60 - Deconstruction

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult, which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband, and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:24] All right, welcome back to the next episode. Today, we're going to hop into some of Amanda's deconstruction story. We were talking over the weekend and she mentioned that she started deconstructing her beliefs for Christianity.

[00:00:48] Yeah, all of it.

[00:00:50] All of it. When she was a worship leader and I was like, oh, really? That's interesting.

[00:00:59] Mm hmm.

[00:00:59] So, I think we'll start there. It also seems like people are very connected and interested in your story. Almost more so than like the actual cult material. I don't know. Leave us some feedback if that's how you feel.

[00:01:18] But for today, at least we're going to jump into your deconstruction story.

[00:01:23] So, you mean like – so, I think we get a lot of positive feedback anytime the episodes center on some aspect of my story, not the cult material. That's what you're referring to?

[00:01:35] Yes.

[00:01:35] Okay. So, we haven't gotten anyone who was like, don't review cult material. But we've noticed a trend where if we spend more time talking about my stories, people seem to really like that.

[00:01:48] Yeah. So, if that's true, like if we're analyzing this and interpreting the responses correctly, please jump in the comments and let us know. Because we can do that. We can shift more to storytelling instead of reviewing cult material.

[00:02:05] Yeah.

[00:02:06] Yeah.

[00:02:06] Or we can try to do a better blend of the two. Like with the marriage series, I feel like that was difficult because while I was in a weird marriage, it wasn't a strictly cult marriage.

[00:02:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:17] So, I didn't really connect with that material from a personal experience standpoint. But I think some of the like courtship and dating stuff, I had a lot more stories to weave into it. So, it's kind of weird with some of the topics because if I didn't live it, I don't really have the stories.

[00:02:34] Right.

[00:02:34] So, I don't know. Tell us how you'd like us to handle that.

[00:02:38] Okay. So, tell me more about this, being a worship leader and starting deconstruction.

[00:02:45] So, I think in my early 20s, I went through an interesting period of realization or exploration or all of it where I wanted to try Christianity away from the cult.

[00:03:01] So, after my ex and I got married, we started attending a Bible church. It was like half an hour away from us because we didn't want to go to the church my bio family went to that was like a non-denominational Bible church for a lot of reasons. We didn't want to go to that one. Plus, we didn't really like that church. We didn't really connect with it or the people there.

[00:03:24] So, the one that we found where we kind of liked it more, it was half an hour away. It was hard for us to get to because my ex worked overnight a lot on Saturdays.

[00:03:35] And so, then having to like get up and go to church for, you know, a 9 or 10 a.m. service was really rough logistically. So, we didn't make it out there that often.

[00:03:45] And one of the things we noticed was that people were like really judgy and noticed when we were and were not there. And it didn't seem to matter that the work schedule that my ex had wasn't conducive to Sunday morning stuff. It was still like judgy because we weren't there every week.

[00:04:01] And I think that really demotivated us from going. But during – well, I guess I'd have to back up even more. Like during college, when I was at the Moody Bible Institute, we had to go to church on Sunday.

[00:04:15] So, I've mentioned before like part of the reason I struggled to find a job was because the rules were you weren't supposed to work on Sunday.

[00:04:22] And I don't know if other people just like quietly broke that rule and did what they needed to survive. I had that coming from not just from the school, but also from my bio family. Like Rick and Chris had said, you are not allowed to work on Sunday. You cannot get a job that requires you to work on Sunday.

[00:04:37] So, that was part of my struggle. So, I had Sundays to go to church and I usually did. Sundays I was just like too tired or too sick or needed desperately to do homework because, you know, I worked four jobs and that was the one day I really had.

[00:04:54] Because a lot of times I worked from like seven in the morning until ten at night and then I would be up till one, two or three studying just to go right back to work a few hours later.

[00:05:06] So, like it was so hard making myself go to church on Sundays because I had so much I needed to do.

[00:05:14] But there was the same deal like the churches I went to that were non-denominational Bible churches basically.

[00:05:21] They were super judgy if you ever missed a week as well.

[00:05:26] And so, I was already kind of used to that aspect of non-cult churches.

[00:05:32] Like with the cult church, we did not miss.

[00:05:35] Like you had to be actively, I don't know, projectile vomiting to miss church growing up.

[00:05:41] It was – it hardly ever happened.

[00:05:44] Like I could probably count on one hand the number of times I was allowed to miss church growing up and I was, you know, dreadfully ill every time.

[00:05:51] So, adulthood and like being able to miss church and stuff at my own discretion was pretty new to me but also the judgment was pretty heavy.

[00:05:59] So, I usually went.

[00:06:01] And my experience with non-denominational Bible churches, like I don't know, that was still like righteous culty Amanda who, you know, was very judgmental of rock music and church and, you know, Satan taking over churches one drum at a time.

[00:06:20] So, it was kind of hard to find like a – I guess I think Christians, do they still call it like a church home?

[00:06:29] And I didn't put a lot of thought into it in college.

[00:06:32] I don't know.

[00:06:33] I was just trying to survive.

[00:06:34] I was just like I have to go to church.

[00:06:36] I'm required.

[00:06:37] I need to find one that's holy enough.

[00:06:40] I didn't really think about it.

[00:06:41] I just went and I tithed.

[00:06:44] Even though I was broke, I tithed.

[00:06:47] But then with my ex, I was – by that point in my life, I had started figuring out like, oh shit, that was a cult trying to find a different way to do religion.

[00:06:58] And I'm using religion there very specifically, not spirituality or Christianity.

[00:07:03] I was trying to find a way to do religion because I thought I had to.

[00:07:09] And so, we looked for non-denominational Bible churches.

[00:07:13] And I just – I didn't like the pettiness that I found in them.

[00:07:19] Like, we weren't involved in the church really heavily because of scheduling and having a hard time getting there.

[00:07:27] But like, I wanted to serve on the worship team.

[00:07:30] But to serve on the worship team, you first had to be there for this many months or years and you had to be a member of the church.

[00:07:37] But to be a member of the church, you had to go through their really intensive indoctrination program, which we couldn't get to because of work schedules.

[00:07:44] And there wasn't an option other than when they offered it.

[00:07:47] And if you couldn't get to it when they offered it, then you were still kind of judged because you weren't prioritizing Jesus enough, even though you like needed to pay the bills and, you know, keep your job and stuff.

[00:07:57] So, we never could, like, get to that membership class.

[00:08:02] So, what was that membership part of it?

[00:08:05] To make sure you were a real Christian before you joined them.

[00:08:09] Oh, interesting.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:10] That was normal.

[00:08:11] No.

