00:17:29] Um I think that initially I well the periods when I gravitated toward yes I wanted them to also um at least have a Christian background or something.
[00:17:42] I think a lot of that was like so we would have some commonality or a starting point the same starting point around like values and morals or something.
[00:17:52] Like I definitely wanted someone who had a sense of accountability and back then I thought that accountability had to be to like a higher power or it wouldn't be effective.
[00:18:06] Um you and other people in my life have kind of taught me that like self-accountability can also be really powerful and like maybe preferable.
[00:18:19] Like if you don't meet the threat of going to hell to be a good person like that tends to be pretty great.
[00:18:25] Um but I think I think my experience with my ex made me think that they're like had to be accountability to a higher power because he could never be accountable to himself or to me.
[00:18:38] And he wasn't interested in like accountability outside of himself.
[00:18:45] Um so I I think that the times when I did want like a a Christian person it was it was for that reason.
[00:18:54] And then there was a period where I like yeah went through my Christian revitalization era and then I was looking for someone who was like who would match me there.
[00:19:06] Without the legalism and dogma but with like the intense spirituality of it.
[00:19:13] And I was like kind of on the tail end of that when you and I met.
[00:19:17] So obviously we had talked about like you know at this point you're not in touch with your family.
[00:19:23] The whole you know parents figuring out who's who you should date and having that super limited dating pool to even pull from.
[00:19:33] Growing up.
[00:19:34] Yeah like what was it like trying to like navigate this huge open world and you know instead of just the church community that you were in or the cult like kids to or young men to like pull from.
[00:19:50] What was it like having this you know an entire city or country that you could date.
[00:19:58] Overwhelming.
[00:19:59] It was pretty overwhelming.
[00:20:02] It got to the point where like I had so many matches on dating apps I would give my phone to a trusted friend and tell them to swipe left on everyone they didn't like.
[00:20:14] Like the look of.
[00:20:19] I think it was like freeing and terrifying at the same time because again like you grow up in a cult and you're only supposed to marry another cult member like that is a limited pool from which to pull.
[00:20:31] And you either know them or you know something about them or you know someone in their family or something along those lines.
[00:20:38] Like there's some sort of pre-existing connection and someone you know can tell you something about this person.
[00:20:47] And then you're in like San Antonio or Colorado Springs or somewhere in California.
[00:20:54] Yeah like pretty huge like urban areas.
[00:20:58] Uh huh.
[00:20:58] Or metropolitan areas.
[00:20:59] Uh huh.
[00:20:59] And then it's like every single person over the age of whatever you put in there who is also dating.
[00:21:08] It was like overwhelming because obviously I was in Colorado at the time that I was single after my divorce.
[00:21:17] And yeah when you live in like a huge area like that it's just it feels like like a second job trying to like swipe through this app because there's just so many people there.
[00:21:28] It's like I didn't try dating while I was in a smaller town because I didn't live in one while I was single.
[00:21:34] But even when you're in like high school I feel like it's a lot easier because you know there's a hundred kids or a thousand kids.
[00:21:42] Whatever size school you're going to uh or ten kids and like it's a small pool you interact with them all the time.
[00:21:50] Like it's it's pretty easy to narrow it down and then these dating apps is just like a whole whole other game.
[00:21:57] And I think I think there's a reason why I was using dating apps apps at the time.
[00:22:03] Um one was just the way I was brought up.
[00:22:05] I didn't know how to like go out.
[00:22:07] You know like I didn't hang out at clubs.
[00:22:10] I didn't hang out at bars.
[00:22:12] That was during a time in my life where I feel like I say this all the time about my military career.
[00:22:17] I was working like way too many hours a day.
[00:22:21] And so I didn't have time to like develop some intense hobby that would take me places where I would like meet people like-minded people who you know with whom I might have a chance.
[00:22:33] Yeah.
[00:22:33] At connecting.
[00:22:34] So as a busy professional I I did rely on dating apps.
[00:22:40] And at the time I wasn't worried about it because I wasn't like this will be my husband.
