Kyle is in the hot seat sharing his background in the Christian church, his thoughts about purity culture as a young adult, and the way he handled sex and relationships as someone who attended Baptist church. Amanda learns a shocking revelation about Kyle's past. Kyle shares his deconstruction story and his eventual departure from Christianity. Jump in the comments and convince Kyle to share photos of his high school hairstyle on our social media channel.
[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult, which you might know from the Duggar family.
[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband, and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.
[00:00:30] Welcome back to the next episode where Kyle's in the hot seat, as promised. Are you nervous?
[00:00:37] I'm super nervous and I am ready to be done.
[00:00:40] Why are you nervous? It's just me and a ton of other people.
[00:00:44] Exactly. I don't go around and talk professionally and I try to not talk at work unless absolutely necessary.
[00:00:56] So, um...
[00:00:58] But you're interesting and you have good stories.
[00:01:02] Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:01:04] And I've been trying to think about what to call this episode like, Kyle and Sex!
[00:01:08] Kyle and Purity Culture!
[00:01:10] Kyle and Sex Before Marriage!
[00:01:12] Kyle and Sex Before Me!
[00:01:13] Like, I don't know, there are just so many good options.
[00:01:16] Your face are now!
[00:01:19] Oh, this is probably one we should have filmed.
[00:01:22] Because I'd probably look horrified and like, white.
[00:01:25] Hang on, I will snap a picture.
[00:01:28] All right.
[00:01:28] Your eyes!
[00:01:29] All right, that picture will come out live from recording.
[00:01:33] Oh, you look nice.
[00:01:35] Thanks.
[00:01:35] You just look a little scared.
[00:01:36] Yes.
[00:01:36] But mostly nice.
[00:01:38] Very scared.
[00:01:38] Yes.
[00:01:40] But first, I thought we should answer a listener question.
[00:01:44] This is from Betsy.
[00:01:46] And Betsy would like to know, as an Oklahoman, I need to know more about Kyle.
[00:01:52] Don't worry, you're going to learn a lot about him today.
[00:01:54] Where in Oklahoma did he grow up?
[00:01:56] Where did he go to college?
[00:01:57] I grew up in Southern Baptist and yeah, well, I can relate.
[00:02:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:02:02] So, Kyle, what can you tell us about yourself without, you know, your security conscious mindedness?
[00:02:10] Yeah, going out on the internet and having a presence online is something I've strived to not do my entire life.
[00:02:17] And I work in cybersecurity.
[00:02:18] So, like, I try to erase my presence from the internet and then the podcast happened.
[00:02:24] So, and now people need to know Kyle.
[00:02:27] Right.
[00:02:27] This is scary.
[00:02:28] We need to know about you.
[00:02:29] Uh, maybe.
[00:02:30] Okay.
[00:02:32] Don't like this.
[00:02:33] Uh, so I'm going to be.
[00:02:35] You probably need to tell people you're consenting to this though.
[00:02:37] I am.
[00:02:38] I am not under duress.
[00:02:39] Okay.
[00:02:40] Um, but I am going to be a little vague.
[00:02:42] So, I am from Northeastern Oklahoma.
[00:02:44] There we go.
[00:02:45] I think that's good enough for purposes here.
[00:02:48] I moved there when I was like 10-ish or so, 10, 11, somewhere in there.
[00:02:55] Um, tiny town.
[00:02:58] And yeah, I mean, I just, I went from California, like Southern California in the Inland Empire, as they call it.
[00:03:07] Um, moved around a lot there as a kid and then, and then eventually ended up in Oklahoma and very rural Oklahoma,
[00:03:14] which was different.
[00:03:16] Um, but I like being outside and in nature.
[00:03:19] So, I wasn't too sad about, uh, kind of living, living out, uh, outside the city.
[00:03:27] So, you were like a cool kid from California, right?
[00:03:30] Like a skater bro.
[00:03:31] You know, I thought so.
[00:03:33] And then I showed up at school and I still dress like I was from California, which as it turns out, like fashion in rural Oklahoma is like a decade.
[00:03:44] Behind probably what the, the coast, coastal cities are at.
[00:03:48] And so, um, you know, I was wearing all like all black, not like goth, all black, but like skater kid, all black or black and gray.
[00:03:58] Lots of black and gray.
[00:04:00] And, you know, skateboard brand.
[00:04:03] You're wearing black and gray right now.
[00:04:04] Yeah.
[00:04:04] I mean, I didn't stray too far.
[00:04:06] I didn't, I didn't assimilate very well into, uh, Oklahoma with a bunch of kids that are all wearing like mossy oak clothes and cowboy boots and Levi's.
[00:04:15] And I was wearing like Dickies and, you know, I, my style was very different.
[00:04:23] I am sure I stood out like a sore thumb.
[00:04:25] Uh, we have to talk about your frosted tips.
[00:04:28] Oh my God.
[00:04:30] And we have to show a picture.
[00:04:32] No, I don't know about that.
[00:04:35] I did.
[00:04:35] I have brown hair and at one point I bleached my entire head and it was like bright white because I don't know, that was the thing.
[00:04:45] And it, uh, you did that when you were back in California for the summer, right?
[00:04:50] I was, yes.
[00:04:51] Yeah.
[00:04:51] Sorry.
[00:04:51] I was back in California for the summer.
[00:04:53] You were back with like the cool kids and then you went back to rural Oklahoma with the bleached hair, frosted tips.
[00:05:01] How'd that go over for you, Kyle?
[00:05:03] I don't remember like getting any like real flack over that in school.
[00:05:08] Um, yeah, I don't, I mean, I kind of just floated in the background in like high school.
[00:05:14] That was high school era.
[00:05:15] Oh, so you were older.
[00:05:17] Yeah, I was.
[00:05:18] Yeah, I had to be on the prowl.
[00:05:21] What are you trying to get a girl?
[00:05:24] I don't, I don't know.
[00:05:25] I, I don't know.
[00:05:28] I don't think so.
[00:05:29] Um, I liked girls, but I didn't, I was not a smooth talker by any means and very shy.
[00:05:38] No, very quiet.
[00:05:42] So, uh, yeah, I don't.
[00:05:45] Nothing happened.
[00:05:47] I did not come back and there were girls throwing themselves on me cause my hair was dyed or bleached.
[00:05:53] Were you hoping it would?
[00:05:54] I, no, that was not the intent at all.
[00:05:56] What was the intent?
[00:05:57] I don't know.
[00:05:57] My cousin did it.
[00:05:58] Like we were, I was staying.
[00:06:00] So I would, I would go back to California in the summer sometime and like work.
[00:06:04] Um, cause my family owns a business out there.
[00:06:07] So I would go back and like work there and make money in the summer and then come, come back to Oklahoma.
[00:06:13] So I don't know.
[00:06:14] Like we were, we didn't.
[00:06:16] Yeah.
[00:06:16] I mean, we rode motorcycles and bleached your hair, bleached our hair.
[00:06:22] And, and I made a horrible mistake one time or my cousin and I both made this mistake and we put colored dye in our hair after we bleached it.
[00:06:30] And let me tell you what happens when you get in the shower and wash out red, uh, hair gel out of your bleached hair.
[00:06:38] Your head turns pink.
[00:06:40] Okay.
[00:06:41] So pink hair.
[00:06:43] Yeah.
[00:06:44] I washed my hair a lot after that.
[00:06:47] So, um, yeah, I mean, there was, I don't know.
[00:06:50] I wasn't trying to impress.
[00:06:52] Yeah.
[00:06:53] I just thought it was cool.
[00:06:54] And your mom let you do this.
[00:06:55] She wasn't aware of this.
[00:06:57] I was, but you didn't like get in trouble for it.
[00:06:59] No, not that I recall.
[00:07:01] What did she say when you showed up with bleached hair?
[00:07:03] I don't remember.
[00:07:05] So it wasn't traumatic.
[00:07:06] No.
[00:07:07] Okay.
[00:07:08] So you had like a cool mom.
[00:07:11] I sure.
[00:07:12] I don't like, like, I mean, what's, it was the big deals.
[00:07:15] Like my sister dyed her hair all the time.
[00:07:18] Yes.
[00:07:18] But Kyle, your body's a temple and you were dishonoring it by making it something God didn't design.
[00:07:22] We didn't.
[00:07:23] That was not how we operated in my family.
[00:07:26] So I wasn't even allowed to tweeze my eyebrows until I was like 16 or 18 or something.
[00:07:32] So yeah.
[00:07:33] Dyeing your hair.
[00:07:35] Nope.
[00:07:37] Whole lot of no, but you just, just bleached yours.
[00:07:40] Okay.
[00:07:42] So then you didn't quite fit in.
[00:07:45] Yeah.