[00:08:12] In churches I went to, that was normal.

[00:08:15] That – I don't know.

[00:08:16] That – I guess I wasn't a member of many churches, but I'm pretty sure, like, the Baptist church I grew up with, if you wanted to become an actual member of the church, it was literally, like, fill out this little tiny index card with your personal information on it and, like, turn it in.

[00:08:34] And, like, ta-da!

[00:08:35] You're a member of the church.

[00:08:37] Yeah, no.

[00:08:38] You had to go through class.

[00:08:40] What was that even like?

[00:08:42] I don't know.

[00:08:43] It was, like, theology and shit where you had to prove you were saved the right way again.

[00:08:48] And this was a – this was a non-denominational church.

[00:08:50] Yeah, this was just, like, a non-denominational Bible church.

[00:08:54] Interesting.

[00:08:55] So, then we moved and my ex joined the military and we were in the middle of nowhere in Texas for his training.

[00:09:03] So, I think we just went to chapel on base.

[00:09:07] My ex got, like, super involved with the chapel at his training base, which in retrospect is kind of weird.

[00:09:16] But I think it was more because it was, like, a social outlet and you got, like, good kid points for participating in any of those things.

[00:09:25] You got to wear, like, a special rope on your uniform.

[00:09:29] It's a military training thing.

[00:09:31] At least it was in the Air Force.

[00:09:32] Maybe still is.

[00:09:34] But you're, like, a liaison to other trainees for different things.

[00:09:39] So, you could be part of, like, the chapel program or you could be part of the sexual assault prevention and response program or the academic program, I think.

[00:09:48] I don't remember.

[00:09:50] And that was an enlisted specific thing.

[00:09:54] So, I mean, the purpose was good.

[00:09:56] It was try to, you know, get trainees connected to resources.

[00:09:59] But he was a liaison for the chapel.

[00:10:02] So, we went to chapel services.

[00:10:04] I don't think that was, like, a super consistent thing because of his training schedule.

[00:10:08] And I was finishing up my bachelor's degree.

[00:10:11] I was taking my last couple classes as independent studies so that I could move with him.

[00:10:18] And then we moved.

[00:10:20] Let's see.

[00:10:22] The next.

[00:10:23] So, were you part of the worship?

[00:10:25] No, you didn't.

[00:10:26] You didn't end up being a member at that church.

[00:10:29] So, you weren't part of the worship team.

[00:10:30] Okay.

[00:10:31] No, they couldn't vet me and my salvation.

[00:10:33] So, I couldn't be part of the worship team.

[00:10:36] And then.

[00:10:38] What?

[00:10:39] I just, like, how?

[00:10:41] I don't want to go down this rabbit hole.

[00:10:43] But, like, how would they even vet you?

[00:10:45] Like, it's salvation in the Christian church.

[00:10:48] Like, that is pretty.

[00:10:50] You have to share your testimony so that they can make sure.

[00:10:53] There's no way to actually prove that.

[00:10:55] I don't know.

[00:10:56] I guess the discernment of the Holy Spirit is what they would say.

[00:11:00] There we go.

[00:11:01] It's.

[00:11:01] Yep.

[00:11:03] So, we get to the next base.

[00:11:05] And we went to chapel services at that base.

[00:11:14] And they needed a worship leader.

[00:11:17] So, I became a worship leader.

[00:11:21] I don't think they totally, like, vetted me for salvation.

[00:11:24] But I had to do, like, a music audition thing.

[00:11:28] Makes sense.

[00:11:28] So, that was normal.

[00:11:30] And then I think I did have to answer some questions about theology and questions about, like, how I would handle people who, like, weren't Christians who wanted to be on the worship team.

[00:11:39] And I was like, this is literally a service for military members and their families.

[00:11:46] Like, anyone who wants to participate can participate.

[00:11:49] I guess my rebellion started then.

[00:11:53] I mean, that was the right answer in that context.

[00:11:56] Because the chapels were all non-denominational.

[00:11:58] Well, okay.

[00:11:59] The Protestant services were considered non-denominational.

[00:12:04] So, they had Catholic services and Protestant services.

[00:12:11] And that's – okay.

[00:12:12] So, I was kind of, like, happy as a clam for the first year or so.

[00:12:15] Because I was just – I had kind of settled into, like, non-denominational Christianity at that point in my life.

[00:12:22] Like, I was probably – I was still pretty conservative.

[00:12:26] But I was not in a cult.

[00:12:29] And I had left behind a lot of my, like, culty beliefs.

[00:12:32] And I was okay with drums.

[00:12:34] In fact, I recruited drummers.

[00:12:37] And we had electric guitars.

[00:12:39] And, like, I put together a pretty dope band.

[00:12:42] And it was, like, really fun.

[00:12:44] And it was good community.

[00:12:45] And my ex was part of it.

[00:12:46] So, it was, like, good community for him.

[00:12:48] And, I mean, we would have people over to our little house, like, constantly from that, like, social stuff.

[00:12:55] And we really leaned into, like, this is a supportive environment for military members or family members of military members.

[00:13:05] We had everything.

[00:13:06] Like, we had ROTC students coming in.

[00:13:08] We had active duty officers, active duty enlisted members.

[00:13:11] We had spouses.

[00:13:12] I think we even had some, like, guard or reserve folks.

[00:13:17] And it was, it got really big because it became, like, a really good place to go mostly because of the worship team.

[00:13:28] And we were kind of at the mercy of whichever chaplain was assigned to the service.

[00:13:34] So, we had some, like, real woo-woo stuff.

[00:13:39] We dreaded this one guy, this one chaplain.

[00:13:42] He was, like, super charismatic Pentecostal.

[00:13:46] And everything was just, like, wherever the spirit leads.

[00:13:50] So, we would have a set list for the music.

[00:13:53] And then he would be, like, Amanda, can we do XYZ song?

[00:13:58] And I'm being, like, people don't even have that music up here.

[00:14:01] And we don't, you know, these are volunteers.

[00:14:03] So, people aren't sitting around memorizing this stuff.

[00:14:09] And then he would be, like, let's do that chorus again.

[00:14:12] And again.

[00:14:13] And again.

[00:14:14] Like, one time we just kept singing the same chorus, like, ten times in a row.

[00:14:18] And it was really weird for everyone except him.

[00:14:20] But he was feeling it.

[00:14:22] So, whatevs.

[00:14:23] So, with him, it was just, like, wherever the spirit led.

[00:14:26] And any time he was assigned, like, the worship team, we were a little nervous.

[00:14:29] Because the spirit could lead some pretty strange places.