[00:22:45] I was like this is data collection.
[00:22:47] I'm doing field work.
[00:22:50] Not surprised.
[00:22:52] It was a giant social experiment.
[00:22:55] I mean in a sense it kind of was because I didn't know how else to frame it for myself at the time other than just kind of getting out there and seeing what do I like?
[00:23:05] What works for me?
[00:23:06] What makes me laugh?
[00:23:07] What makes me feel comfortable and safe?
[00:23:09] What makes me feel cared about?
[00:23:12] Notice, valued, seen.
[00:23:13] And I mean I have I had a lot of like hiccups along the way not just because I was in a cult for so long and had never dated.
[00:23:24] Part of it was like I was in the military.
[00:23:25] So this one guy we were supposed to go on a date at 1600 which is 4 p.m.
[00:23:33] So I get where we're supposed to meet at 1600.
[00:23:36] He's not there and he's not there and he's not there.
[00:23:39] And this dude was like really into me it seemed I don't remember if this was a first date.
[00:23:45] Oh, it was a first date.
[00:23:46] But we had been talking on the app for a while and he was like really excited for our date and he didn't show.
[00:23:53] So finally I messaged him and I was like, hey, you still coming?
[00:23:57] And he was like six o'clock, right?
[00:24:00] Oh, no.
[00:24:00] And it was like 1600 is 4 p.m.
[00:24:03] And he was like, oh, no, I saw the six and I just thought 1600 meant 6 p.m.
[00:24:10] No.
[00:24:12] So I decided he was like, I can be here in half an hour.
[00:24:16] Are you willing to wait?
[00:24:18] I totally understand if you're not.
[00:24:21] And so since I realized it was my bad because I use military time instead of civilian time, I told him I'd find a coffee shop and wait around.
[00:24:34] And so then he did show up and we had a fine date.
[00:24:37] So there was stuff like that that happened.
[00:24:40] And I feel like there were a lot of other interesting moments.
[00:24:47] There was the Taco Bell guy.
[00:24:49] Oh, geez.
[00:24:50] My favorite one.
[00:24:51] You never let me let this down.
[00:24:53] This is one of the times I tried going out with a dude who was shorter than me and we met at a coffee shop and it was a nice day.
[00:24:59] So we sat outside and he showed up wearing like cowboy boots.
[00:25:04] So like thick heel, like sole.
[00:25:07] Oh, and it was the classic.
[00:25:09] Like he said he was 5'10", but he was really 5'6".
[00:25:12] But with the boots, he was maybe 5'8".
[00:25:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:15] And I was actually 5'11", as indicated on my profile.
[00:25:20] And he was so uncomfortable.
[00:25:22] Like when I walked out, his eyes got big and he was like, oh, you're as tall as you said you are.
[00:25:27] And I'm like trying to be polite while thinking, oh, you're not as tall as you said you are.
[00:25:32] So we get coffee.
[00:25:33] We sit outside.
[00:25:34] And he was so awkward for the rest of the date, which I kept very short.
[00:25:39] And instead of like making eye contact with me and talking, he stared at the Taco Bell across the parking lot and talked at the Taco Bell the whole time instead of me.
[00:25:48] So I'm like, shit, I can't even compete with a Taco Bell with this guy.
[00:25:53] Like this is an absolute no for me.
[00:25:58] And then there were men.
[00:26:01] Oh, man.
[00:26:02] We'd meet for coffee.
[00:26:05] That's a lot of coffee dates.
[00:26:07] Yeah.
[00:26:09] And I wasn't the type who was like, it's a date.
[00:26:11] So obviously you're paying.
[00:26:13] I usually like, well, that was another thing I didn't know.
[00:26:16] Like I didn't know what are the rules?
[00:26:18] What are the social norms?
[00:26:20] It's a date.
[00:26:21] So the guy pays or like it's a first date.
[00:26:24] So we both pay or I don't know.
[00:26:26] So I just like maneuvered myself so that I could always be in line first and then order and then pay.
[00:26:33] And then they could come behind me and pay.