[00:07:45] I mean, I just kind of like, I just floated around in the background.
[00:07:49] Did you go to prom?
[00:07:51] I did.
[00:07:52] You went to prom.
[00:07:53] Was it fun?
[00:07:54] Is prom fun?
[00:07:55] I was awkward as a young guy.
[00:07:58] Like, I, I didn't know how to talk to girls and hadn't had real like serious girlfriends.
[00:08:07] You just made out with them in the hallways.
[00:08:09] No, no, no.
[00:08:13] Um, wait, I thought you did.
[00:08:16] No.
[00:08:16] Oh, maybe, maybe.
[00:08:18] No, you had a, you had someone, you guys weren't like official, right?
[00:08:22] But you would make out.
[00:08:23] So you were a situationship before that was even a word, Kyle.
[00:08:27] Uh, yeah, sure.
[00:08:29] That happened.
[00:08:30] Okay.
[00:08:31] Once.
[00:08:32] But you didn't go to prom with her.
[00:08:33] No.
[00:08:34] Oh, that's kind of sad.
[00:08:36] I don't know.
[00:08:36] I, I, my memory is fuzzy of like when things happened around this.
[00:08:42] Maybe it's cause you're asking me questions about it and I'm blocking it out.
[00:08:45] Um, this is brilliant.
[00:08:48] No, so uncomfortable.
[00:08:50] Oh, but yeah, I didn't have a girlfriend like until after high school.
[00:08:56] Okay.
[00:08:57] And.
[00:08:59] But wait, were there girls who wanted you to be their boyfriend and you were just clueless?
[00:09:04] Yes.
[00:09:05] Okay.
[00:09:06] Mm.
[00:09:07] Okay.
[00:09:08] Eventually in high school.
[00:09:09] Yes.
[00:09:10] Before that, not so much.
[00:09:11] But in high school you were a hot commodity.
[00:09:14] Mm.
[00:09:15] Skater boy.
[00:09:16] No, I would not phrase it that way.
[00:09:18] Okay.
[00:09:18] So you were a heartbreaker unintentionally.
[00:09:22] Mm.
[00:09:22] Yes.
[00:09:24] Maybe for one girl.
[00:09:25] Yes.
[00:09:26] Mm.
[00:09:27] Okay.
[00:09:28] And then I didn't even go like, I went to prom with somebody I didn't even know.
[00:09:32] It was like a, my friend's girlfriend's friend.
[00:09:35] Cause I didn't ask anybody to go to prom with me.
[00:09:38] Not that I recall.
[00:09:39] Uh huh.
[00:09:40] Or maybe the girl that I liked already had a date.
[00:09:43] I don't remember.
[00:09:44] No.
[00:09:44] Something along those lines.
[00:09:46] And so I just didn't have a date.
[00:09:48] Mm.
[00:09:48] And then I just got hooked up with a blind date.
[00:09:51] So I showed up to prom with somebody I didn't had never met before.
[00:09:55] Uh, so that went about as well as you would think for a shy guy and a stranger.
[00:10:01] Plus I don't like dancing.
[00:10:03] I know.
[00:10:04] It's so sad.
[00:10:05] And part of that is like, I don't really have an excuse on this one.
[00:10:08] But to me, I was always very self-conscious of my height.
[00:10:11] And when.
[00:10:12] Oh no.
[00:10:13] You were so tall and handsome.
[00:10:15] Yeah.
[00:10:16] But I also couldn't dance.
[00:10:17] And you know what makes it worse?
[00:10:19] Standing out because you're so tall.
[00:10:21] Okay.
[00:10:22] That makes sense.
[00:10:23] But in reality, like I am not, I am six foot three.
[00:10:27] I would say I'm average height for like the guys that in my area.
[00:10:32] In Oklahoma?
[00:10:33] Yeah.
[00:10:33] Okay.
[00:10:34] So ladies, if you're tall and single, go to rural Oklahoma.
[00:10:39] There is a tall guy waiting there for you.
[00:10:41] He will either be salt of the earth, wonderful, or a mad head.
[00:10:44] You just don't know until you get there.
[00:10:47] But try.
[00:10:48] They're tall.
[00:10:49] Yeah.
[00:10:49] It's true.
[00:10:50] All of your friends from Oklahoma are so tall.
[00:10:52] Mm hmm.
[00:10:53] That's right.
[00:10:53] When they were there for the wedding, I remember being like, Oh my gosh, I'm around tall people.
[00:10:58] Again.
[00:10:59] And their wives are pretty tall too.
[00:11:00] Mm hmm.
[00:11:01] So that was fun to not be the only tall people.
[00:11:05] So I was always self-conscious of my height.
[00:11:07] Right.
[00:11:07] But in reality, if I stop and think about it, like all the other, not all of them, but like
[00:11:12] most of the other guys there were tall.
[00:11:13] So I wouldn't have stood out as much as I thought I did in my head.
[00:11:17] Okay.
[00:11:18] But I don't like dancing.
[00:11:19] So prom was a lot of me like standing in the corner.
[00:11:23] So, uh, very uneventful and, uh, nothing scandalous.
[00:11:28] No.
[00:11:28] Okay.
[00:11:29] Well, we can't pull that thread, but we'll get to it.
[00:11:31] Mm hmm.
[00:11:31] Okay.
[00:11:32] And then you went to college in state.
[00:11:34] Right?
[00:11:35] I went to several colleges.
[00:11:37] And you have like 87 degrees.
[00:11:38] I think.
[00:11:39] Every time we start talking about something new, you're like, Oh yeah, I have a degree
[00:11:43] in that.
[00:11:44] And at this point, I just assume like if it's out there, you probably have some form of degree
[00:11:49] or certification in it.
[00:11:51] Hmm.
[00:11:53] I have three degrees.
[00:11:55] Okay.
[00:11:57] Uh, but yeah, I, I moved around.
[00:12:00] Well, so I started dating my ex wife or what will become my ex wife, uh, in college.
[00:12:09] Okay.
[00:12:10] Uh, didn't you guys meet at church?
[00:12:12] Yes.
[00:12:13] Through a friend.
[00:12:14] Okay.
[00:12:15] Church.
[00:12:15] So we'll need to circle back to that.
[00:12:17] Okay.
[00:12:18] Cause church and girlfriend.
[00:12:19] Like, so she was from a different, she was from a different town.
[00:12:22] So for a while we lived in her hometown and then eventually moved back to my hometown.
[00:12:27] And when we lived in her hometown, like I went to college there.
[00:12:31] Um, while I worked, I always like you had jobs to pay for colleges.
[00:12:38] I went through college.
[00:12:39] So I think I've went to four, four different colleges, took classes at five different colleges.
[00:12:49] Yeah.
[00:12:49] So I just, I don't know.
[00:12:50] I moved around a lot as a kid and I moved around a lot as an adult, uh, that still hasn't
[00:12:55] stopped.
[00:12:55] So, uh, yeah.
[00:12:59] Um, but yeah, I met my, my, what would be ex wife in college.
[00:13:06] Were you at a Baptist church?
[00:13:09] Yes.
[00:13:09] Okay.
[00:13:10] So now talk to us about church.
[00:13:12] Cause you didn't start going to church until.
[00:13:16] It's when I moved to Oklahoma.
[00:13:17] So I started going to church, not right after I moved to Oklahoma.
[00:13:22] So I don't know, just for ease of numbers here, like I think I moved to Oklahoma, like when
[00:13:27] I was 10, but I didn't start going to church till I was like 12 or 13.
[00:13:34] Did your mom take you?
[00:13:35] She tried.
[00:13:36] Okay.
[00:13:37] And sometimes I would go, uh, she, I think she always went and I would go.
[00:13:41] And then eventually I was just like, I, I don't want to go.
[00:13:44] And I think, you know, by the time I was like, you know, 11 or 12, I had stayed home a lot
[00:13:50] anyways, being raised by a single parent.
[00:13:52] Like I was responsible kid.
[00:13:54] And so I stayed at home a lot by myself or with my younger siblings.
[00:14:00] So, um, eventually got to the point where it was like, sure, you can stay home while
[00:14:05] mom went to church.
[00:14:07] Uh, so yeah, like I started going to church consistently.
[00:14:10] Uh, I had family that went to that church, um, extended family.
[00:14:16] They went there.
[00:14:17] You move back to Oklahoma.
[00:14:18] Yeah.
[00:14:18] So my mom's family.
[00:14:20] Yeah.
[00:14:20] Like my mom's side of the family is from Oklahoma.
[00:14:24] Her, my grandparents lived there.
[00:14:26] Um, some, some other relatives, all lots of relatives lived in that area.
[00:14:31] So that's kind of how I ended up there.