[00:14:33] And then we had, like, I can't remember if he was Anglican or Episcopalian.

[00:14:38] But, like, we had to set up, we had to, like, move how he set up the band on those days.

[00:14:43] Because we couldn't block the altar.

[00:14:46] Yeah.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] Because of his faith background and, like, how they handle services and stuff.

[00:14:53] And then we got assigned this, like, hyper-fundy guy who, oh, man.

[00:15:01] They had, like, 12 kids.

[00:15:02] And he was real, real, real, real Baptist and did a lot of sermons about how gay people go to hell.

[00:15:11] I had reached a point where, like, I personally took issue with that.

[00:15:14] We lost people from – we lost at least one member of the praise team who had a brother who was gay.

[00:15:21] Who was, like, nope, I'm not going to sit here and listen to the sermons.

[00:15:26] Like, they turned very much from, like, generalized spiritual, like, walking with God, you know, spirituality type stuff.

[00:15:37] Like, this guy had an agenda, like, a religious agenda that he used the pulpit to try to carry out.

[00:15:44] And that didn't go well.

[00:15:46] And I think it was, like, during that time that a bunch of things started happening for me.

[00:15:51] Like, I think I've shared – I started, like, getting cussed out at work for the first time ever in my life when I was a worship leader.

[00:16:01] And people started having the dumbest squabbles over, like, which coffee got served for fellowship.

[00:16:09] And then there was, like, the pastors or the chaplain's very conservative agenda that he was, like, preaching in a non-denominational military chapel space that was uncomfortable for a good number of us.

[00:16:25] And then there were, like, the music wars.

[00:16:27] Oh, my God.

[00:16:28] Yeah, that sounds right.

[00:16:29] Because it was – the purpose of the chapel, like, congressionally mandated services that the chaplain corps is required to provide, it's for active duty military members and their families.

[00:16:43] And then I think also guard and reservists come into that somewhere.

[00:16:46] I used to know all the regs, but I don't remember anymore.

[00:16:51] But then the retirees had access to the chapel.

[00:16:55] So you'd get this demographic of much older folks with very strong opinions and deep pockets, and they were the ones who tithed.

[00:17:07] So there was a lot of pressure to keep them happy so that they would continue coming to the chapel and tithing.

[00:17:13] Was that a more consistent congregation?

[00:17:17] Yes.

[00:17:18] Yes.

[00:17:18] They treated it like their home church.

[00:17:20] And then you had the transient military folks whose pockets weren't as deep because, you know, they were airmen living in the dorms and stuff, you know?

[00:17:31] Not that there weren't families and, like, officers and stuff who would attend.

[00:17:34] But it was specifically for, like – a lot of the on-base services are created with enlisted members living in the dorm in mind because they need somewhere to go that's easily accessible and all that kind of stuff.

[00:17:50] So it was walking distance.

[00:17:52] The chapel was walking distance from the dorms.

[00:17:57] So there became this huge political mess with trying to keep the rich, older, retired folks happy so they would keep attending and then, you know, keep lining the coffers.

[00:18:13] Did you hear that from, like, the –

[00:18:15] Yeah.

[00:18:16] The other people working there?

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:20] It was like a known and talked about thing.

[00:18:23] And I know you could say, but Amanda, that was like a military chapel.

[00:18:28] That's not your average church.

[00:18:30] But I'd been attending non-denominational Bible churches for years at that point.

[00:18:37] And I'd seen a lot of the same squabbles and the same – just, like, general weirdness and agendas that different churches had.

[00:18:47] Yeah, I mean, I never worked for a church.

[00:18:50] Well, I don't know.

[00:18:51] Like, I ran the sound system at a church for, like, a decade.

[00:18:54] And I was there, like, you know, Sunday, twice, Wednesday, you know, Wednesday every week.

[00:19:02] Like, I was never on the payroll.

[00:19:04] I did that as free.

[00:19:05] Yeah, that's another thing I have.

[00:19:06] But, like, the whole catering to the folks that are there consistently, which is usually the retired people or people without – you know.

[00:19:22] You can get into the whole demographics there, but I never heard specific talks about, like, well, we must do this for this person.

[00:19:32] But you can infer that from, like, people that are complaining about the music.

[00:19:38] It's, like, it's that demographic.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:41] The people that are always there.

[00:19:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:12] Right.

[00:20:42] So that isn't how a lot of people treated it, but that's actually why it exists.

[00:20:48] And I remember there were a bunch of other things that happened during that time.

[00:20:53] My ex got a book that was about interpreting scripture, and he read it and thought it was really interesting.

[00:21:01] And then I ended up reading it and thought it was really interesting.

[00:21:03] I was in seminary at the time because I thought I wanted to be a military or hospital chaplain.

[00:21:10] And I had a horrible experience with my predominantly male classmates.

[00:21:17] So, first of all, the school I went to wouldn't ordain me at the end of the program, but they would ordain all the men.

[00:21:24] Women could go through their program and graduate, but then they had to go find somewhere else to ordain them, which was kind of nuts.

[00:21:32] And then my male classmates, like, harassed me.

[00:21:36] Not like sexual harassment, like bullying, mean, patriarchal, misogynistic harassment about the fact that I was in the class.

[00:21:44] Anytime that I had ideas or opinions that weren't strictly Southern Baptist, like how dare I think women can do anything except have babies and be married to men.

[00:21:56] And I just, I didn't like the environment.

[00:21:58] I think that was the thing that started pushing me away the most.

[00:22:00] Like, I didn't like Christian people.

[00:22:04] I found them to be really judgy and really petty.

[00:22:09] And I didn't see them living out love and acceptance.

[00:22:16] No, I mean, that sounds like a prime example of like modern day segregation.

[00:22:25] Like you're in a program to, you know, be a pastor or priest or whatever you want to call it in this case.

[00:22:34] And there's a clear, well, at the end of this, you're not included anymore.

[00:22:40] Like you can go through all the training, but you're not going to get the title.

[00:22:44] So in the midst of all that, I was vetting denominations, trying to find someone that would ordain me as a woman whose theological ideology I could accept and agree to adhere to.

[00:22:59] That's the only avenue you had.

[00:23:01] Yeah.

[00:23:02] Yeah.

[00:23:02] And because you had to be ordained and you had to be like sponsored and endorsed by a denomination to do the chaplaincy work I wanted to do.

[00:23:13] And honestly, I don't even remember why I wanted to be a chaplain.

[00:23:17] I think it was just what made sense because I had an undergraduate degree in biblical studies and like I didn't want that to be a waste.

[00:23:25] So I was like, well, I might as well keep going down that line.

[00:23:29] Like I enjoy helping people.