[00:26:37] Didn't I try to do that on our date?
[00:26:39] I probably did.
[00:26:41] Did I pay for myself?
[00:26:43] No, you paid.
[00:26:45] Yeah, I don't.
[00:26:45] Yeah.
[00:26:46] But I think you told me you were going to pay.
[00:26:48] I think I stopped you.
[00:26:55] So, yeah, there were just a lot of things like that I didn't know.
[00:26:58] So, yeah, lots of coffee, but it wasn't all free coffee.
[00:27:01] But, yeah, I get to this one date and this guy is like, well, what was he?
[00:27:06] He was like a physical therapist.
[00:27:08] And he was like, so.
[00:27:12] And, oh, and he didn't want to.
[00:27:13] He didn't want to.
[00:27:16] Chat much on the on the dating app.
[00:27:19] He's like, I'm not one for messaging over this thing.
[00:27:22] Like, I'm I'm old school.
[00:27:23] It's me in person.
[00:27:25] Let's talk.
[00:27:26] And I guess he's the only one who didn't look.
[00:27:28] He used a picture that was him, but it was like 10 years ago.
[00:27:32] So he showed up and it took me a minute to figure out who he was.
[00:27:37] Mm hmm.
[00:27:38] Um, but, you know, we got our coffee.
[00:27:41] We sat down and and, you know, I got him to tell me a bit about his career and his life.
[00:27:49] And then he was like, so you're in the military.
[00:27:52] And I was like, yeah, I really love it.
[00:27:55] I told him a little bit about what I did at the time, whatever job I was in.
[00:27:58] And then and then he was like, so.
[00:28:03] With that career, how will you stay home and care for the children?
[00:28:12] Is that when you just got up and walked out?
[00:28:14] Pretty quick thereafter.
[00:28:16] I think I just looked at him and was like, you know, I don't think this is going to work.
[00:28:19] I don't think we're a good match.
[00:28:21] Like, I love my career and it's not my ambition to stay home with children.
[00:28:25] And it sounds like that's what you're looking for.
[00:28:27] And he was like, yeah.
[00:28:28] And I was like, OK, well, have a nice evening.
[00:28:30] That's amazing.
[00:28:32] What's amazing?
[00:28:34] Like, if that's if that's the dynamic you want to have in your relationship, like that's totally fine.
[00:28:40] But to walk into a date and just assume that the other person is on the same page with you, that the woman is going to stay home and take care of the kids.
[00:28:51] Like, that's like next level disconnected from reality.
[00:28:57] Well, this is a little petty, but like his attire kind of told me he was sort of disconnected from reality.
[00:29:05] So when he said that, like, I wasn't too shocked.
[00:29:11] And there were several like that.
[00:29:12] Oh, I actually have a video about this I can post.
[00:29:16] I did ask someone out once.
[00:29:21] Definitely a terrifying moment for me.
[00:29:23] I got bullied into it.
[00:29:24] Let's be honest.
[00:29:25] That was going to be my question.
[00:29:27] Was this intentional or?
[00:29:30] I'll just post the video on social media.
[00:29:33] There's a video of you asking somebody out.
[00:29:35] No, there's a video of me telling the story of why I asked someone out and what happened when I asked that person out.
[00:29:40] It takes a real crazy twist.
[00:29:43] One that I'm still recovering from.
[00:29:46] Still traumatized.
[00:29:47] It's fine.
[00:29:49] And I feel like there were a bunch of other, like, awkward moments.
[00:29:53] I don't think he was that guy with the awkward outfit was the only one who asked me how I was going to stay home and care for the children.
[00:30:00] There were definitely some folks who were after a very traditional situation that I was unwilling to accommodate.
[00:30:10] Yeah.
[00:30:11] So, obviously, with that statement, you had already decided, like, all that cult stay-at-home mom stuff was definitely not what you wanted.
[00:30:24] I mean, I had decided that in my previous marriage.
[00:30:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:27] That was – so, I get it.
[00:30:31] Like, I think that there are couples who, even if they both want a career, they look at the cost of, like, daycare and stuff, and they're like, we'll just break even.