[00:14:33] And then some of those relatives, most all of them went to that church that I grew up
[00:14:38] in.
[00:14:40] And at some point I was kind of like, well, I like, I like the people here.
[00:14:44] And you know, I got involved in the church.
[00:14:47] I started running the sound system there and I don't know, I just, I kind of fell into
[00:14:52] it.
[00:14:52] Uh, so I wouldn't say I was like coerced into going, like obviously my mom tried to
[00:14:58] get me to go for a bit and then I kind of went on my own after that.
[00:15:02] And then after, you know, I just started kind of going for the people, um, at least in my
[00:15:07] head.
[00:15:07] So that's how I feel.
[00:15:08] Mm hmm.
[00:15:11] And then when I was 18, I think I was still 18, what would be my ex wife, uh, showed up
[00:15:19] at church one day as a friend of your home church, right?
[00:15:24] Yeah.
[00:15:24] Okay.
[00:15:25] At my home church.
[00:15:26] Um, cause she was a friend of someone else that went there.
[00:15:30] Um, and so that's how we met.
[00:15:34] And that point, geez, I don't even remember.
[00:15:39] Like asked her out at some point and you know, we started dating and she, she was going
[00:15:46] to college somewhere else and then ended up switching over and going to college where
[00:15:52] I lived cause there was a university there.
[00:15:54] And then, yeah, so we were both going to university there and.
[00:16:00] And then you committed the unforgivable atrocity of moving in together.
[00:16:05] Kyle, how could you?
[00:16:06] Yes.
[00:16:08] I didn't feel bad about that at all.
[00:16:10] Okay.
[00:16:11] It made so much sense to me.
[00:16:12] And like, even though I was in church and they were, it was just, I wouldn't say they
[00:16:16] like harped on it and it was some like unforgivable sin.
[00:16:20] Like, I don't feel like that's how they pitched it.
[00:16:22] Um, but it was definitely not a condoned thing.
[00:16:26] Um, but I didn't care.
[00:16:28] I was like, this is, I mean, one from a financial standpoint, like I had to, like, I had to have
[00:16:34] a roommate.
[00:16:35] I couldn't afford to live and you know, I couldn't afford to live on my own.
[00:16:42] Um, and for a while there I was living with one of my distant relatives and.
[00:16:49] Was his, um, his girlfriend.
[00:16:52] Cause you guys would like get multi bedroom apartments, right?
[00:16:56] And then like several couples would live in it and like you had your own parts of.
[00:17:01] Yeah.
[00:17:01] Eventually.
[00:17:02] Yep.
[00:17:03] So when I met my ex, um, I was living with a distant cousin and I think once we started
[00:17:12] getting more serious, um, eventually moved it with like, we got an apartment together.
[00:17:19] You and your ex.
[00:17:20] Mm hmm.
[00:17:20] Yeah.
[00:17:21] There's, there's a lot that happened in there.
[00:17:23] Cause I, I ended up having like getting in a car accident and having a CT scan and finding
[00:17:28] out, I had like a birth defect, the congenital defect, um, that warranted having brain surgery.
[00:17:37] And so that was happening like my first or second year in college, like finals week, get in a
[00:17:43] car accident.
[00:17:44] Like, ta-da, look what's in your head.
[00:17:45] Um, till this point I'm like, I think I had, we had broken up at this point in time.
[00:17:53] That's what you told me.
[00:17:54] And I had, I had flown back to California to go see a specialist there and have surgery.
[00:18:01] Cause the specialist I saw in Oklahoma was like, I've never fixed one of these, but I can.
[00:18:06] I was like, no, I'm not going to be the Guinea pig for this.
[00:18:09] Like find me somebody that does this all the time.
[00:18:11] So, um, I ended up going to California and having surgery with some guy that like this,
[00:18:16] all he does.
[00:18:16] It was a, it was a major surgery too.
[00:18:19] Um, so at the end of all that I was staying with family out there in California when,
[00:18:24] when I had surgery and I was out there for a couple of months waiting for surgery and then
[00:18:29] recovery as well.
[00:18:30] So I dropped out of college.
[00:18:32] I was waiting around for the surgery.
[00:18:35] Um, ended up getting like a, a Christmas Eve surgery date because that was the only thing
[00:18:42] that was available for, I forget how long.
[00:18:45] I just put a bunch of stuff together about person.
[00:18:48] See, okay.
[00:18:50] Keep going.
[00:18:51] So yeah.
[00:18:52] Like when I got out of the hospital and I was still staying with family and like recovered
[00:18:59] from that, which took a couple of weeks to, to be mobile.
[00:19:03] Um, took a couple of years to recover from that.
[00:19:05] But I, I don't ask me why this happened.
[00:19:12] I called my ex and was like, can you come get me and drive me back to Oklahoma?
[00:19:17] So I can like, I just need to get back home.
[00:19:21] And I couldn't fly or didn't want to fly.
[00:19:24] I don't remember which one it was.
[00:19:25] I probably couldn't.
[00:19:25] I don't, yeah, I don't think I could.
[00:19:27] Um, and your mom was out there, but she had to go back at some point.
[00:19:31] Right.
[00:19:31] Yep.
[00:19:32] Yeah.
[00:19:32] She was there for the surgery.
[00:19:33] And then, so yeah, my ex flew out there or I flew her out there and then she drove.
[00:19:39] I, I, my truck got totaled in the accident.
[00:19:42] So I didn't even have a vehicle.
[00:19:44] So I actually bought a vehicle while I was in California off eBay back in the day.
[00:19:49] As we did.
[00:19:50] Yes.
[00:19:50] Uh, so I flew her out.
[00:19:53] She drove me and my truck back home.
[00:19:56] And then I ended up staying at my mom's house to like finish recovering.
[00:20:00] And at what point did you and your ex get back together?
[00:20:03] I.
[00:20:04] On the drive?
[00:20:06] No.
[00:20:06] Before the drive?
[00:20:06] After.
[00:20:07] After.
[00:20:08] Um, you know, we got, we got back together.
[00:20:12] We ended up living with my cousin and his girlfriend and wife.
[00:20:16] We both went to church.
[00:20:18] We were there every Sunday.
[00:20:18] I was still running the sound system when I could, like, obviously I had been gone for
[00:20:24] a couple months.
[00:20:25] And so I kind of handed the reins off at that point, but, um, still pretty involved in church
[00:20:31] through the entire time you were living unwed in all of the ways.
[00:20:38] Yeah.
[00:20:39] I don't like, yeah.
[00:20:40] And I don't remember getting like a bunch of flack for that, but I didn't, I don't,
[00:20:46] I didn't talk to people about that stuff.
[00:20:50] And I mean, that, that's one of the things is like, I was afraid I felt so comfortable
[00:20:55] doing that, like living with somebody that I was dating and, um, like it just felt like
[00:21:02] the right way to do life.
[00:21:10] Mm hmm.
[00:21:11] And then, you know, that was kind of one of the first things where I was like, okay,
[00:21:16] well I'm trying to go back to church.
[00:21:17] But like, I also know that I'm sitting doing this and sleeping with this person.
[00:21:24] How could you?
[00:21:25] Yeah.
[00:21:25] Right.
[00:21:26] And defrauding.
[00:21:29] I don't think either of us thought that way, but, um, but yeah, I mean, that was one of
[00:21:36] the first things is just like, I, I, I feel ashamed and, but for a reason that doesn't
[00:21:42] make any sense.
[00:21:42] Cause I am actually very comfortable that I'm doing the right thing and I feel okay about
[00:21:47] this situation that I've put myself in.
[00:21:50] Um, but you do have to like hide it when you go to church.
[00:21:54] So can we pause and rewind?
[00:21:58] Can you remember the first time you heard sex before marriage is bad is sin is evil?
[00:22:05] I mean, not specifically, but it was always there.
[00:22:09] Like general age range when you became aware of this.
[00:22:13] A teenager, 14, 15.
[00:22:15] Okay.
[00:22:16] Okay.
[00:22:16] But I, so that's a good segue.
[00:22:19] So when I was started going to church, say consistently, let's say like 13 or so, um,
[00:22:27] I would go to like youth camp and like church camps, a big thing out there.
[00:22:31] Like summer.
[00:22:32] Yeah.
[00:22:32] Like summer camp.
[00:22:33] Um, and in that neck of the woods, there's a huge, uh, church camp called falls Creek.
[00:22:41] Um, it's out in Western Oklahoma and that's like the big, that's the big deal.
[00:22:47] Um, it's like a, the entire summer there's camp going on with like, there's actually cabins and like buildings there that churches own.
[00:22:57] And then the least room, like the least, the building out to other churches, but you go there for a week at a time.
[00:23:03] Mm-hmm .