[00:23:31] I enjoy taking care of people.

[00:23:33] I enjoy being in a nurturing role with people.

[00:23:36] So this makes sense and aligns with my undergraduate degree.

[00:23:40] I should do that.

[00:23:41] Did you still feel pigeonholed into that?

[00:23:44] Yeah.

[00:23:45] Because outside of, well, my undergraduate degree is in that, like, did it still feel like you had to stay in that realm?

[00:23:54] Like in the religious realm instead of like going and getting a degree in physics or something?

[00:23:58] Yeah, I really wish I had a degree in physics.

[00:24:01] Like, no, if I had to do it in life, my undergrad would be physics.

[00:24:06] But yeah, I mean, I thought I had to because my entire childhood, everything I had been told was that you had to do ministry as an adult.

[00:24:17] Like, that was your purpose as a Christian.

[00:24:21] No, like just generally as a person.

[00:24:23] As a Christian, you were supposed to be in ministry full time.

[00:24:27] And chaplaincy was a way I could do that while also getting paid.

[00:24:34] So this is so weird.

[00:24:36] I feel like I'm talking about someone I don't even know anymore.

[00:24:38] Like this doesn't feel like I'm recounting my life.

[00:24:40] I'm not sure if I could make a comment about that because as long as I've known you, that has never even been remotely your ambition or on the table.

[00:24:49] And like, I know you have an undergraduate degree in that, but it was never, that was never you.

[00:24:55] What, ministry?

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:56] I mean, I still care about people, but it looks very different.

[00:25:00] It's not telling them that Jesus can save them anymore.

[00:25:02] Like, and I really used to believe that.

[00:25:05] I did.

[00:25:07] And I know, I know we have a lot of Christians who listen to this.

[00:25:11] And I know I said, I don't, I didn't like Christians.

[00:25:14] Like, Christians are what drove me away from Christianity.

[00:25:16] But like, it is also the truth.

[00:25:19] Like, Christians are what drove me away from Christianity.

[00:25:22] I saw a lot of pettiness and hypocrisy and just general, like generally mean people who, I'm trying to think how to say this because I know that's not all Christians.

[00:25:36] That's what I'm saying.

[00:25:36] Like, we've, we've mentioned this before.

[00:25:38] Yeah.

[00:25:38] It's not like.

[00:25:39] It's not all Christians.

[00:25:42] But at least the ones I ran into in a lot of churches all over the country, like, I'm trying to think how to say this.

[00:25:49] Like, it wasn't just like, Amanda had one negative experience and wrote off Christians.

[00:25:53] Like, I attended all kinds of churches all over the country before coming to this conclusion.

[00:25:59] And then my, my academic work, like, the more I dug into theology, the more I found holes in religion, like, as a construct, not just Christianity, but religion.

[00:26:11] And I wish I could go back and give you like chapter and verse receipts for everything.

[00:26:16] But I don't remember anymore.

[00:26:18] What I can tell you is like, I went 1 million percent in into figuring this out.

[00:26:24] And it wasn't, it wasn't flippant on my part at all.

[00:26:27] I've just brain dumped it because I don't need it anymore.

[00:26:31] Like, I compiled the knowledge I needed to make the choices I made.

[00:26:35] And then after I made the choices, I no longer needed that information.

[00:26:38] So I, I let it go and learned astrophysics in the military instead.

[00:26:44] Well, you all, I mean, you still learn more than the, I would say, the average Christian.

[00:26:49] Like, you went through symmetry.

[00:26:50] Yes.

[00:26:50] Which is more than most people, like myself included.

[00:26:53] Like, it's not that you dabbled in Christianity.

[00:26:57] Right.

[00:26:57] You're like, no, that's not really for me.

[00:26:59] You went real deep.

[00:27:00] So what the statistic I was given when I was in training was that like, just by virtue of

[00:27:05] the degree I hold my undergraduate degree, I was already in the top 1% in the world around

[00:27:12] being educated in Christianity.

[00:27:14] And then I went to seminary after that.

[00:27:17] I have enough credits, like graduate credits from seminary to have like a master of arts in

[00:27:25] theology or something like that.

[00:27:26] I just never finished that degree.

[00:27:28] But because I was going for a master of divinity and I, being me, went for the extra long one.

[00:27:33] It was like, there was like the 60 some odd credit version and then the 90 some odd credit

[00:27:37] version one.

[00:27:37] Of course I went for the 90 some odd credit one.

[00:27:40] So I had like over 30 something credits in theology at the graduate level before I, I

[00:27:48] stopped participating in that program.

[00:27:50] I was like a third of the way into it.

[00:27:52] So it wasn't flippant, I guess is the bottom line.

[00:27:56] But I started noticing issues.

[00:27:58] Like even in the songs I was leading as a worship leader, it was like saying stuff.

[00:28:04] And I wish I could remember, but they were like popular worship songs at the time.

[00:28:08] This was like 2014, 2015 timeframe.

[00:28:15] So I don't know, you can look back at whatever those songs were that were super popular back

[00:28:19] then.

[00:28:19] But I started finding issues in a lot of the lyrics.

[00:28:23] Like they weren't theologically based in what I would even consider like a good solid,

[00:28:29] not hyper conservative, not super, you know, loopy doopy, but like a nice middle ground theology.

[00:28:35] Like they weren't even founded.

[00:28:37] It was a lot of words that sounded nice, strung together, but they didn't really mean anything

[00:28:43] that I perceived to be true as at the time, like a good moderate Christian with, you know,

[00:28:54] solid theological underpinning.

[00:28:57] So I started cutting them from our repertoire for the worship team.

[00:29:02] And I started putting a lot of thought into the songs and the lyrics and what we were actually

[00:29:08] saying as we sang words.

[00:29:12] I put an enormous amount of work into that.

[00:29:14] Like if you would come into my office back in those days, there would have been stacks

[00:29:19] and stacks of sheet music on the floor.

[00:29:22] Cause I would sit there and sort it like, okay, this makes sense.

[00:29:26] This is theologically solid.

[00:29:28] This goes in the good pile.

[00:29:29] This goes in the maybe pile.

[00:29:31] This goes in the absolutely no pile.

[00:29:34] And then I started really paying attention to like what it said about God and moving away

[00:29:39] from like a real culty conservative view.

[00:29:45] But also like back at the time, and again, this, this feels like I'm talking about someone

[00:29:49] else I'm trying to remember.

[00:29:52] So not even going like what Christians would call like super liberal either.

[00:29:59] There was just a lot of like weird woo-woo-y stuff or like stuff that was hyper conservative

[00:30:05] about God that didn't even follow a real translation of scripture and, you know, stuff like that.