[00:30:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:40] So, how about one of us just stays home?
[00:30:43] Because it's the same thing.
[00:30:44] And, like, even with my ex, who didn't want kids, but when we – we talked about it a few times.
[00:30:51] And what we had decided is, like, we're both so career-oriented that even if we just broke even, it would still be worth it to be out there, like, doing the thing that we love.
[00:31:01] So, I've always, as an adult, kind of had that mentality of, like, yeah, even if it's a break-even situation, I would rather still be out in the field doing the thing.
[00:31:14] I'm passionate about and, like, modeling that for children that you can – especially for young girls.
[00:31:20] But, like, you can have a career, and you can be a leader, and you can be a senior leader in an organization, and you can follow your heart.
[00:31:28] And also, like, I think it's possible to do that and be an invested parent.
[00:31:36] Then it's about quality of time versus quantity of time.
[00:31:43] But, like, for me, it's kind of like the work hard, play hard mentality, but, like, instead the fully present at work, fully present at home version of it.
[00:31:53] Like, I don't think that I would have a career like that and then get home and, like, just fizzle out on the kids.
[00:32:01] Like, that – so, that was kind of, like, how I talked about it while dating.
[00:32:07] And, of course, I was being very open about the fact that I couldn't have children.
[00:32:09] But if I went on enough dates with someone that we got to, like, okay, like, logistically, you have a career, I have a career, how would this work?
[00:32:16] Like, that was how I explained it.
[00:32:18] Like, I'm going to be fully present at work, and I expect you will be too, and then we'll be fully present at home with kids.
[00:32:25] And I expect we'll both be fully present at home with kids.
[00:32:31] And most people that were just fine for.
[00:32:34] Like, maybe I was doing a better job picking people to go out on dates with than I realized.
[00:32:40] But most people were like, yeah, I wouldn't expect you to give up your career or, you know.
[00:32:47] So, I went out with a lot of people who already had kids, too.
[00:32:51] And I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I had a bunch of men with daughters tell me that they were very attracted to me because they thought I would be a good role model for their daughter.
[00:33:03] And on one hand, like, that is one of the most beautiful compliments I've ever been paid.
[00:33:07] And on the other hand, I'm like, but do you like me for me?
[00:33:09] Like, I'm happy to be a positive role model for your daughter.
[00:33:12] But, like, do you want me as a wife?
[00:33:14] Like, do you want me as a life partner?
[00:33:15] Yeah.
[00:33:16] Is this just about, is this, like, military insurance but in another form?
[00:33:21] Right, yeah.
[00:33:21] Like, that's a great compliment.
[00:33:23] But where's the and?
[00:33:24] Yes.
[00:33:25] Like, and I really like you.
[00:33:27] Yeah.
[00:33:27] Or, and I think you'd be a great partner.
[00:33:30] Yeah.
[00:33:30] Or, you know, something else.
[00:33:32] You just stop it.
[00:33:33] Like, you seem like a good mom for my kid.
[00:33:35] Yeah.
[00:33:36] A little bit of a red flag there.
[00:33:38] Yeah.
[00:33:39] And I'm sure they meant it well.
[00:33:41] Like, I obviously don't have kids.
[00:33:44] But from what I understand with people who do, if they tell you, like, wow, I think I could really trust you to be a parental figure for my kid.
[00:33:52] Like, that's probably one of the nicest things they can say about you.
[00:33:55] So, I get that.
[00:33:56] But I never got, like, we didn't go on more dates because it never progressed to the, like, the part about I think you're my life partner.
[00:34:04] And, oh, isn't it great that you could also be a fantastic role model for my daughters.
[00:34:09] You know?
[00:34:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:11] So, I think you shared this in, I think, the episode about our story that the topic of you being in a cult came out a little faster than you wanted it to.
[00:34:21] So, did you ever have that conversation with anybody else you were dating or did they pick up on, like, anything that, like, led them to think you had been in a cult?
[00:34:36] I don't super remember.