[00:23:04] So there's like, you know, whatever, 20 sessions or 20 weeks of camp, and I'm just making a number up here.
[00:23:10] But so essentially you go out there for a week and then like your church might sublet it the other 19 weeks.
[00:23:16] Um, but it's a, it's a huge ordeal.
[00:23:18] And then obviously when you're there, it's a lot of the buildings are set up to be separated, uh, rooms.
[00:23:26] Mm-hmm .
[00:23:27] So it's like one huge wing or side of the building is essentially bunks.
[00:23:33] It's just one huge room with bunks in it and like boys on one side, girls on the other side.
[00:23:37] So you definitely get a lot of the talks at that point.
[00:23:40] Mm-hmm .
[00:23:41] When you start going to church camp of, mm-hmm .
[00:23:43] Here's appropriate way to behave in public, you know, PDA and all that kind of stuff.
[00:23:50] Were you allowed to kiss or hold hands?
[00:23:52] No, uh, you could hold hands.
[00:23:54] Okay.
[00:23:54] You could hold hands.
[00:23:55] I don't recall very well the kissing rules.
[00:23:59] Uh, I know people had sex at church camp.
[00:24:02] There was definitely kissing and lots of other stuff going on that, you know, word spreads or someone's, you know, you get caught doing something like that.
[00:24:13] Um, but in general, like inside the walls of the, um, cabin you're in, uh, the sponsors as they call them, uh, the adults there kind of keep a close.
[00:24:24] Reign on that.
[00:24:25] And as I got older and like, I think I've went to, went to church camp as a sponsor the first time when I was like 18.
[00:24:33] Okay.
[00:24:33] Like I jumped straight into, I'm no longer a camper and now I'm a sponsor.
[00:24:37] And I was like leading devotions and stuff in the.
[00:24:41] I would pay money to.
[00:24:43] Oh, geez.
[00:24:46] Oh, you know, I was, I was a quiet kid, but I was, I, I studied, I didn't like school.
[00:24:56] Were you on fire for Jesus?
[00:24:58] No, I don't know what that is.
[00:25:00] Oh, you mean like.
[00:25:01] Yeah.
[00:25:02] Like zealous.
[00:25:03] That was the fire for Jesus.
[00:25:06] I would say that phrase of the nineties and early two thousands.
[00:25:09] I think you have a WWJD bracelet.
[00:25:12] Of course.
[00:25:13] Okay.
[00:25:14] Of course.
[00:25:14] It's like standard issue in Oklahoma.
[00:25:18] Uh, and yeah.
[00:25:20] So I was like rock and roll music.
[00:25:22] Like file.
[00:25:24] So simple.
[00:25:25] Right.
[00:25:26] Uh,
[00:25:27] it's got so many strongholds in your heart that I'm finding out about today.
[00:25:32] And you know, I got that from my parents.
[00:25:34] Like they listened to classic rock, like not, not heavy, crazy rock and roll stuff.
[00:25:40] Because they're authority figures, but they were also leading you down the path of evil.
[00:25:44] I mean, Bill's brain would explode.
[00:25:47] Yeah.
[00:25:47] What do we do?
[00:25:48] Um, continue.
[00:25:50] And so in the, in the process of like going to church, the, the language thing, like cussing
[00:25:57] was like a no, no.
[00:25:59] Um, and so there was a lot of emphasis on like language and then like secular music, which
[00:26:04] was a hard one for me.
[00:26:05] And eventually as a teenager, I kind of phased out of secular music and into like Christian
[00:26:14] rock and roll music.
[00:26:16] And then I started having a lot, I was wearing a lot of like rock and roll gear, but it was
[00:26:21] all like Christian bands.
[00:26:23] Um, and I had some, I had some Christian like belts and belt buckles and like the whole
[00:26:30] nine yards.
[00:26:30] Oh my God.
[00:26:31] Like Christian rocker, hardcore, uh, vibes going on.
[00:26:35] Okay.
[00:26:36] The belt buckles, like with the cross.
[00:26:38] Oh yeah.
[00:26:39] Oh yeah.
[00:26:39] Okay.
[00:26:41] Okay.
[00:26:42] I think it's, I think it's so interesting how Christians are like, I'm going to evangelize
[00:26:47] with my belt.
[00:26:48] Like this and that's how into it I am.
[00:26:50] Cause I've seen so many of those over the years.
[00:26:54] And I was like, I really got into the music part of it.
[00:26:58] I don't play instruments.
[00:26:59] I, I didn't sing in like the, the church choir for a short stint, but I can't actually
[00:27:07] sing.
[00:27:07] But when you're up there with like 30 people, why have you never told me this?
[00:27:12] It was a short stint, like maybe a year or so.
[00:27:15] That's not short in, in the world of like church choirs and trying to keep volunteers
[00:27:20] on board.
[00:27:20] You have to understand though.
[00:27:21] I went to a church that like a high attendance day was like a hundred people.
[00:27:26] Okay.
[00:27:26] But you were in the choir.
[00:27:28] 130 or so.
[00:27:28] Kyle was in the choir.
[00:27:30] Kyle was a robber dude.
[00:27:31] In the sound booth.
[00:27:32] And so it wasn't, I think when I was in the choir, like one of the other guys was having
[00:27:37] to run the sound booth.
[00:27:38] So.
[00:27:39] I mean, we're in the choir.
[00:27:40] Okay.
[00:27:41] I just, hang on.
[00:27:43] My brain's exploding.
[00:27:46] Wow.
[00:27:47] And we're talking like old school hymns.
[00:27:50] Like I'm in a, you were singing.
[00:27:52] Oh, old school.
[00:27:53] In the choir.
[00:27:55] Wait, what would you wear your, your rocker gear for that?
[00:27:58] Yeah.
[00:27:59] Yeah.
[00:27:59] Yeah.
[00:27:59] I was able to be myself there.
[00:28:01] I was just different than there.
[00:28:05] I mean, there was a lot of older people that went there that liked the old, old school.
[00:28:09] I don't know.
[00:28:09] We called them the red hymnal, which had like the real classic.
[00:28:12] Yes.
[00:28:12] It's the holier hymnal.
[00:28:14] Yes.
[00:28:14] The traditional hymns.
[00:28:15] Yes.
[00:28:16] And we had a green book.
[00:28:17] So evil, which was like, as the deer panteth for the water.
[00:28:21] That's on.
[00:28:22] No, I know it.
[00:28:24] I know it.
[00:28:25] Uh, saying that one on the stage.
[00:28:27] Um, it's too contemporary.
[00:28:30] Yeah.
[00:28:31] And so we, we had a delicate balance in the church of how many songs came out of the red
[00:28:36] and the green book.
[00:28:37] As one does.
[00:28:38] Yes.
[00:28:39] Um, you were in the fucking quiet.
[00:28:42] Oh my God.
[00:28:44] I'm going to wake up at like 4am tonight slash tomorrow morning thinking about this.
[00:28:49] That's right.
[00:28:50] I'll just start pulling these hymnans out and start humming them randomly throughout the
[00:28:54] day.
[00:28:58] But I really started getting into like the music side of it.
[00:29:01] Like I, I, you know, I would do devotionals and like have student Bibles that had, you
[00:29:09] know, all the questions in them and go through and answer those types of things and, and follow
[00:29:14] these kinds of devotional books.
[00:29:17] But it wasn't, I didn't really connect with that stuff as well as like the music.
[00:29:21] I liked the music.
[00:29:23] And when I was listening to like Christian rock music, like it was, I was really invested
[00:29:29] into like the lyrics of these Christian songs, but they're, I mean, they're not hymn songs
[00:29:34] like this is like rock and roll music, just like Christian rock and roll music.
[00:29:39] So that's, then I kind of started slowly reaching out and it was like, okay, well this
[00:29:46] band is like made of Christian band members, but they're, it's not a Christian band.
[00:29:52] But I was like, Oh, I like that.
[00:29:54] Like that.
[00:29:54] Like that.
[00:29:56] And then it was like, okay, well let's find some other bands that don't cuss and the lyrics
[00:30:01] aren't bad, but they're not Christian.
[00:30:06] Slippery slope.
[00:30:07] It was like, that was my, like part of my decline out of there.
[00:30:10] It was like, well, I, I, I intentionally stopped listening to secular music to listen to like
[00:30:15] Christian music.
[00:30:16] And then I kind of weaseled myself back out of it and was like, no, like I, I like this
[00:30:22] music.
[00:30:23] So.
[00:30:25] Okay.
[00:30:25] I have so many different things.
[00:30:27] The first thing we need to talk about is what were those Bibles that were so cool in
[00:30:32] the nineties that like, did your church give you Bibles?