[00:30:11] So I would put those in the no pile.

[00:30:12] So, and then, and then it like the deeper I got into this, the more difficult it became because I wanted to be authentic and real.

[00:30:22] And at the time I still believed in the Christian God, but my understanding of a lot of things was shifting.

[00:30:28] Like I stopped believing in the concept of inerrancy, like that every word in the Bible is exactly true.

[00:30:36] Oh, I remember that.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] And that's like, that's a huge part.

[00:30:41] That's part of why it was so hard for me to find a denomination to ordain me because I didn't believe in biblical inerrancy anymore.

[00:30:51] Isn't that like a hot topic within like different denominations?

[00:30:55] Yes.

[00:30:56] Like whether inerrancy is.

[00:30:57] Yes.

[00:30:58] You are like a terrible liberal Christian.

[00:31:01] If you, if you do not believe in inerrancy, like you're almost a heretic usually.

[00:31:06] Like even in non-denominational Bible churches, belief in that like scripture is the inerrant word of God is usually how it's worded.

[00:31:15] Like that is a big thing.

[00:31:18] But I had to like pray as a worship leader and I had to do inspirational little, you know, lead ups to songs and stuff.

[00:31:25] And I, I put an enormous amount of thought into that.

[00:31:28] Like how can I do this authentically while still being someone who's really grappling with like, is God even real?

[00:31:35] Like is God even real?

[00:31:37] That's a bad spot to be in.

[00:31:38] But I was also under a contract so I couldn't just like leave.

[00:31:42] And they also didn't have anyone really to replace me.

[00:31:45] And I knew we were going to be moving with the military anyways.

[00:31:49] Like I think this started six to nine months before we were going to be moving anyway.

[00:31:54] So I just, I wrote it out until we moved until my contract ended.

[00:31:59] But that was a really, that was a really tough time because I, I felt like the time had come for me to really grapple with this instead of just believing what I'd been told by the cult to my bio parents.

[00:32:11] And then after I led that, left the cult, like then society and Christians and churches and like what I believed about God had been dictated to me my whole life.

[00:32:23] And I mean, it's a really good question.

[00:32:25] And I'm trying to think even for me personally, like I feel like a lot of what you or what I learned in church, it was very like, this is a matter of fact in what your, your role was as a church goer was to reconcile you and your life with what you're being told.

[00:32:52] And I can't even remember, but I feel like it had to have been like way, way late, like, you know, 15 years into going to church that I actually questioned what it was that I was being told and looked at it from a position of like, is this right or wrong?

[00:33:11] Instead of it's right.

[00:33:13] And I'm wrong.

[00:33:17] Or this is right.

[00:33:18] And if I feel like it's wrong, that's sin.

[00:33:23] And like, I need to work on that.

[00:33:24] Like, I'm probably not even justifying the feeling there and like the shift in your mentality when you start in the inerrancy is a good one.

[00:33:34] Like, that's a prime example.

[00:33:36] Like, when do you even question that topic?

[00:33:40] Because I don't feel like I ever, I didn't do that until way late, even though I'd heard sermons on inerrancy.

[00:33:48] It was just like, oh, everything in the Bible is right.

[00:33:50] And that's all there was because that's what I was taught.

[00:33:53] And so I never even questioned it.

[00:33:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:56] Okay, so a couple things.

[00:33:57] I think what you're talking about is the phrase, like, you have to be in submission to Christ and the Holy Spirit, like, bring yourself into submission.

[00:34:06] And one of the things that I realized was what I was submitting to was some white man's interpretation of an ancient text that may or may not even be interpreted correctly in the first place, like, into English, and then how they were interpreting it into life.

[00:34:23] And then, and I think that was part of where, like, my education, like, my academic experience with Christianity, there were so many holes in how we ended up with, like, the Bible as we know it today.

[00:34:37] And how we ended up with all of these traditions and how we ended up with teachings around, like, human sexuality, for instance.

[00:34:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:46] And what we believe about heteronormativity and all of those things.

[00:34:52] Like, it's, there were a lot of holes along the way.

[00:34:58] And I couldn't ignore those anymore.

[00:35:02] And even, like, you can get into the science and archaeology versus what the Bible says.

[00:35:09] And the thing that I, oh, I do remember this.

[00:35:11] One of the things that was a big turning point for me was reading academic text about Jericho.

[00:35:24] I think it was Jericho, where, you know, they walked around and blew the trumpets for seven days.

[00:35:30] They walked around Jericho, and then the walls came tumbling down.

[00:35:33] Remember that Bible story?

[00:35:35] No, but keep going.

[00:35:35] And the song that goes with it.

[00:35:37] Anyways, if you look at the Bible, it, like, gives very definitive numbers of this is how many soldiers we had and how many they had.

[00:35:45] And this is how many Israelites there were at this time, blah, blah, blah.

[00:35:47] And when you go back and you look at the archaeology, like, the numbers don't match.

[00:35:52] The numbers don't match.

[00:35:53] But, like, inerrancy people are going to be like, it is the inerrant word of God.

[00:35:57] There's exactly how many people were there.

[00:35:59] Archaeology got it wrong.

[00:36:01] But if you look at the historical cultural context, the numbers, the written numbers lied all the time.

[00:36:09] Not just in Israelite culture, but in all cultures at that time.

[00:36:12] They didn't have Facebook and audits and all that kind of stuff to be like, here's how many people were at the riot.

[00:36:17] Like, they just had to project themselves as the biggest bad and scare their enemies to, like, hopefully encourage them to submit before you even got there.

[00:36:28] So, like, if you were the biggest bad and you were like, we have 100,000 soldiers, even if you only had 10,000 soldiers, and you sent that message out,

[00:36:40] like, who was going to verify that to begin with?

[00:36:43] Like, transportation was an issue.

[00:36:45] There are so many reasons.

[00:36:46] Anyways, you projected yourself to be the biggest bad.

[00:36:50] So, of course, so, like, a logical person would look at that and be like, of course the Bible's numbers are amped up because everybody did that back then.

[00:36:58] But in a lot of circles, if you say that, like, oh, yeah, the Israelites were amping up their numbers because that's what everyone did back then.

[00:37:05] Christians are going to be like, no, you're a heretic because that's the inerrant word of God and it's this many Israelites.

[00:37:11] You are not a good Christian.

[00:37:13] And, like, I even remember being in undergrad, being at Moody, and stuff would come up and I would ask questions.

[00:37:19] And I remember asking one at the end, a question.

[00:37:24] I don't remember what it was at the end of a class as another professor was, like, coming in to set up for his class.