[00:34:38] I know that there was, like, the one situationship I was in for, like, a year before you and I met.
[00:34:45] I think it came up then.
[00:34:47] Pretty sure it did.
[00:34:48] And then maybe, like, I had one very short-lived relationship at the beginning of my single years that it might have come up then, too.
[00:35:03] But I don't think it was something I was bringing up just on coffee dates.
[00:35:07] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:08] So, you're special.
[00:35:10] Oh, I see that.
[00:35:11] I mean, I'm just kind of a little, I don't know.
[00:35:16] Like, did you ever feel like you were socially awkward because you had been in the cult?
[00:35:20] Like, to me.
[00:35:21] To this day, yes.
[00:35:23] I don't think you are.
[00:35:24] But I didn't know what you were like when you started dating if it was, like, apparent that your upbringing and your normal social interactions and the behaviors that were modeled around you would have influenced your own behavior.
[00:35:43] And it become apparent when you, like, get out into the wild.
[00:35:45] Well, I think that the only thing that was an indicator was, like, I wasn't in the hookup scene.
[00:35:51] And there were a lot of men who didn't get that.
[00:35:54] Like, why I wouldn't just go home with them.
[00:35:56] Mm-hmm.
[00:35:56] Or, like, why I didn't kiss everyone and stuff like that.
[00:36:00] Well, first of all, I was wildly terrified of herpes.
[00:36:03] Mouth herpes.
[00:36:04] Like, that was the first thing that crossed my mind when I realized, like, we were actually going to get a divorce.
[00:36:11] Me and my ex, I was like, oh, shit, he's the only person I've ever kissed.
[00:36:14] What if I get mouth herpes?
[00:36:16] I was so scared.
[00:36:18] So scared.
[00:36:19] I was terrified of STIs.
[00:36:22] Like, everything.
[00:36:25] So I think that was the part of me.
[00:36:28] Now, my doctors loved me.
[00:36:31] I would tell them, like, I'm dating.
[00:36:35] I'm not sleeping with anyone.
[00:36:37] I'm scared of STDs.
[00:36:38] They'd be like, good.
[00:36:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:44] Um, but that was, that, like, the mouth herpes thing was a big one.
[00:36:48] So if I was going to kiss someone, like, it was a pretty big deal.
[00:36:52] And then I definitely wasn't sleeping with people, um, for the most part.
[00:36:59] And when I did, it was, like, after a while.
[00:37:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:37:06] Uh, and so I think that was the only thing about me that was, like, weird and different.
[00:37:12] Yeah.
[00:37:13] I don't even think that would be stand out.
[00:37:16] Like, that's just kind of a quirk kind of thing.
[00:37:19] I'm sure everybody's got some, I cannot stand if you chew with your mouth open kind of, you know.
[00:37:25] One of those things.
[00:37:27] Being scared of mouth herpes, I think, is fair.
[00:37:30] Uh-huh.
[00:37:31] Uh-huh.
[00:37:32] You never said anything to me.
[00:37:36] It did make you go get STD tested.
[00:37:38] Yes, that was a requirement.
[00:37:41] Uh-huh.
[00:37:42] Which is fair.
[00:37:43] I was also scared of that.
[00:37:45] I did, too.
[00:37:46] I did, too.
[00:37:46] Like, if I was, if that was a requirement I had before any kind of physicality, I'd be like, this is my, this is my standard, and I will go, too.
[00:37:56] Like, I will show you my results, but I expect to see your results as well.
[00:38:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:38:02] And that was never an issue.
[00:38:05] So, again, maybe I was doing a better job vetting people than I thought.
[00:38:11] But.
[00:38:12] Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you adapted very well.
[00:38:14] Because, I don't know, to me, I feel like if someone grew up in a religious cult and then, you know, they get out of it, I would expect there to be, like, a very awkward story and a lot of, like, trips and falls and stumbling to, like, assimilate into, like, you know, the culture you're in.
[00:38:33] It's just science.
[00:38:35] You make a spreadsheet, you decide what you do and don't like, and then if you're going to do anything physical, you check the necessary medical boxes first.