[00:30:35] If you did whatever good Christian kid thing, you'd get like rewarded with a Bible.
[00:30:41] Hmm.
[00:30:41] I don't think so.
[00:30:42] Okay.
[00:30:43] The non-cult church we attended did that and they were like sparkly adventure Bibles, or
[00:30:48] I don't know.
[00:30:49] They had like a, a neon glow year, a desk.
[00:30:52] I don't know.
[00:30:53] The cover was really cool and it sparkled.
[00:30:55] And I earned one for something I did.
[00:30:57] And I think we had to throw it away cause it was NIV.
[00:31:00] Oh, so I was just wondering if you got to, if you got one of those and if you got to keep
[00:31:03] it.
[00:31:04] No, I don't ever recall.
[00:31:07] Cause it had the questions in it.
[00:31:07] Like you were talking about.
[00:31:08] Yeah.
[00:31:08] No, I mean that was never like provided at the church I went to, but it was pretty, like
[00:31:14] I said, it was pretty small rural church and it didn't have a lot of money.
[00:31:19] Like the people that went there didn't have a lot of money.
[00:31:22] Like this was by no means like, you know, today's mega church kind of thing going on.
[00:31:26] So there wasn't a lot of freebies, you know, the biggest perk, if you want to call it that,
[00:31:32] that happened to that church was just like, we ate a lot of food.
[00:31:35] Like every Sunday after church, it was like food time as a, as a growing boy, like food
[00:31:43] time.
[00:31:44] Mm hmm.
[00:31:45] So that was also a draw for me.
[00:31:48] I ate a lot of food.
[00:31:50] I was surprised when you said you went for the people earlier, which is really sweet and
[00:31:54] wonderful.
[00:31:55] I thought you were going to say you went for the food.
[00:31:57] Oh, I mean, I was definitely going for the food sometimes speaking in the Bible's part,
[00:32:01] like the, we didn't get Bibles given to us.
[00:32:06] Um, not that I recall, but in Oklahoma and I, I don't know if this is like a Midwest thing
[00:32:14] or what, but there was like a Christian bookstore in Tulsa, like called Mardell.
[00:32:20] Uh, I think that's a chain, but they had, I mean, it was like the size of a target or something.
[00:32:27] And it just had music and t-shirts and instruments and all kinds of crazy stuff, like everything
[00:32:33] Christian related.
[00:32:34] And so like, that was kind of our, our guilty pleasure in that area.
[00:32:39] It was like going up there and like getting a, finding a, one of those NIV student Bibles
[00:32:43] up there in devotional books and that kind of stuff up there.
[00:32:49] So what I think that, let's see, I don't think we had that brand of, um, or that chain
[00:32:59] of bookstores where I grew up, but there was, I think it was like life way or life something.
[00:33:04] It always had life in it.
[00:33:05] Uh, and we were allowed to go in there, but everything had to be like vetted to make sure
[00:33:11] it wasn't NIV or like even the little poster cards that would have a painting or whatever
[00:33:19] with the Bible verse on it.
[00:33:21] We had to make sure that those were always in KJB.
[00:33:25] They couldn't be anything else.
[00:33:26] Cause King James version only.
[00:33:28] And there was others like, yeah, we couldn't do any of the music in there.
[00:33:33] None of the t-shirts and the bands that was all bad, but I think I had a similar like experience
[00:33:40] with Christian music.
[00:33:41] So I grew up in classical music hymns only.
[00:33:44] And then eventually got into after college into, um, like praise and worship music and
[00:33:53] then praise and worship music with a backbeat.
[00:33:55] And then bands who had Christians in them.
[00:33:59] And then, you know, just from there.
[00:34:01] But then during the early years of my previous marriage, when we were like trying to go back
[00:34:06] to church and all that, like we talked about, I started listening to Christian radio stations
[00:34:11] and they would do this thing that like, I am curious your thoughts about this.
[00:34:17] If you're like, make a pledge to only listen to Christian radio for the next 30 days, make
[00:34:23] a pledge with God.
[00:34:25] And I, and at the time it was like, yes, they care about my spiritual formation.
[00:34:30] But now like 12, 14 years later, I'm like, yeah, that's really great for them for monetary
[00:34:37] purposes.
[00:34:38] If you only listen to their radio station.
[00:34:41] Mm hmm.
[00:34:42] Yeah.
[00:34:42] That's just one of those complex things about religion.
[00:34:46] Yeah.
[00:34:46] Is that it, even with the best intentions.
[00:34:52] It's still cash a lot.
[00:34:54] Well, it can, it can.
[00:34:56] I think that's the point is like, yeah, they may have had pure intentions doing that, but
[00:35:01] at the same time, like they could also not have pure intentions and you don't know which
[00:35:06] one you're going to get or like what's happening there.
[00:35:08] But then, okay.
[00:35:10] So teenager camp, no sex, no kissing at camp, no sex in general.
[00:35:16] And at what age did you start thinking like, okay, purity culture does not make sense to
[00:35:22] me.
[00:35:22] Not having sex before marriage doesn't make sense to me.
[00:35:25] And at what age did you decide like, no, I'm definitely gonna sleep with someone before
[00:35:30] I marry them or like live with someone before I marry them.
[00:35:34] So I don't know that that happened overnight.
[00:35:39] I don't know.
[00:35:39] That's something that I really wrestled with as much as I started dating a girl pretty seriously.
[00:35:46] And the thing is just kind of like escalated quickly.
[00:35:50] And I think I was, I don't know, 19 or 20.
[00:35:54] First time I had sex.
[00:35:57] So young.
[00:36:00] Uh, I don't know.
[00:36:02] I remember kids in school having sex way before that.
[00:36:05] I'm comparing you to like cult stuff.
[00:36:08] Yes.
[00:36:08] Yeah.
[00:36:09] Um, and yeah, I wasn't married.
[00:36:13] It was so evil.
[00:36:14] It was with the girl that would become my wife.
[00:36:19] So at that point, like when I, when we actually had sex, like it wasn't like day two of dating.
[00:36:25] It was, I don't know, a couple months into it.
[00:36:29] And we were definitely on the whole, like no sex before marriage train.
[00:36:34] Until you weren't.
[00:36:35] Until we weren't.
[00:36:36] And then it was just like, well, we're going to get married.
[00:36:38] So let's just have sex kind of thing.
[00:36:41] I, I heard that a lot from Christian couples who would come to me.
[00:36:44] I don't know why they came to me, but they would ask me like, Amanda, we're going to have sex.
[00:36:49] Are we going to go to hell?
[00:36:50] And I'm like, well, obviously, because that's what I knew at the time.
[00:36:54] Yeah.
[00:36:54] Um, I hopefully said it way better than that, but they were like, they're always like, yeah,
[00:36:59] but we know like in our hearts, we're married.
[00:37:03] We know we're going to get married or in our hearts, we're already married.
[00:37:06] And I don't know.
[00:37:07] I just, I'm glad people felt like they could come to me with those questions.
[00:37:10] I was in my early twenties and didn't know what the fuck I was talking about, but I was
[00:37:15] very much on the like, no sex till marriage train.
[00:37:18] So they were probably like, well, it's running by the most hardcore person we know.
[00:37:24] I'm sure they were just looking for someone to tell them no or tell them they shouldn't.
[00:37:29] Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, I agree.
[00:37:34] That's probably like a prevalent, uh, behavior within, at least from my experiences that like,
[00:37:41] you know, once you're dating for a few months, people can tend to overlook the purity culture
[00:37:48] thing.
[00:37:49] Once they get a feel enough for the other person that like, Hey, there's like, this is real
[00:37:53] and serious.
[00:37:54] So like, why not?
[00:37:57] Like, you do feel like that whole, like you're married, you're going to be married or you're
[00:38:02] already connected somehow in, in a permanent long, long-term relationship kind of way.
[00:38:10] Uh, so yeah, like that happened.
[00:38:12] And at that point it's like, it's, it's done.
[00:38:16] There was a lot of shame associated with that.
[00:38:19] There was, uh, yeah, just cause like I had, you know, I had a couple of years worth of,
[00:38:26] of being told like, don't do that.
[00:38:29] And I was already living with this person.
[00:38:33] We hadn't had sex for months.
[00:38:36] Mm hmm.
[00:38:36] And I mean, I don't know, six, eight months, something like that.
[00:38:39] Like it wasn't quick.
[00:38:40] Mm hmm.
[00:38:41] And then I think we dated for like, I don't remember dates.
[00:38:45] I have to think real hard about this.
[00:38:47] I feel like we dated for like a year and a half or something before we got married.
[00:38:51] So you got married the first time and no one was allowed to know about it, right?
[00:38:54] Oh God.
[00:38:55] Yes.