[00:37:30] And my professor couldn't answer the question.

[00:37:32] He was like, I don't know.

[00:37:33] Let's ask Dr. So-and-so.

[00:37:35] So he turned and asked my question to Dr. So-and-so.

[00:37:38] And Dr. So-and-so said, good Christians don't ask those kinds of questions.

[00:37:42] So, like, you know, so this didn't just, like, fall apart overnight.

[00:37:47] This was decades of me, like, having reasonable questions that no one could answer or being told, like, you're a bad Christian if you ask those questions.

[00:37:57] And then having exposure to, like, historical cultural context and finding holes in the story and being okay with it.

[00:38:07] Like, at that point in my life, you know, 10 years ago, I would have said, I can absolutely believe in the Christian God and believe in inerrancy.

[00:38:16] Like, that's not a problem.

[00:38:18] That doesn't mean Jesus didn't come die for my sins.

[00:38:22] Like, it's just, that's just what they did in those cultures.

[00:38:26] They played everything up so that they were the biggest bad so their enemies would fear them.

[00:38:31] Like, what's the big deal, folks?

[00:38:33] But that would get me labeled, like, a heretic in some circles and by some of the denominations I wanted to ordain me.

[00:38:41] Well, I didn't want them to ordain me after that, but, you know.

[00:38:45] So it just, I guess it was a combination of, like, the academic side of things and, like, how we got the Bible and, like, the political process that that was.

[00:38:55] The more I learned about it, the more I was like, nope, I don't trust that process.

[00:38:59] And then there was the component of, like, realizing that we had, you know, an interpretation from the ancient text into English that was faulty in some respects.

[00:39:14] And then there was some man telling me what to make of that and how to apply it to my life.

[00:39:20] And then there was, like, the behavioral issues I saw in Christian people as a group that did not match with what they purported to be.

[00:39:32] And I didn't want to be associated with that hypocrisy.

[00:39:35] And I guess that's kind of how it all slowly reached a point where I walked away from Christianity.

[00:39:42] And not just Christianity, like religion entirely.

[00:39:48] But I waited to, like, fully pull the plug until I was no longer a worship leader.

[00:39:54] And then I tried going back once.

[00:39:56] Did you know this?

[00:39:57] Did you know I, like, tried being a Christian again after that?

[00:40:01] Well, depends on, I don't think we've answered specifically, like, at what point did you draw the line?

[00:40:12] And what point were you, like, still a worship leader?

[00:40:15] So you were a worship leader, you moved bases.

[00:40:19] In 2015, I was no longer a worship leader.

[00:40:22] And at that point, I was, I considered myself agnostic.

[00:40:26] But I still, like, prayed all the time.

[00:40:29] Because I still thought there was a higher power, I just wasn't sure Christianity had it right.

[00:40:34] So I still, like, prayed to a higher power.

[00:40:37] That I thought was probably, well, I thought it was the Christian God, just not how Christians interpret that God.

[00:40:46] And then I went through divorce and a bunch of stuff.

[00:40:52] And.

[00:40:53] And then you went to church after that.

[00:40:55] Yeah, because a guy I was dating wanted to.

[00:40:59] And it.

[00:41:02] Well, okay.

[00:41:03] It was different.

[00:41:05] Because.

[00:41:07] He called himself a Christian and went to church.

[00:41:11] And had some pretty conservative views in some ways, but like, dated like a normal person.

[00:41:18] As well.

[00:41:19] And I hadn't seen that before.

[00:41:21] Like, I had only ever seen purity culture, like we don't even kiss or hold hands.

[00:41:27] What did you mean by dated like a normal person?

[00:41:30] I know you're trying to not answer that question, but I think that's an important distinction there.

[00:41:35] So, like, I don't know if this is even mainstream Christianity anymore, because I'm out of touch with it.

[00:41:43] But the mainstream Christianity I'm familiar with is like no sex before marriage, no living together before marriage.

[00:41:49] And that had become a thing for me after my divorce was like, I will live with someone before I marry them.

[00:41:54] Because try that the purity culture way didn't work out real well.

[00:41:58] I think if I had sex with my ex-husband one time before we got married, I would have known not to marry him.

[00:42:03] Like, so I was in a different place at that point in my life.

[00:42:07] As far as I know that, at least in the time frame you're talking about, that was still normal.

[00:42:15] To like no sex before marriage, purity, purity, purity.

[00:42:19] Yeah.

[00:42:19] Yeah.

[00:42:21] So he didn't believe in that, but he still went to church and had like pretty conservative theological views, which was weird to me.

[00:42:30] And I was like, all right, I will go to your strange church.

[00:42:33] It was a Baptist church.

[00:42:37] But like, I will try this.

[00:42:40] And we weren't together very long.

[00:42:43] I moved.

[00:42:44] He moved.

[00:42:44] It was a whole thing.

[00:42:45] And then I ended up going to chapel a little bit at my next base.

[00:42:51] And then I had this like devotional thing that I read every morning.

[00:42:56] And I like got up and like did a devotional book and like spent time with God every morning.

[00:43:05] And this was all under like Christianity.

[00:43:07] Why are you smirking at me like that?

[00:43:09] This is so just, this is not how I know you.

[00:43:14] And it is so different.

[00:43:17] I know.

[00:43:19] So I'm smirking because it's like, it's very interesting to me.

[00:43:24] Like the, I came in at the very tail end of this story.

[00:43:29] And even when we met, like, it was still, there was still a little bit of Christian Amanda there.

[00:43:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:39] And you even asked me questions about that.

[00:43:42] Yeah, I know.

[00:43:42] And you were concerned about where I was in relation to it.

[00:43:46] No, you were so agnostic.

[00:43:47] How could you, Kyle?

[00:43:50] I know.

[00:43:51] I am aware.

[00:43:53] Why do you think we've not told this story before?

[00:43:56] This is uncomfortable for me.

[00:43:58] It shouldn't, it shouldn't be uncomfortable.

[00:44:00] It's just, it's the evolution of this story is.

[00:44:07] It's got some plot twists.

[00:44:09] It's got some plot twists.

[00:44:10] And it, I mean, it was a very slow burn in the grand scheme of things.

[00:44:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:16] And it's still evolving.

[00:44:18] And so, yeah, this was by no means a knee-jerk reaction.

[00:44:24] No.

[00:44:26] Oh, okay.

[00:44:28] So then I was on my, like, Christian renewal.

[00:44:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:37] Yeah, phase.

[00:44:38] And that lasted from 20, like, late 2018 to late 2020.

[00:44:47] It was like a two-year stint.

[00:44:50] And in that, there was the guy I dated who went to that Baptist church.

[00:44:54] I went with him a few times.

[00:44:56] We broke up.

[00:44:58] I moved with the military.

[00:44:59] I moved with the military again.

[00:45:02] And I met someone who considered himself a Christian, but had, like, a different take on Christianity that was very much like relationship with God, not dogma-based.

[00:45:23] So he wasn't about the rules.

[00:45:26] He was about the relationship.

[00:45:27] And I don't know.

[00:45:29] I probably can't do his views justice.

[00:45:32] I don't remember a lot of it.

[00:45:34] But he had a take on Christianity as, like, God is a father.

[00:45:38] Like, God is a loving parent, not a wrathful deity.

[00:45:43] And I liked that a lot more.

[00:45:50] And we connected over that.

[00:45:53] We talked about that a ton.

[00:45:54] Like, that was a big part of that relationship that was more like a situationship, was talking about this different view of God.

[00:46:06] Because, like, he had come from, I think, a more, like, conservative, not cult by any means, but, like, more conservative branch of Christianity.

[00:46:16] And was kind of, like, coming out of that and into this, like, non-wrathful deity view of God.

[00:46:22] And, like, good dad view of God.

[00:46:26] So we talked about that a lot.

[00:46:28] And that's – I think that's kind of where I was when you and I met.

[00:46:33] So that relationship obviously ended.

[00:46:37] And I continued to ponder that, like, God is a – like, Christian God as a loving parent view of Christianity.

[00:46:50] But I didn't go to church through that time.

[00:46:53] That was not, like, wait, no.

[00:46:58] Oh, did I?

[00:46:59] I did for a tiny little bit.

[00:47:01] But I found the same – but, like, I was on rotating schedule military stuff, like, traveling TDY, all this stuff.

[00:47:08] So I couldn't attend consistently.

[00:47:09] So I couldn't get involved in a small group because I wasn't a member.

[00:47:13] And it was, like, all the same nonsense of, like, okay, guys, I'm just trying to, like, have community here and be part of this church.

[00:47:21] But because I can't check all of your boxes.

[00:47:25] And then I started getting really pissed off because of things like megachurches that have Starbucks or the equivalent in the lobby.

[00:47:39] But, like, people are starving in our community.

[00:47:43] But we're spending all this money to get, you know, fancy coffee and, like, the smoke and light show of worship instead of, you know, maybe we could direct some money away from the sound system and into, like, the hungry people or, you know, the widows and the fatherless or whatever the Bible says.

[00:48:04] So at that phase of my life, this was more like the 2020-ish era, I started getting really pissed off about how churches allocate funds and the concept of tithing and, like, watch – especially through the pandemic, like, people who are broke and struggling to make ends meet and keep food on the table for their kids and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[00:48:28] When the world shut down and, like, Christians were still squabbling about, like, not getting the Zoom small group that they wanted to be in.

[00:48:39] And I'm like, okay, there are people with real problems right now.

[00:48:41] Like, that really rubbed me the wrong way.

[00:48:46] And the allocation of resources during a time when a lot of people were suffering.

[00:48:49] And I'm sure there are churches who did good things, and I'm not discounting that.

[00:48:53] I'm saying this is what I personally saw and experienced.

[00:48:57] So by – I think by 2021, I had pretty much stopped all church attendance, stopped all association with Christianity.

[00:49:13] And I don't even remember my whole journey into not believing in the Christian God anymore or the concept of religion anymore.

[00:49:24] But that was a whole thing that happened somewhere in the last couple years.

[00:49:30] I mean, there was a long period of a whole lot of pain and retreat from yourself.

[00:49:42] Like, with me being ill?

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:44] Yeah, but it wasn't, like – it wasn't, like, the Job thing in the Bible of, like, oh, the pain and suffering, you know, made him question the existence of God.

[00:49:54] Like, I had already – that was already a thing that had happened.

[00:49:58] I think what I was trying to say is you got very preoccupied with other things.

[00:50:02] Oh, yeah.

[00:50:02] And probably just completely shut that part of your brain down of questioning.

[00:50:06] I wasn't too worried about existential questions during that time.

[00:50:10] And what was funny is, like, I literally thought I was going to die during that time.

[00:50:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:45] Because I think that's a misinterpretation of Scripture, even if that is real.

[00:50:49] Even if the Christian God is real.

[00:50:51] I think that's a misinterpretation of Scripture.

[00:50:53] But, yeah, it was interesting and pleasant to realize, like, I wasn't scared of death.

[00:51:01] I didn't want to leave you.

[00:51:03] But I wasn't scared of whatever happens after death.

[00:51:10] And, yeah, I don't remember the whole thing.

[00:51:12] I know I read a lot of books after my surgery when I could think again.

[00:51:17] I started reading again.

[00:51:21] But I like where I've landed, which is a story for another day, I guess.

[00:51:26] I would say there's a bunch of other things I wanted to pull on.

[00:51:29] I need to write this down before I forget it because I think we'll wrap it up for today's episode.

[00:51:36] But I think there's definitely several aspects of this we can pull a thread on a little bit more.

[00:51:43] What was new to you that I shared today?

[00:51:48] I don't think any of it's new because I know where you're at now.

[00:51:52] And I've seen some of the, some of your, I don't know if this is the right word, but like some of your growth in your...

[00:52:01] I consider it growth.

[00:52:03] Yeah.

[00:52:04] Working through all of that.

[00:52:06] Yeah, like your processing.

[00:52:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:09] And so, but I also know you went to seminary and I know you grew up in a very religious cult.

[00:52:16] And so like I, I know where you started and where you ended or where you're at at the moment.

[00:52:23] So none of it's new for me from that point of view.

[00:52:29] But it's still strange to like hear when I think about that.

[00:52:34] And I'm like, this is what Amanda used to think.

[00:52:35] And I'm like, that does not sound like Amanda at all.

[00:52:41] Well, we'll have to do your story.

[00:52:43] Yeah, my story is different.

[00:52:46] Yeah.

[00:52:46] I mean, a lot of the, those are some of the points I wanted to talk about.

[00:52:50] I think there's some similarities there.

[00:52:54] And maybe I will say this.

[00:52:55] So you ended up on a, going and dating or being in situationships or whatever with a

[00:53:00] series of guys that had more relaxed views of what their relationship with God or the

[00:53:08] church should look like.

[00:53:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:10] And that kind of continued to progress until me.

[00:53:14] And I would definitely fall into that category.

[00:53:17] And I'm not saying that the, those guys led you that direction, but they opened the door

[00:53:26] in a sense to like showed you that there's these other views on it.

[00:53:32] And they kind of stepped you down to.

[00:53:35] Where I ended up.

[00:53:36] Where you ended up.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:37] I think the only reason I dated them was because they weren't like strict Christian church people.

[00:53:42] And there's that too.

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:42] Like that wouldn't have been a thing.

[00:53:44] Yeah.

[00:53:45] Yeah.

[00:53:46] But yeah, I would say my ideology kind of fell in line there, but it's also interesting

[00:53:51] because there's something to be said about specifically people who believe that, oh, well,

[00:53:59] I believe in the, just this relationship with God.

[00:54:02] And that's, that's aside from church and where, and you have people that'll say, well,

[00:54:07] no, I believe in God, but I don't go to church and those people, because I was one of them.

[00:54:15] It's like, I don't believe in the stuff they're saying at church, but I still believe in a God

[00:54:21] or even the same God that they're referring to in, in traditional Christian church.

[00:54:26] That's where you and I both were.

[00:54:27] Right.

[00:54:27] Yeah.

[00:54:28] Okay.

[00:54:29] But you could also say that like, that is a heretic type person.

[00:54:35] Like they don't believe in the same thing.

[00:54:38] Not the gathering of the saints.

[00:54:40] And so like, it was almost like a natural progression of like, you start kicking or rebelling the

[00:54:46] teachings in church to the point where you remove yourself from the church and then you

[00:54:53] just like continue drifting away.

[00:54:55] And it just, you know, someone inside the church that sees that is going to have a very different

[00:55:00] perception of what is actually happening as opposed to the person that is doing that.

[00:55:04] Everyone's leaving the church.

[00:55:05] And when you start going down that avenue, like you're making, as someone that did that,

[00:55:11] like you're making excuses for the religion.

[00:55:20] Wait, tell me more about that.

[00:55:21] So the purity culture thing, you're like, I don't really believe in the purity culture

[00:55:27] stuff.

[00:55:28] Like I can't, I can't reconcile that in my head with the religion and it just doesn't, it

[00:55:34] feels wrong to me.

[00:55:35] So wait, we're making excuses for Christianity?

[00:55:40] In a way, I don't know if that's the right word, but like, so say I'm just going to talk

[00:55:48] from first person here.

[00:55:49] Like I'm in church and I'm like, I don't know, the purity culture thing doesn't ring true

[00:55:53] for me.

[00:55:53] But I'm still going to be a part of the church.

[00:55:55] And so my way of making excuses for that or reconciling is like, well, I'm going to remove,

[00:56:02] extricate myself from the church and maintain the relationship with God by removing this

[00:56:08] purity culture thing.

[00:56:09] And you kind of.

[00:56:11] But like the hardcore Christians would say you're, you're making an idol then you're,

[00:56:16] you're fashioning a God of your own design.

[00:56:19] Yeah.

[00:56:20] That could be an argument that would be made.

[00:56:23] But yeah, I guess for me it was like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to justify all of this together.

[00:56:32] Like your actions or what the church is doing?

[00:56:35] My actions of removing parts of the belief system out of the religion.

[00:56:42] Relation.

[00:56:42] Okay.

[00:56:44] That make sense?

[00:56:45] Sort of.

[00:56:46] Yeah.

[00:56:47] It's.

[00:56:48] Not really.

[00:56:49] Yeah.

[00:56:50] Like I'm probably doing this, not using the right words here.

[00:56:56] I also put you on the spot.

[00:56:58] You can think about it and we can circle back next time.

[00:57:00] Yeah.

[00:57:01] There's, but anyways, there's like several parts of religion that I feel like people slowly

[00:57:07] start walking back until you get to the point which you have removed yourself from that bubble

[00:57:13] and purity culture is an easy one there.

[00:57:16] But so there, I mean, there's, there's lots of stuff we can dig into that.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:22] Cause I think the purity culture thing would be really interesting to revisit.

[00:57:25] Cause I know so many people, lovely people who call themselves Christians and are absolutely

[00:57:30] living with and having sex with people before marriage.

[00:57:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:36] But that like, does that make them less Christian?

[00:57:39] Does it make them bad Christians?

[00:57:40] Does it make them a different kind of Christian?

[00:57:42] Like, I don't know.

[00:57:45] Like, I, I know, I know what party line would say, like the, the, like strict conservative

[00:57:50] side of Christianity would be like, absolutely.

[00:57:53] That's immorality.

[00:57:54] That's fornication.

[00:57:57] That's defrauding.

[00:57:58] If you want to use Bill Gothard's term, like there's that aspect of the

[00:58:03] aspect of it.

[00:58:04] Or I think that there are also Christians who are like, well, it's consensual.

[00:58:10] It's respectful.

[00:58:11] They love each other, committed to each other, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:58:15] Um, so no, it's not immoral or wrong, but like that, I, I, I think that's still a rare

[00:58:22] form of Christianity.

[00:58:23] Cause I think a lot of the people who, um, again, it was a while ago that I was going to church.

[00:58:30] So I don't know if this still, this is still true.

[00:58:33] But back when I was going to church, like if you were having sex with your boyfriend or

[00:58:36] girlfriend or fiance outside of marriage, you were hiding that at church.

[00:58:40] Like you didn't tell people you live together.

[00:58:43] You didn't tell people you were sleeping together.

[00:58:45] Like everyone there just assumed that you were two holy people who drove here in separate

[00:58:50] cars and then went back to different apartments at the end of the service.

[00:58:54] Um, when in reality probably woke up and had sex that morning before going to church.

[00:58:59] Like, yeah, I'm trying to, I'll have to circle back to this.

[00:59:05] Cause I have to think about how that played out for me as far as living with and

[00:59:11] sleeping with somebody before marriage.

[00:59:16] So much to talk about here.

[00:59:18] Are you going to be in the hot seat next?

[00:59:20] I feel like I've already put myself in the hot seat.

[00:59:23] Everyone come back next week for Kyle in the hot seat about sex and church.

[00:59:28] Exactly.

[00:59:30] Oh, and his mom listens to this podcast.

[00:59:32] So that's extra fun.

[00:59:34] Sorry.

[00:59:37] We love you.

[00:59:39] All right.

[00:59:39] Well, come back next week.

[00:59:41] I do love your mom.

[00:59:41] She's cool.

[00:59:42] Yes.

[00:59:43] We'll pull this thread a little bit more and continue this discussion.

[00:59:48] Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind.

[00:59:52] Until next time.

[00:59:54] Don't join a cult.

[00:59:55] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like share and subscribe.

[00:59:58] And we will catch you on the next episode.