[00:38:43] Yeah.
[00:38:43] No, I mean, I get that part, but it's like, did you ever say anything weird that people were like, what do you.
[00:38:50] Well, like, keep in mind, I had been out of the cult and, like, in the normal workforce for almost 10 years at that point.
[00:39:00] Like, I'd been through undergraduate training.
[00:39:03] Right.
[00:39:04] My undergraduate degree.
[00:39:05] I'd been through my graduate degree.
[00:39:07] I'd been in the military for a while.
[00:39:09] Like, I had had a lot of touch points with various contexts to kind of, like, help me work through a lot of that.
[00:39:17] Yeah, that's true.
[00:39:18] And, like, even though Moody was a religious college or a Christian college, like, it was still a bunch of, you know, air quotes, normal Christian kids going there.
[00:39:29] Yeah.
[00:39:29] It was a melting pot.
[00:39:30] I mean, there were the really religious ones.
[00:39:32] Like, some of the girls had nose rings, Kyle.
[00:39:34] How could they?
[00:39:36] I think they had to take them out while they were there.
[00:39:38] They had to take them out while they were there, but they were still pierced.
[00:39:42] So unholy.
[00:39:43] So, you know, there were those kids.
[00:39:45] And then there were kids who were just as weird and culty as I was.
[00:39:49] So, I think I had a lot of opportunities to, like, bounce my personality off that and soften some of my rough edges a bit.
[00:39:58] And then definitely in the workforce.
[00:40:01] Like, that's, like, when I was 16 working my first jobs, like, that's when I said the dumb shit that I didn't know was abnormal and got, you know, feedback on how I wasn't normal.
[00:40:16] So, I think that that, you know, and the chorus and stuff like that.
[00:40:20] Like, I think those were the moments when I was, like, kind of stumbling over myself and figuring it out.
[00:40:27] I think by the time I – because I was 31 when we got divorced.
[00:40:34] So, I had had a lot of my 20s to kind of, like, figure myself out, at least socially.
[00:40:45] And then after the divorce is kind of when I started figuring out who I was and what I liked and what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do.
[00:40:53] And that was very freeing.
[00:40:58] And then, you know, there were just a bunch of – I don't know.
[00:41:03] Dating was weird.
[00:41:04] I didn't super love it.
[00:41:06] I was usually – like, I usually had to hype myself up to actually keep the date because I was tired and introverted.
[00:41:14] And I was usually, like, very relieved when I got to, like, go home.
[00:41:20] And it was also scary because, you know, I didn't want to have my heart broken again.
[00:41:26] And I did.
[00:41:27] I got my heart broken, like, three different times during the dating years after my divorce and before I met you.
[00:41:35] And that wasn't fun.
[00:41:36] And – but I learned a lot.
[00:41:40] I learned a ton.
[00:41:41] And there were times when I was, like, this is the shit people learn when they're 16 and I'm 31, 32, 33.
[00:41:47] Like, I'm learning this so late.
[00:41:51] So late.
[00:41:52] Like, I don't think I fumbled as much, like, in front of people I went on dates with.
[00:41:56] But it was more, like, on the back end and the, like, the heartbreak moments, the breaking up moments, the getting myself back up on my own feet moments that I feel like if you start dating at a normal age like a normal person, you kind of go through some of those bumps when you're younger.
[00:42:14] And from what I understand, when you're 16 and you get your heart broken, you think it's the end of the world and your life will never be the same again.
[00:42:21] But I think you're also a lot more, like, resilient at that age because you haven't been through as much life yet.
[00:42:28] Yeah.
[00:42:30] And so there's, like, that bounce back.
[00:42:33] Like, you're a little bit more of a rubber ball.
[00:42:35] Oh, yeah.
[00:42:36] Then you're in – you know, if you're in public schools and you're just like, okay, there's still 200 girls here.
[00:42:44] Or boys or, you know, whatever.
[00:42:46] Like, you can – I don't know.
[00:42:48] There's a little bit of assurance there.