[00:38:55] So I don't, I got married the first time, like in a courthouse kind of just under, under the
[00:39:06] radar.
[00:39:07] Uh, no one really knew her mom knew.
[00:39:09] I think I told my mom, like, you weren't allowed to tell anyone else, right?
[00:39:14] Yeah.
[00:39:15] Like she wanted to keep it a secret.
[00:39:16] And I like, I don't know why I even like went along with that.
[00:39:20] I didn't really care.
[00:39:22] Um, it was just like, well, I want to get married.
[00:39:26] So, um, like, let's just do it.
[00:39:29] And then I think she had a lot of shame around something.
[00:39:33] Uh, me, I don't know.
[00:39:35] I have no idea.
[00:39:36] So that's that, that went under the radar.
[00:39:39] And then we actually had like a formal ceremony the following year, like at church.
[00:39:45] And we had like the wedding reception and all that kind of stuff.
[00:39:48] Uh, and people were allowed to know about that.
[00:39:51] Yeah.
[00:39:52] Yeah.
[00:39:53] And I don't remember the story that I told in that period.
[00:39:57] Um, you know, some of that was some of that for me, at least for me, it was from a, like
[00:40:03] a financial standpoint.
[00:40:04] Like we were both poor kids from, from rural Oklahoma and getting married meant we got scholarships
[00:40:12] and grants that we didn't have before.
[00:40:15] And so it, the, both of us, it was like beneficial to actually get married for our education, uh,
[00:40:23] right, wrong or indifferent.
[00:40:24] Like that is the thought process that we had.
[00:40:26] And so I, that was definitely a factor in us moving forward and getting married.
[00:40:31] And I think part of the whole just getting married in a courthouse thing was financially motivated.
[00:40:39] So on your part, there was emotional attachment.
[00:40:42] Like you were in love.
[00:40:42] Right.
[00:40:43] But the timing was financially motivated.
[00:40:45] Yes.
[00:40:46] Okay.
[00:40:47] Yeah.
[00:40:47] And then eventually it was like, okay, well, sure.
[00:40:51] We got married in a courthouse so that we get our school paid for, uh, eventually we
[00:40:58] were like, okay, well now we got to have like a actual ceremonies.
[00:41:01] People like, no, we're married.
[00:41:03] And then like, I, I felt like we were hiding it for like a year.
[00:41:08] Um, but yeah, throughout that whole thing, like as soon as I had sex, it was just like,
[00:41:12] a lot of shame, like, Oh shit.
[00:41:14] Like you can't, can't put that genie back in the bottle.
[00:41:17] And you lose your virginity one time.
[00:41:21] And based on the teachings in church and the, I don't know, I don't know the wording
[00:41:29] for this, but like just everything I was taught, like it was like, well, I done fucked up
[00:41:33] and I can't do anything about this now.
[00:41:36] Like, do I eject on like the relationship?
[00:41:38] Like what the hell do you do now?
[00:41:40] Like you've committed this huge sin that you can't undo no matter what.
[00:41:49] And, and so at that point it was just like, fuck it.
[00:41:51] I'm going to run with it.
[00:41:53] Okay.
[00:41:54] So we have to talk about a bunch of stuff then.
[00:41:56] Cause you talk about like all the shame when you had sex outside of marriage, but
[00:42:02] but you also talk about how like you thought it was okay.
[00:42:07] So like Kyle as a person was okay with living with your ex and, or your now ex and having sex
[00:42:16] and all of those things.
[00:42:17] You thought it made sense.
[00:42:19] Like in terms of progression of the relationship, moving in together financially, the emotions,
[00:42:25] long-term plans for your relationship.
[00:42:27] Like that, how like being in a sexual relationship made sense and living together made sense.
[00:42:33] Yes.
[00:42:34] And then when you put the layer of religion on top of it, that's where the shame came in.
[00:42:39] Yeah.
[00:42:39] And it didn't jive like, and it wasn't, if I would have followed those rules, like it would
[00:42:45] have made life harder for me.
[00:42:47] Um, in, in several different ways, like my mainly like financially would have made my life
[00:42:53] a lot harder than it already was.
[00:42:58] And I like, that wasn't something I was willing to like sacrifice, like the financial stability part of it.
[00:43:06] And the quality of life improvements that come along with financial stability.
[00:43:12] Um, and not having a lot of money growing up anyways, like it wasn't, wasn't like homeless and poor kind of poor, but like
[00:43:20] not didn't have a lot of money.
[00:43:23] Um, and like, that just wasn't something I was willing to sacrifice for the sake of the narrative of church.
[00:43:32] And it felt right to me and I was okay with that.
[00:43:38] And that's where I was just like, fuck it.
[00:43:40] I'm going to run with it.
[00:43:41] Like, okay.
[00:43:42] Like I'll, I keep, I kept going to church for a little bit, but at that point I was already withdrawn a little bit.
[00:43:50] Like I was more reserved while I was there and it was just kind of going, going with the flow.
[00:43:56] Like I wasn't teaching anymore.
[00:43:58] I wasn't.
[00:43:58] And this is all because you'd had sex and you knew like, yeah, you weren't supposed to do that anymore.
[00:44:04] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:04] Per church rules.
[00:44:06] Yeah.
[00:44:07] Um, but I also felt like I was kind of at that point, I felt like an imposter because I had broken the rules.
[00:44:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:15] And mainly just with the sex before marriage, the living with someone like that, that I didn't feel very ashamed about.
[00:44:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:26] But at that point I was like, I can't, I can't do both.
[00:44:29] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:30] And one of these feels right.
[00:44:31] And the other one makes me feel ashamed.
[00:44:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:34] And so that's kind of the turning point for me in which I just started stepping it back.
[00:44:40] And then I was just like going with the flow.
[00:44:43] And then once you're not committed at that point, you know, not to the extent that you used to be or somebody that's like very religious, like once you're not committed and believe that like wholeheartedly, it's easy to just keep stepping back.
[00:45:00] So, so it sounds like deconstruction or walking away from church and or Christianity or all of the above didn't start with like, I disagree with these biblical teachings as much except purity culture.
[00:45:19] Like that was the big thing for you that made you start to go like, eh, this doesn't make sense to me.
[00:45:27] And then as you step back, were there more things that didn't make sense to you or was it all just purity culture?
[00:45:32] Um, there were enough things that I heard in church that I was just like, this doesn't seem right.
[00:45:40] It wasn't like earth shattering where it was just like, nope, I'm out of here and I'm going to walk out the doors as soon as I heard this.
[00:45:45] Like there wasn't anything that hit me that hard, but like the women can't be pastors like that.
[00:45:54] I was just like, that doesn't, I don't, that seems weird to me.
[00:45:58] Like that, that is, that didn't seem normal to me.
[00:46:02] That was, that was sexism to me.
[00:46:05] And even, even as a teenager, I was like, you're, you're intentionally creating this divide with half the, half the population.
[00:46:12] And I don't know that I believe that shit, but that was obviously very strong in, in Baptist.
[00:46:19] Like, I don't know of a single Baptist woman pastor.
[00:46:23] There are some denominations.
[00:46:24] But they're like the evil progressive.
[00:46:26] Well, no, they're Baptist.
[00:46:27] They're like factions within the Baptist denomination, but they're, you know, the evil ones.
[00:46:32] Yeah.
[00:46:34] Um, so when there was things like that, there was, you know, sort of the whole music thing.
[00:46:41] There was the not living together, no sex before marriage.
[00:46:46] One of the hard ones for me is I kind of got married out of a financial benefit and I was still going to church.
[00:46:55] We were going to church at the time and it was like, okay, we got a tithe.
[00:47:02] And I did that, but it was painful.
[00:47:04] Painful.
[00:47:05] Yeah.
[00:47:05] Like same.
[00:47:06] Even giving 20 bucks, which at the time, sometimes that was 10% of my income.
[00:47:12] Like I remember getting checks for the week being 140 bucks or $200 for the week, part-time work.
[00:47:20] But like getting rid of 20 bucks, I was like, that's food for a week.
[00:47:24] That was, yeah.
[00:47:25] I mean, if you ate ramen noodles, that could be food for a week.
[00:47:28] But like, you know, it was definitely like three or four meals worth of food.
[00:47:34] And that was always just, that was so disruptive to my life.
[00:47:39] And I just couldn't, I didn't, I never felt good about that.
[00:47:44] Yeah.
[00:47:44] Like it never, I never felt like that was going to see a return on that investment spiritual or not.
[00:47:51] Like that created such a hardship for me, but that was never mentioned.
[00:47:57] Like they never said, well, tithe if you can.
[00:48:00] Yeah.
[00:48:01] It was, no, you need to tithe.
[00:48:02] In faith that the Lord will return.
[00:48:05] Right.
[00:48:05] And so I had a lot of that and tithe for a while.
[00:48:10] And then eventually it was just like, I stopped doing that.
[00:48:12] Like it's one of those things that I just stopped doing.
[00:48:15] And then I felt more shame about that because I'm there, you know, partaking of food or being a part of the church, which is, it is funded by the people that go there and tithe.
[00:48:30] Like that's where the money comes from.
[00:48:31] So now I'm like leeching off of this social group, religious social group.
[00:48:38] And then there was shame with that.
[00:48:41] Like it just, all of it just steamrolled and it was just a bunch of little pieces that I'd never felt good about these things.
[00:48:51] I think you, you've shared with me as well, like how churches allocated funds didn't sit right with you in some cases.
[00:49:01] Yeah.
[00:49:01] And like the, like my younger years, like as a kid or a teenager, like the church I went to didn't, they didn't do that.
[00:49:10] Like there was no extravagance there at all.
[00:49:13] Like it was always in the same building.
[00:49:17] I think they might've like remodeled once and got like new pews and carpet or something, which they needed.
[00:49:23] But it wasn't like we were adding mega wings on there and, you know, got a cafeteria and a Starbucks in there.
[00:49:29] It was never like that.
[00:49:30] It was a tiny church.
[00:49:31] So I never really saw that waste that I would consider waste.
[00:49:35] Um, and then as I, I grew up and got married and, and moved around, um, and lived in some larger cities and started to, and then my home was too far away.
[00:49:46] Um, you know, I started finding new church homes and the music was awesome and the show was awesome.
[00:49:54] And I still would try to, I was still trying to like be a Christian.
[00:50:01] And then I, I got exposed to the, the misappropriation of funds in church.
[00:50:09] And that was like a, that was a huge one for me.
[00:50:12] And I hadn't had that experience in like the first decade of being a Christian.
[00:50:17] And then I started going to these mega churches and I'm like, this building has to cost like millions of dollars.
[00:50:23] And there's a thousand people in here and they're all giving, you know, I'm smart enough to know, like they're all giving 10%.
[00:50:31] And like, you know, so at some point I kind of did the math and I was like, holy shit, that's a lot of money.
[00:50:40] And like, what the hell are they doing with it?
[00:50:41] And it was, I, I bounced around churches a lot and I eventually settled at a church that wasn't doing that.
[00:50:49] I intentionally sought out a church that appeared to be spending a lot of their funds on humanitarian work.
[00:51:00] And I'm sure there was a religious aspect to that, but I ended up at a biker church or a church that had a lot of folks that rode motorcycles,
[00:51:09] but they also spent like their big mission thing was like drilling wells in like third world countries,
[00:51:16] like community wells and like providing clean water in these places.
[00:51:20] I'm like, I can get behind that.
[00:51:22] Like, I feel like that's a good use of tithing money.
[00:51:27] And sure.
[00:51:28] Like the facility was nice.
[00:51:29] It wasn't overly extravagant.
[00:51:32] It was a nice building.
[00:51:39] And like, you know, playgrounds for the kids and all that kind of stuff.
[00:51:42] But I felt like they were actually using their money to like help humanity.
[00:51:47] And so like, that was a lot, that was like my last stop in Christianity.
[00:51:52] And then I eventually moved away from there and I couldn't attend church there anymore.
[00:51:56] And that was kind of like, that was kind of the end of the road for me.
[00:52:00] So it was more like a slow fade for you.
[00:52:01] It wasn't like, okay, I'm going to stop going to this church.
[00:52:05] I've been attending every Sunday, even though I live here.
[00:52:08] It was more like, okay, I moved.
[00:52:10] And so, yeah.
[00:52:11] So say I started going to church at like 13.
[00:52:15] Was I 23?
[00:52:18] No, 20.
[00:52:19] I was, I think it was 25 or 26.
[00:52:21] I moved to Massachusetts.
[00:52:22] My ex-wife got into med school to be an eye doctor and moved to Massachusetts.
[00:52:30] Well, now I'm going from the Bible belt to New England.
[00:52:33] Which Christians call, oh, what is, oh, there's a special term for like how unchurched that area is.
[00:52:40] Yes.
[00:52:40] And so I found out pretty quickly, like we got there and then we tried to find a church home.
[00:52:45] And like the one, I think non-denominational church we went to was just like, I don't know, felt sketchy.
[00:52:52] It wasn't nice.
[00:52:55] The people weren't very nice.
[00:52:57] Most of the churches, they like, they have a handful of churches, which seem like an extremely small number compared to where I come from, where there's like one.
[00:53:07] You could throw a rock and hit five different churches into a huge city and there's hardly any churches there.
[00:53:16] And then the churches that are there are scattered all over the religious spectrum of like, yeah, you know, there might be one Baptist church and like one, you know, Methodist church and a couple Catholic churches.
[00:53:28] And then, you know, some other religions there.
[00:53:32] But it definitely wasn't like, okay, well, we just moved to a town of, I don't know, 300,000 people and there's 94 Southern Baptist churches to choose from.
[00:53:42] It was like there was one and I didn't like it.
[00:53:45] So that was.
[00:53:47] Yeah.
[00:53:47] I kind of moved myself into a situation where I was like, okay, well, there's no, there's nothing here for me.
[00:53:53] And so another piece of this whole religious thing was like no alcohol.
[00:53:57] And I had never had alcohol until I moved to Massachusetts.
[00:54:00] I was 27 years old the first time I even tried alcohol.
[00:54:03] You were older than I was.
[00:54:04] Yeah.
[00:54:05] So like I kept that one for a long time for not just spiritual reasons.
[00:54:11] There was bad experiences with that in, in my personal life anyways.
[00:54:17] So, um, and like a family history of like alcoholism.
[00:54:22] So I just kind of steered away from that one anyways.
[00:54:24] But then I tried alcohol for the first time at like 27 and I didn't have a church and I, I could manage that without it being a dangerous thing.
[00:54:36] And so I was just going to shame.
[00:54:38] No, I didn't.
[00:54:39] I, I tried it and was like, okay, well, I can, I can handle this.
[00:54:43] And I had fun, um, and I can have enough self-control to be able to do this.
[00:54:49] And yeah, I mean, that, that was, I would say that like trying alcohol for the first time was kind of like my last, uh, last experience with religion.
[00:55:03] Um, and I did never really went back after that.
[00:55:07] I was kind of jaded about it after that.
[00:55:10] Uh, and I feel like I had checked a couple of the boxes that were big no-nos and I was okay.
[00:55:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:55:18] That's so interesting.
[00:55:22] Um, because like how you look at it seems to be, there were all of these things that were like huge no's and your life is going to fall apart if you, if you do them.
[00:55:32] And then you slowly did them over time and nothing fell apart and you felt okay within yourself about it.
[00:55:38] Mm-hmm.
[00:55:38] And that's how you slowly decided like you didn't.
[00:55:42] Yeah.
[00:55:42] Like what words would you put on it?
[00:55:44] Like you didn't need religion to keep you on track or you didn't need.
[00:55:47] I didn't want the shame that was associated with it.
[00:55:49] I was, I had been told like you must not do these things or these things are evil and you know, whatever reason, like the devil's going to come after you and you're going to become a bad person if you do these things.
[00:56:04] And then I started, I kind of started experimenting on my own with these types of things.
[00:56:08] And then I was just like, there's a healthy way to do these things.
[00:56:10] I'm not advocating like if you don't want to drink alcohol, like don't drink alcohol.
[00:56:15] Like if you do like be responsible, but it wasn't like, oh, I had a, I had a Jack and Coke and my whole life fell to ruins and I'm a alcoholic and everybody hates me.
[00:56:33] And I just need Jesus.
[00:56:35] Yeah.
[00:56:36] Like, and I did, I just didn't want the shame that was associated with it.
[00:56:41] And I was, I was experimenting with these things and I was, I felt okay.
[00:56:45] And I had peace in myself around these things.
[00:56:49] And I was like, the only part I feel bad about is the religious pressure on me that this isn't okay.
[00:56:56] And I don't know what, I don't see why this isn't okay.
[00:57:00] Other than someone said not to do it.
[00:57:03] So question for you, because like, I think that there are a lot of Christians these days who do drink, who have sex before marriage, who live together before marriage.
[00:57:15] Um, maybe even don't tie the, like some of those things.
[00:57:20] And they would probably listen to your story and be like, okay, totally makes sense.
[00:57:22] So like, why can't you just be a Christian then?
[00:57:26] Uh, so that's a good, that's a good question.
[00:57:29] And I, I saw that even as like a teenager, I would know, I knew that there were like men that were at the church that would have a beer while they watch football after, after church on Sunday.
[00:57:42] But you're not supposed to drink.
[00:57:44] And they were still going there and still, you know, teaching these teachings.
[00:57:51] Mm-hmm.
[00:57:53] But I was like, I can't like, what the hell is happening here when there's people intentionally doing things you're not supposed to do?
[00:58:02] And then they still show up and then it's just like, well, forgive me for I sinned.
[00:58:07] Or they would just hide it.
[00:58:10] And I'm just like, it's not.
[00:58:11] Yeah.
[00:58:12] It's not like I saw these guys out there shit face at the bar.
[00:58:16] It was like, no, they were just having a beer while they watched football after, after Sunday church.
[00:58:21] But they were still teaching don't drink.
[00:58:24] Mm.
[00:58:25] Or like that kind of concept.
[00:58:26] No, they, the guys I saw doing it weren't involved in the church.
[00:58:30] They were there, but they weren't, uh, part of the church, uh, working there.
[00:58:36] It wasn't a pastor doing that.
[00:58:37] Right.
[00:58:38] It wasn't like the deacons doing that.
[00:58:39] It was just like other guys.
[00:58:40] So I guess back to my question, like, why can't you still be a Christian?
[00:58:43] Because the whole premise of, to me, all the teachings that were in the church was like,
[00:58:49] you can't do it.
[00:58:50] Like you, you can't do this and be a Christian.
[00:58:54] Or if you're a Christian, you shouldn't be doing those things.
[00:58:57] And I'm like, oh, I don't see the problem with doing those things.
[00:59:00] Okay.
[00:59:01] Therefore I can't commit to like following, following something that is also going to shame
[00:59:06] me for something that I don't feel bad about doing.
[00:59:09] So for you, it's this prescriptive nature of, of religion around behavior.
[00:59:17] Religion prescribed certain behaviors that you don't think should be like.
[00:59:23] Demonized.
[00:59:24] Okay.
[00:59:25] Okay.
[00:59:26] I mean, alcohol is a good one.
[00:59:28] Like it's, I wouldn't say alcohol is a great thing.
[00:59:31] Like it messes with your body.
[00:59:33] It makes you lose self-control.
[00:59:35] It decreases your, your decision-making skills.
[00:59:39] Like there's a lot of bad things about alcohol.
[00:59:43] So for them to say, you shouldn't drink alcohol.
[00:59:47] Like in some senses, I get it.
[00:59:50] In other senses, I'm like, I, the, the, the reason why you're demonizing it is not the
[00:59:58] same reasons why I think it should be demonized.
[01:00:03] That makes sense.
[01:00:04] Cause they're making it like, if you do that, it's a moral failure.
[01:00:07] Whereas you're like, well, you need to think about associated health risks and be responsible
[01:00:14] and drink safely.
[01:00:15] Yeah.
[01:00:16] For me, I couldn't see the point in maintaining the faith and partaking in that when I didn't,
[01:00:23] I didn't believe the same thing they, they did.
[01:00:28] Okay.
[01:00:28] And it's just like, but that's not a, see, I've got to push deeper on this.
[01:00:32] Cause I'm, I'm very interested.
[01:00:33] That's not Christianity though.
[01:00:35] Like those are, those are facets of the belief system, but it's like, believe in Jesus and
[01:00:39] you will be saved.
[01:00:41] Like, where do you stand on that?
[01:00:42] So this comes back to the whole, uh, what's the, what's the word?
[01:00:48] Like everything in the Bible is correct.
[01:00:50] Oh, inerrancy.
[01:00:51] Inerrancy.
[01:00:51] Like that, that I was taught.
[01:00:53] Like the inerrancy thing was pretty solid.
[01:00:56] And, and that was another key factor.
[01:00:59] And it's like, if the church is saying this and, and the church is part of the religion
[01:01:07] and this is what they're pushing and inerrancy is a thing, then to me, I, I, I almost kept
[01:01:16] that inerrancy belief of like, it's all or nothing.
[01:01:23] Interesting.
[01:01:24] And since there was so many cracks in it that I saw was like, Oh, I can't believe that.
[01:01:28] And I don't believe this.
[01:01:29] And I don't believe they should like, I don't believe this restriction.
[01:01:32] I don't believe all these things.
[01:01:36] And then I'm not all in.
[01:01:40] Mm-hmm.
[01:01:41] And I don't want to be on the fence about it.
[01:01:43] Mm-hmm.
[01:01:43] Which you also get demonized for being on the fence about things.
[01:01:46] You're a lukewarm Christian.
[01:01:48] Right.
[01:01:48] Yeah, exactly.
[01:01:49] And so it was just like, I don't.
[01:01:51] You have to be hot for Jesus, Kyle.
[01:01:52] Yeah.
[01:01:53] Which sounds so bad.
[01:01:54] I mean, there was a lot of pressure for that too.
[01:01:55] And it's just like, I, I eventually was not hot and I was just like, I, I, this doesn't
[01:02:04] make any sense anymore.
[01:02:05] And I don't, I would say I probably still haven't processed all of that to like, come
[01:02:10] to a clear conclusion on this.
[01:02:12] So I don't know how good this I'm doing, explaining all of this, but it's just like,
[01:02:15] there was enough things that didn't add up.
[01:02:18] Mm-hmm.
[01:02:18] And at the end of the day, like that equation didn't make sense anymore.
[01:02:22] So I think I listened back to what you were saying at the end of last week's episode when
[01:02:26] I was like, I don't think that makes sense.
[01:02:27] But I listened back.
[01:02:28] And so it sounded like what you were saying last week is like, you kept having to justify
[01:02:36] aspects of Christianity.
[01:02:37] You weren't talking about like, I'm justifying my behaviors.
[01:02:40] You were, what you were saying last week is you kept trying to like justify the religion
[01:02:44] and aspects of the religion.
[01:02:46] And eventually you could not anymore.
[01:02:48] Mm-hmm.
[01:02:48] Like you could no longer justify this element of Christianity and that element of it.
[01:02:53] Like I tried bending it to make it make sense.
[01:02:56] Mm-hmm.
[01:02:57] And I couldn't, I could never do it.
[01:03:00] Okay.
[01:03:01] So that's interesting because I feel like we, we had very different processes for how
[01:03:09] we ended up in a, I don't know, you'll have to tell me what you decide about where you
[01:03:14] landed.
[01:03:14] I had a very different process for how we decided like what I think about Jesus and salvation
[01:03:18] and God and, and, and the Bible and all of those things.
[01:03:22] Like, do you, you don't have to give like full answers, but like just yes, no.
[01:03:26] Like, do you feel like, you know what you believe about if there's a God and if Jesus is real
[01:03:30] and if you need salvation to go to heaven and if heaven is real and if hell is real and
[01:03:35] like, do you have, do you know?
[01:03:37] Should we answer that?
[01:03:38] Should we save that for another day?
[01:03:40] Let's save that for another day.
[01:03:41] That's a deep, uh, that's, that's, that's a whole other episode.
[01:03:47] Yep.
[01:03:48] Yeah.
[01:03:48] Well, you did amazing.
[01:03:49] Everyone jump in the comments and tell Kyle how awesome he did, especially someone who
[01:03:55] doesn't like to talk.
[01:03:56] Mm-hmm.
[01:03:56] You were wonderful.
[01:03:58] Thanks.
[01:03:58] I, and I learned stuff about you and you sang in choir.
[01:04:01] Oh my God.
[01:04:04] How did I not know this?
[01:04:07] And guys, I will really try to convince Kyle to let me post his, his frosted bleached hair
[01:04:15] picture on the socials.
[01:04:17] My puka shell necklace.
[01:04:19] Oh, you should.
[01:04:19] Please jump in the comments and put some peer pressure on him.
[01:04:22] Tell him you, you need to see this.
[01:04:24] It's important.
[01:04:25] Yes.
[01:04:27] All right.
[01:04:28] Well, Kyle, thank you for being in the hot seat and telling all of us about your premarital
[01:04:34] sex life.
[01:04:35] Mm-hmm.
[01:04:36] So evil.
[01:04:37] How could you?
[01:04:38] Yeah.
[01:04:38] And then I guess eventually we should talk about how we definitely lived together and
[01:04:42] had sex before we were married.
[01:04:46] We're both far past, uh, subscribing to that belief.
[01:04:51] I did not have it any other way though.
[01:04:52] So, okay.
[01:04:53] Well, thanks for listening everyone.
[01:04:55] And we will be back next week.
[01:04:58] Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind.
[01:05:01] Until next time.
[01:05:03] Don't join a cult.
[01:05:04] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like share and subscribe.
[01:05:08] And we will catch you on the next episode.
[01:05:10] Don't forget.
[01:05:10] Thank you.