[00:42:50] Like, it's not the end of the world.
[00:42:51] Like, this might – you know, you might have thought that was the one.
[00:42:54] And I don't know.
[00:42:57] We were – you know, we've been watching the Love is Blind show and I think someone said in there before, like, dating is so much easier when you're in college or in high school or whatever because it's like there's people around all the time.
[00:43:09] You get to interact with them all the time and then, you know, you hit the COVID times and, you know, everything's closed and you're stuck on dating apps.
[00:43:19] And, like, the whole game changed and the whole experience changed.
[00:43:22] And it sounds like a lot of those awkward moments for you were kind of – you didn't really have to go through in the dating scene because you had slowly been through those in the workforce and in the military and school.
[00:43:38] And so it sounds like it would have been, like, way different experience if you were just, like, a cult kid coming out of the cult at 18 and no relationship and never married and you were just, like, thrown out into the world.
[00:43:52] It would have been a little different.
[00:43:54] And the one thing I will say, I felt like the men I went out with were very respectful of me.
[00:44:00] And I'm not sure if that's just how I came across and how I presented myself.
[00:44:05] I think that had a lot to do with it.
[00:44:08] But I didn't have tons.
[00:44:11] Like, I had a couple negative experiences.
[00:44:15] But usually they were around, like, how are you going to care for the children and stay at home?
[00:44:20] You know, not, like, people being inappropriately handsy with me or something.
[00:44:24] Like, men were always very respectful of me.
[00:44:27] They always asked if they could kiss me.
[00:44:29] Like, they always respected my no when I, like, when they wanted more and I was not comfortable with it.
[00:44:38] If we were going to get more physical and I wanted extra testing done, they always were like, I totally agree and understand and, like, took care of that and showed me the results.
[00:44:48] And, like, I just, I didn't have, like, some horrible, horrible experience dating.
[00:44:54] Now, looking back, I feel like that should have restored my faith in humanity a bit.
[00:44:57] But it didn't.
[00:44:59] It didn't really.
[00:45:00] I think it was still, like, too raw from what I saw in my ex and, like, that whole divorce thing.
[00:45:08] But, like, maybe now I can look back at it and have some, like, retroactive restoration of faith in humanity.
[00:45:13] I'll think about that.
[00:45:14] I'll make a spreadsheet.
[00:45:16] We'll see how it goes.
[00:45:17] But, like, I am grateful for that.
[00:45:19] I am grateful that I had, like, very respectful dating experiences.
[00:45:24] Yeah, that's really good.
[00:45:25] Yeah.
[00:45:26] Until you.
[00:45:27] I'm kidding.
[00:45:28] I'm kidding.
[00:45:32] I didn't ask to kiss you, but you were trying to kiss me.
[00:45:35] So, you know.
[00:45:36] You were in the perfect blend.
[00:45:38] You still are of, like, respectful gentleman and, like, completely bad boy.
[00:45:43] So it works for me.
[00:45:44] I'm good with it.
[00:45:45] There's a very, very fine line between, like, assertiveness and respecting boundaries and consent.
[00:45:54] It was a very, very delicate balance there.
[00:45:59] But I'm glad that you had a positive experience with that in dating.
[00:46:04] And thanks for sharing your stories of entering the dating world.
[00:46:11] And then you were endgame.
[00:46:13] Yep.
[00:46:13] No more dating.
[00:46:14] No more dating.
[00:46:15] Ever again.
[00:46:16] No matter how much we, like, if it ever gets really, really bad and we ever have a fight, like, I refuse to date again.
[00:46:22] Don't ever want to do that again.
[00:46:24] So, like, we have to work it out.
[00:46:25] That's the deal.
[00:46:26] All right.
[00:46:27] Sounds good.
[00:46:29] All right.
[00:46:29] Well, that wraps up this week's episode and we'll be back next week.
[00:46:33] Thanks for listening to another episode of The Cult I Left Behind.
[00:46:37] Until next time.
[00:46:39] Don't join a cult.
[00:46:40] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share, and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode.