Following up on the marriage purposes series, Amanda and Kyle share their non-courtship story that basically ignored all of Bill's relationship guidelines. However, Kyle almost followed purity culture with room for the Holy Spirit for a whole lotta dates. Amanda will never let him live it down. They compare Bill's marriage principles to the insights of an actual therapist who, you know, is trained in these matters, and Kyle reports on the results of travel-enforced abstinence--in case you were wondering how Bill's marriage rules work out in the real world.
[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult, which you might know from the Duggar family.
[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband, and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.
[00:00:25] Alright, welcome back to the next episode. What do you have for us tonight, Amanda?
[00:00:34] First, welcome back. I missed you. I'm sure listeners missed you.
[00:00:40] Uh, I have been gone for a bit. Yep. It's been, it's been a month.
[00:00:45] We burned through all of the backlog episodes and then I still did one by myself last week.
[00:00:51] And now you're home, which is wonderful.
[00:00:55] Feels good to be back.
[00:00:56] Feels really good to have you back. That was, let's not do that so much. I don't know. I feel like you've traveled so much and I've traveled so much
[00:01:04] in the last year. I'm just ready for a stint where we're both at home being introverts together for a long period of time.
[00:01:14] We'll see. You travel a lot for work.
[00:01:17] Also, you have to like hold my hand through this whole episode. Like you literally just got back, you guys.
[00:01:21] We, I was gonna record an episode by myself again and then you rolled in like super early this morning. It's Sunday. Like this episode is gonna release in a few hours.
[00:01:34] So we decided to let you sleep. So you slept a lot today. And then now we're doing this.
[00:01:41] Not at all.
[00:01:43] Not at all for getting in at 3am.
[00:01:47] But yeah, you have to like, now that you're home, you have to hold my hand for the whole episode.
[00:01:51] Okay.
[00:01:52] So, and that's like romantic and good because we're gonna talk about us. Finally, we're gonna, we told everyone we would share our story after all of the marriage purposes, blah, blah, blah, yuck, Bill.
[00:02:10] And then you were gone and we just never had a chance to record that. So, Kyle, why don't you tell everyone how we met?
[00:02:18] On Tinder.
[00:02:18] No!
[00:02:23] That's the story, Amanda.
[00:02:25] This is the story you like to tell, but it is not the true story.
[00:02:29] Okay, it was a dating app.
[00:02:31] But it was not Tinder. Tell the people why it was not Tinder.
[00:02:36] I, I don't know.
[00:02:37] I'm scared of Tinder.
[00:02:39] Oh, you.
[00:02:39] I was on it for like three seconds once after my divorce.
[00:02:44] And it was, um, very scary. I kept getting proposition for threesomes by married couples.
[00:02:50] And I was like, this is not my area.
[00:02:53] This is, this is not my dating app.
[00:02:56] This is not the right place for me.
[00:02:59] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:00] So instead I was on Bumble and Hinge.
[00:03:03] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:04] Yes.
[00:03:05] Um, and we met on Hinge.
[00:03:08] Yep.
[00:03:09] I was on Bumble and Hinge too.
[00:03:12] Aw.
[00:03:12] I never saw you on Bumble.
[00:03:13] I never saw you on Bumble.
[00:03:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:16] Kyle, why did Bumble when I keep us apart?
[00:03:19] I don't know.
[00:03:20] Probably because you had like a million requests on there and I wasn't one of them.
[00:03:27] Yeah.
[00:03:28] You know what I'm talking about.
[00:03:33] Whatever.
[00:03:34] I don't know what to say to that.
[00:03:36] Uh-huh.
[00:03:37] Uh-huh.
[00:03:40] So, yeah.
[00:03:41] I mean, it was during the COVID times.
[00:03:43] And I had a strict no dating anyone at work policy.
[00:03:47] Well, you were in the military so that.
[00:03:49] Well, and I was like on this base that was super locked down and you passed everyone in
[00:03:58] the halls.
[00:03:59] Like, I don't know.
[00:03:59] Just, I didn't feel great about dating anyone.
[00:04:05] Well, at least not in my organization.
[00:04:07] I think I went on dates with some people who were stationed at the same base but not at
[00:04:12] all part of my organization.
[00:04:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:04:14] And even that was a little like, ah, too much.
[00:04:19] And I worked so much.
[00:04:21] Like, if I wasn't at work, I was at the gym because peachy tests and then I was home being
[00:04:27] an introvert.
[00:04:29] So, I didn't really have time to date.
[00:04:32] And then COVID happened.
[00:04:34] And like, the only men I had contact with were at work.
[00:04:39] And I was like, no, this is an absolute no.
[00:04:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:04:42] So, dating apps were kind of the only way I could meet men who weren't on base.
[00:04:48] It was just hard.
[00:04:49] I don't know.
[00:04:50] I also had my settings like super restrictive.
[00:04:53] Exactly.
[00:04:53] I got to the point where Hinge was showing me like maybe one dude a week.
[00:04:58] Maybe every two weeks.
[00:05:00] In a big city.
[00:05:01] Yeah.
[00:05:01] This was in Colorado Springs.
[00:05:04] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:05] Okay.
[00:05:06] So, that was how I behaved on dating apps.
[00:05:08] What were you doing on dating apps?
[00:05:10] Being sick and tired of them.
[00:05:12] Uh-huh.
[00:05:12] But the scrolling and getting on there and swiping and reading, you know, a paragraph about
[00:05:18] people and looking at pictures and like, it was just very time consuming and not at all
[00:05:24] fun.
[00:05:25] And did you have your settings really tight?
[00:05:29] I didn't.
[00:05:30] You did it?
[00:05:31] No.
[00:05:32] I don't think we talked about this.
[00:05:34] What?
[00:05:34] Have we talked about this?
[00:05:36] You were just like out there in the wild.
[00:05:39] I was pretty open to-
[00:05:41] What?
[00:05:42] To like age ranges.
[00:05:46] I don't think I put any restrictions on like religion or because that was an option.
[00:05:51] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:53] I forget what all the like settings were.
[00:05:56] Oh, like height, I think is probably.
[00:05:58] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:58] I had one for height because I would go out with, okay.
[00:06:03] Here we go.
[00:06:04] So, men who are shorter than me would just get so insecure so fast.
[00:06:08] They would be like, it's fine.
[00:06:09] They would bring it up first on the apps.
[00:06:11] Like, oh, you're tall because I'm almost six feet tall.
[00:06:14] And, you know, every guy on a dating app who says he's like 5'10 is actually 5'6.
[00:06:19] Mm-hmm.
[00:06:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:06:22] And then, you know, the ones who were actually like 5'10, we'd meet up.
[00:06:26] We'd go out for like coffee or something.
[00:06:28] And they would just like come back to my height over and over again.
[00:06:32] Like, wow, you really are tall.
[00:06:33] Wow.
[00:06:34] When you said you're 5'11, like you're actually 5'11.
[00:06:36] Wow.
[00:06:37] Like, and I had people who would tell me like, oh, man, you make me feel so like emasculated
[00:06:42] with your height and stuff.
[00:06:43] So, I actually, yeah, I had a filter for height.
[00:06:46] It's like, I'm over this.
[00:06:48] I went too after that experience.
[00:06:49] I'm over this.
[00:06:50] Like, you're taller than me.
[00:06:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:06:53] I put it taller.
[00:06:54] I think I put like six feet or 6'2 or something because my experience was men lied about their
[00:07:01] height.
[00:07:01] So, if I put like 6'2, they were probably 5'11.
[00:07:05] And then, they would at least be my height and hopefully not be mean about it.
[00:07:11] Okay.
[00:07:11] So, you didn't have any.
[00:07:12] Oh, you didn't have any.
[00:07:13] I mean, I'm trying to think if I had any.
[00:07:19] Oh, smoking was a deal breaker.
[00:07:21] I had that on there.
[00:07:22] I'm allergic to cigarette smoke.
[00:07:22] So, that was a good one.
[00:07:23] No smoking.
[00:07:24] I think that might have been like the only no I had on my filters.
[00:07:30] I also filtered for age because also of my experience dating.
[00:07:36] Men under the age of 36 were not mature enough.
[00:07:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:42] And you were too young.
[00:07:43] You were 34.
[00:07:43] I don't know how you slipped through my like restrictive setting.
[00:07:48] I didn't lie.
[00:07:49] Well, that's true.
[00:07:50] But like why did Hinge show you?
[00:07:54] Maybe that's why.
[00:07:55] Maybe that's why Bumble respected my boundaries.
[00:07:58] Oh.
[00:07:59] And Hinge did not.
[00:08:03] I thought I had it set for 36.
[00:08:06] Yeah.
[00:08:06] I don't know.
[00:08:07] I might have had it set for 34 because I was 32 when we met and you were 34.
[00:08:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:13] Yeah.
[00:08:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:16] Oh, man.
[00:08:19] Or I guess I just turned 33 and you were about to turn 35.
[00:08:24] That, yeah, that's how it was.
[00:08:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:27] But you were just out there in the wild with like no restrictions except no smoking.
[00:08:33] I feel like there was another one, but that was it.
[00:08:35] And I had an age range just set up on there.
[00:08:37] I just was pretty relaxed.
[00:08:40] I hadn't dated a bunch of people like after my divorce to know like, oh, that's too young.
[00:08:46] You had or hadn't.
[00:08:47] Or like, oh, hadn't.
[00:08:47] Okay.
[00:08:48] But you told me that you were screening, like you knew what you wanted.
[00:08:54] Yeah.
[00:08:54] And you were just like hyper screening people.
[00:08:57] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:57] And you only asked out women who met the criteria, right?
[00:09:01] Yeah.
[00:09:02] Yeah.
[00:09:02] I mean, I guess I had, again, this was during COVID times.
[00:09:06] Like literally everything was closed.
[00:09:07] The movie theater was closed.
[00:09:08] The bars were closed.
[00:09:09] The coffee shops were closed.
[00:09:11] The restaurants were closed.
[00:09:12] You could only get takeout.
[00:09:13] Like there was literally nowhere to go.
[00:09:15] And it was winter in Colorado.
[00:09:17] Yeah.
[00:09:18] So.
[00:09:19] It was, there was a lot of chat conversations in the apps.
[00:09:23] So yeah, like I had screened further, you know, after talking to people in the apps.
[00:09:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:09:30] But yeah, I had a list of like, here's the, here's what I'm looking for.
[00:09:36] And you met those that, that list that I had written down that you weren't aware of.
[00:09:42] I don't remember if I had a list.
[00:09:44] I think I was just looking for someone like emotionally intelligent, self-aware, mature,
[00:09:50] and in a place where they were ready to commit to a serious relationship.
[00:09:56] With a growth mindset and tall.
[00:10:00] And preferably 36.
[00:10:03] Or higher.
[00:10:04] Yes.
[00:10:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:06] And someone, like a huge one was someone who could, who could accept my inability to have
[00:10:12] biological children.
[00:10:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:14] That was a huge, cause I, I figured out really fast in dating that I needed to lead with that.
[00:10:21] Like before I even met for a first date, usually I had that out there.
[00:10:28] Um, like if we matched and we had like a good conversation going and there was like some good
[00:10:33] rapport and it, it seemed like someone I would want to meet in person.
[00:10:38] Mm-hmm.
[00:10:38] I learned fast.
[00:10:40] I needed to put that out there, uh, because a lot of people would be like, Amanda, you seem
[00:10:45] like a lovely person, but that's like a non-starter for me.
[00:10:48] So let's, let's not waste each other's time.
[00:10:51] Uh, there were a couple of people I went out with on a handful of dates, um, while they
[00:10:58] processed if they could handle that.
[00:11:00] And usually it was no with a small number of exceptions.
[00:11:04] That was, that was probably one of the biggest things for me is like, okay, does this
[00:11:10] person meet all of my criteria for a partner?
[00:11:13] Plus, oh, just like this big bomb over here of I can't have biological kids.
[00:11:17] How do you feel about that?
[00:11:19] Stranger.
[00:11:20] So.
[00:11:21] Yeah.
[00:11:21] I remember you bringing that up before we had met.
[00:11:25] Yeah.
[00:11:26] In person.
[00:11:27] So, so we matched because I'm a morning person.
[00:11:30] Listen, this is, this is how this went down folks.
[00:11:34] It was new year's Eve and I had gone on a little adventure by myself with my dog.
[00:11:41] I was in Aspen, Colorado.
[00:11:44] Um, and I was having a lovely little time by myself, but I drove out to Aspen on new year's
[00:11:51] Eve and I gotten up really early that morning.
[00:11:53] Here's the funny thing.
[00:11:54] I sold my wedding ring that morning.
[00:11:57] I finally like, I had, I just been like lugging that little thing around forever.
[00:12:03] And it was, it just felt like an emotional weight.
[00:12:07] And so I listed it on Facebook marketplace and someone reached out and they were like,
[00:12:12] Hey, I want to buy this.
[00:12:14] So I met up with him that morning, sold the ring and drove off to Aspen.
[00:12:19] So we got there.
[00:12:21] And the dog, me and the dog.
[00:12:25] And it's this like storybook, little Hallmark town.
[00:12:28] I kid you not right outside of Aspen is that's where I stayed.
[00:12:32] And there was an ice skating rink and they had like free ice skates and anyone could go
[00:12:38] skate there.
[00:12:39] So it's, it's after dark new year's Eve.
[00:12:42] I just, Oh, I'm going to walk down there.
[00:12:44] I'm going to skate.
[00:12:44] So I like walk across the little tiny town where there's no cell reception and grab some
[00:12:50] free skates.
[00:12:51] And I had my headphones and I was listening to classical music and like skating under the
[00:12:57] string lights.
[00:12:57] I had the whole ring to myself with like the outline of the, the mountains and the stars.
[00:13:04] Oh my God, the stars.
[00:13:05] It was so magical.
[00:13:06] And I just remember thinking like, you know what?
[00:13:10] This, this is okay.
[00:13:12] Like I'm, I'm good.
[00:13:14] I'm good.
[00:13:15] I have a beautiful life.
[00:13:17] I'm going to get emotional thinking about all this.
[00:13:22] Um, and I'm happy and I'm enough for myself.
[00:13:25] And, um, I'm just, I was experiencing a lot of gratitude in that moment that I, that I
[00:13:32] could go off and have those adventures and take my dog, even though he's really weird and,
[00:13:36] you know, just go have fun.
[00:13:38] He loves snow.
[00:13:39] We were running around in the snow earlier that day and I was ice skating under the stars.
[00:13:43] And I go back to my little Airbnb and I'm like, crap, I've got to stay awake for like
[00:13:49] five more hours for, for new year's.
[00:13:54] So I got on the dating apps.
[00:13:56] That's, that's yeah.
[00:13:58] And then it showed me you and you were new.
[00:14:01] It hadn't shown me anyone new in forever.
[00:14:03] I was trying to think that I, cause hinge worked differently than Bumble.
[00:14:07] Bumble, we both had to match.
[00:14:09] And then hinge, was that the same way?
[00:14:11] So with Bumble, like the women, you had to take the first, yeah, the women have to initiate
[00:14:19] initiate on hinge.
[00:14:21] It's not, you just match and then either person.
[00:14:24] So I matched with you.
[00:14:25] I swiped right on you.
[00:14:28] And then I forget, did you say something first?
[00:14:31] I think you must've said something first.
[00:14:32] No, I probably like I would have.
[00:14:35] Oh yeah.
[00:14:36] Yeah.
[00:14:39] And then we just started having a great conversation.
[00:14:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:14:42] I asked you what you were doing for new year's Eve.
[00:14:44] I don't even, I think I was just up.
[00:14:47] You had.
[00:14:48] I was up doom scrolling the, the, the dating apps and watching movie or no, I was, I was
[00:14:56] on the computer.
[00:14:56] No, cause you told me you were doing what every self-respecting single person does on
[00:15:01] new year's Eve.
[00:15:02] And I quote, get drunk and watch movies.
[00:15:05] You're like, I'm at home watching movies alone.
[00:15:07] Yeah.
[00:15:08] It was really clever.
[00:15:09] And I liked it.
[00:15:10] I was drinking.
[00:15:11] I was drinking too.
[00:15:13] Um, but not much cause it was really high elevation and I like, I was a super lightweight.
[00:15:20] So I, I slowed down and I had like some champagne I was sipping or, um, you use proper grammar
[00:15:27] and punctuation.
[00:15:28] You were interesting to talk to.
[00:15:31] And we just kind of like started bantering like this, I guess.
[00:15:37] And I told, and then you asked me what I was looking for, right?
[00:15:40] Or one of us said like, what are you know, the typical cliche dating app question?
[00:15:44] What are you looking for on hinge?
[00:15:46] Well, I mean, hinge is a little different in, you know, if you haven't been on dating apps,
[00:15:52] they're not all the same.
[00:15:53] And hinge was, I guess, more geared or oriented to people looking for serious relationships
[00:16:01] and not just dating or hookups.
[00:16:04] It's like the antithesis of Tinder.
[00:16:06] That's probably a good way to put it.
[00:16:08] Yeah.
[00:16:09] Or it was, this was a while ago.
[00:16:11] So I felt a little, you know, felt a little more comfortable asking serious questions,
[00:16:18] like right off the bat.
[00:16:19] Yeah.
[00:16:19] And I think I told you that first night because, oh, I told you about ice skating.
[00:16:27] And I said, I, I was fishing a little bit.
[00:16:32] You thought you were being so sneaky.
[00:16:35] I was kind of subtle.
[00:16:36] Well, I had so much fun ice skating that I'd already gotten tickets to go take myself ice
[00:16:42] skating downtown Colorado Springs the next week.
[00:16:46] And I mentioned that.
[00:16:48] And I was hoping that you would say like, oh, I'd love to go with you.
[00:16:54] And then you did.
[00:16:56] It was subtle.
[00:17:00] Yes.
[00:17:01] In a way that I wasn't inviting myself to your event.
[00:17:04] What do you mean?
[00:17:07] I wasn't going to invite myself to your party.
[00:17:10] Oh, well, I mean, you were supposed to ask to come with me and then you did.
[00:17:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:15] So it was brilliant.
[00:17:17] Well, I think I asked, I scheduled or asked if you wanted to go a different date and time.
[00:17:22] Oh, you couldn't go the day or there were no tickets left for the day.
[00:17:26] No tickets left.
[00:17:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:28] So we moved it to a different day.
[00:17:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] And then we chatted.
[00:17:35] You asked me what I was looking for.
[00:17:36] I told you about how I can't have kids.
[00:17:39] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:39] That I was looking for something serious.
[00:17:41] And you said you were too or, you know, something like that.
[00:17:43] I have screenshots of all of this somewhere.
[00:17:45] She did.
[00:17:45] She went through.
[00:17:46] They're adorable.
[00:17:46] Before we deleted the dating app, you know, months later, she screenshotted the entire conversation
[00:17:53] from beginning to end.
[00:17:55] Actually.
[00:17:56] Days later.
[00:17:58] We'll get to that.
[00:18:00] I remember you, like, bringing that up, like, about not being able to have kids.
[00:18:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:06] And I was like, I didn't, like, that hadn't crossed my mind because, you know, it wasn't.
[00:18:13] You didn't, neither of us had kids from previous marriage.
[00:18:15] Right.
[00:18:15] From previous marriage.
[00:18:16] And I was open-minded to that.
[00:18:18] That wasn't restriction because that was also another option, like, kids or no kids.
[00:18:22] Yeah.
[00:18:23] I was open to either option there.
[00:18:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:28] And I gravitated towards men who had kids because I figured it would take pressure off a potential
[00:18:34] relationship.
[00:18:34] I mean, that would have worked out well for you.
[00:18:36] Yeah.
[00:18:36] Yeah.
[00:18:38] But I remember you bringing that up and I was like, well, I, you know, I had never even
[00:18:41] thought about that, but I'm interested in you and let's see how this goes.
[00:18:48] You had a really good response.
[00:18:49] Yeah.
[00:18:49] You thanked me for telling you.
[00:18:51] You said that was, like, important to know.
[00:18:53] And you asked if you could think about it as we, and said you wanted to keep getting to
[00:18:57] know me.
[00:18:58] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:58] So we went.
[00:19:00] Okay, wait.
[00:19:01] So it was so cute.
[00:19:03] I keep backpedaling so much.
[00:19:05] It was just really cute.
[00:19:07] And then we chatted on and off until midnight.
[00:19:12] And then you wished me a happy new year.
[00:19:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:15] So we said happy new year to each other.
[00:19:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:17] Day one.
[00:19:19] Uh-huh.
[00:19:20] That was the first that we, yeah, we matched on New Year's Eve.
[00:19:23] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:23] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:24] And then I went to sleep and I had planned, like, a whole snow adventure in Aspen the next
[00:19:32] day.
[00:19:32] I was at Snowmass all day.
[00:19:35] And you, you didn't message me until.
[00:19:42] It was in the afternoon.
[00:19:43] The afternoon.
[00:19:44] I forget if I reached out to you or you reached out to me, but you asked me if I was having
[00:19:48] a fun day in the snow.
[00:19:50] And we chatted a little bit.
[00:19:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:52] I reached out to you.
[00:19:54] Oh.
[00:19:54] I waited until later in the day just to check in.
[00:19:58] Being respectful of my adventure.
[00:20:00] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:01] Well, I like that about you.
[00:20:02] Like, that was kind of the first green flag for me.
[00:20:06] Aw.
[00:20:06] Was you were single and alone and you were out there doing what made you happy and taking
[00:20:13] yourself on your own trip and, you know, being independent?
[00:20:20] I liked that you weren't threatened by my independence.
[00:20:27] And then we chatted a little more that evening, right?
[00:20:29] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:30] And then, and I told you I was heading back to Colorado Springs.
[00:20:34] After you had a bunch of mulled wine?
[00:20:36] That was the night before.
[00:20:37] That was true.
[00:20:37] No, that was that night.
[00:20:38] That was that night, wasn't it?
[00:20:39] That was a problem.
[00:20:41] Because the elevation hit me so hard and I hadn't had enough to eat.
[00:20:47] And there was only like one restaurant and one hotel that had a restaurant in the whole town.
[00:20:53] So I walked, not drove, I walked myself down the road to the hotel and got dinner.
[00:21:00] I think I liked you.
[00:21:02] Mostly for your grammar punctuation.
[00:21:06] I'm not surprised by that.
[00:21:08] Very big deal.
[00:21:10] And then you messaged the next day and asked how my drive home was going.
[00:21:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:21:18] And then I-
[00:21:19] You were driving and you were driving for a long time.
[00:21:21] So I messaged you just to see how the drive was going.
[00:21:25] And then-
[00:21:26] And then I got home and decided to be super subtle again.
[00:21:35] Subtle, uh-huh.
[00:21:36] I got home and I messaged you and I was like, well, I'm back.
[00:21:40] I'm just not ready to be done with an adventure.
[00:21:42] I think I want to go out and like run around town or something.
[00:21:48] Mm-hmm.
[00:21:48] You said you weren't ready to be done adventuring or something like that.
[00:21:53] And I was like, I see your fishing attempts and I will take them.
[00:21:59] But it's not very subtle.
[00:22:03] Okay.
[00:22:03] To be fair, the second time I was not trying to be subtle.
[00:22:07] I was trying to like-
[00:22:09] Mm-hmm.
[00:22:10] Open the door very wide for you to say, let's go run around town together.
[00:22:16] Mm-hmm.
[00:22:16] Even though there was nothing to do.
[00:22:18] But you said, you know, it's Saturday night, weekend, or I think it was a weekend night.
[00:22:23] There's got to be something going on downtown.
[00:22:24] It was a Saturday because I said that.
[00:22:26] I was like, there's-
[00:22:27] I don't know what's happening, but it's Saturday and I'm sure there's something.
[00:22:30] So we met up downtown and ran around and looked at Christmas lights because that was like all there was to do.
[00:22:39] It was freezing.
[00:22:41] And the first thing I thought when you walked up to me was, okay, he's as tall as he said he was.
[00:22:49] Yes.
[00:22:52] You were-
[00:22:53] I think you were wearing heels.
[00:22:55] I was.
[00:22:56] So you were very tall, but I remember you were dressed in like all black and you looked really nice.
[00:23:05] And yeah, you were- how do I say this?
[00:23:08] You were very intimidating.
[00:23:11] Thank you.
[00:23:12] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:13] But not in a bad way.
[00:23:15] Tell me more.
[00:23:16] Tell me more.
[00:23:16] I mean, you're tall, but you also-
[00:23:19] I think I felt like you walked with a lot of purpose and maybe that's the best way of putting it.
[00:23:28] Like you just seemed very confident and made comfortable with yourself.
[00:23:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:34] Thank you.
[00:23:35] That's what I remember when you were walking towards me.
[00:23:37] I remember thinking she's hot and also very, very powerful.
[00:23:42] I think it says a lot about you that you didn't run away in that moment.
[00:23:47] I'm not scared.
[00:23:49] No.
[00:23:50] That's why I like you.
[00:23:52] And we-
[00:23:53] Yeah.
[00:23:54] We talked a lot that night.
[00:23:56] I was still recovering from surgery.
[00:23:58] Yep.
[00:23:59] For some of the medical stuff we referenced.
[00:24:02] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:03] And you had told me that when you were up in the mountains.
[00:24:06] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:06] You were doing stuff, but you were on light duty because-
[00:24:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:10] I was still in recovery.
[00:24:12] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:13] And so we walked around, looked at Christmas lights, and then we found a coffee shop that was open.
[00:24:18] For takeout.
[00:24:19] Well, no.
[00:24:20] Oh, yeah.
[00:24:20] You could sit in there.
[00:24:21] But they had the door open.
[00:24:22] Yeah.
[00:24:22] So it was cold.
[00:24:23] It was.
[00:24:24] And we sat by the door.
[00:24:25] But you could at least sit down and have a coffee.
[00:24:28] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:28] And that was like the first time you bought me my love language, which is coffee.
[00:24:36] Which I didn't know at the time.
[00:24:38] It was literally the only option there.
[00:24:39] And I took a coffee addict into a coffee shop.
[00:24:42] So let me just had a-
[00:24:45] Well, okay, wait.
[00:24:46] Wait.
[00:24:48] We have to tell the truth.
[00:24:49] I almost ditched on the date when I met you.
[00:24:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:52] Because you were silent and did not speak words.
[00:24:56] And I was like, oh, no.
[00:24:59] Another date where I have to do all of the labor of keeping the conversation going.
[00:25:05] At least we're walking around outside.
[00:25:06] And in a couple minutes, like 30 minutes, I can be like, oh, it's really great meeting you.
[00:25:10] I'm freezing cold.
[00:25:11] I got to go home and warm up.
[00:25:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:14] But we went in the coffee shop and sat down.
[00:25:17] And then you started talking.
[00:25:19] And you started talking about books.
[00:25:24] And personal growth.
[00:25:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:27] I did a lot of learning and growing after my divorce.
[00:25:32] And that was something I was big into.
[00:25:37] And-
[00:25:37] That really worked for me.
[00:25:41] I mean, that was also on the list.
[00:25:43] You know, I felt like it was very helpful.
[00:25:46] I know there's probably a big stigma around, like, self-help books.
[00:25:50] But I preferred that over therapy.
[00:25:55] And it was, you know, it was a good use of time during COVID.
[00:26:00] Lots of time to read.
[00:26:01] And, you know, I found some good books and podcasts to listen to.
[00:26:05] And that's kind of where I was at.
[00:26:10] My growing journey.
[00:26:12] And then you saw my wrist tattoo.
[00:26:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:16] And decided I might be more fun than I looked.
[00:26:18] That was another green flag for me.
[00:26:22] I was like, I don't think that was like an actual.
[00:26:26] That might have been a restriction or a filter on the apps, tattoos or not.
[00:26:32] I would have put yes on that one.
[00:26:35] Good, because I have a couple.
[00:26:37] Yes.
[00:26:38] But, I mean, you definitely were poised and well-spoken and smart.
[00:26:46] And then I saw a tattoo and I was like, that's interesting.
[00:26:53] There's a little more to me.
[00:26:55] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:56] There's some depth there.
[00:26:57] And you were smart and thoughtful when you started talking.
[00:27:06] I realized.
[00:27:07] I was listening.
[00:27:08] That was intentional.
[00:27:09] I was asking a lot of questions.
[00:27:11] You could have said more.
[00:27:13] I was asking questions and trying to get to know you.
[00:27:16] I was asking questions, too, and getting one-word answers.
[00:27:18] That's probably true.
[00:27:22] But you were smart and thoughtful.
[00:27:25] I was being susset.
[00:27:25] Thoughtful.
[00:27:26] Okay.
[00:27:27] Okay.
[00:27:28] And it was obvious you'd put a lot of thought into who you are and what you're about and
[00:27:34] who you wanted to be in a relationship.
[00:27:36] And if you ever had kids, who you wanted to be as a father and stuff like that.
[00:27:42] And you shared a little bit about your childhood with me.
[00:27:45] And there was a lot more to you than came through on a dating app.
[00:27:52] And then, I don't know, did we close down the coffee shop?
[00:27:57] We were.
[00:27:58] I think we did.
[00:27:59] We had a while.
[00:28:00] I think we probably left like 15 minutes or something before it closed, which I think
[00:28:05] was like nine or something.
[00:28:07] But yeah.
[00:28:08] And then you walked me to my car.
[00:28:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:10] After we broke the golden rule about talking about children on the first date, which you've
[00:28:15] had bad experiences with.
[00:28:19] Well, we'd already talked about it over messages.
[00:28:23] And then you walked me to my car.
[00:28:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:28] And you did not kiss me goodnight.
[00:28:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:32] This is a recurring theme where it was freezing cold outside and my nose was running.
[00:28:38] Well, I didn't know that.
[00:28:38] To wipe my nose in front of a woman and then lean in and kiss her.
[00:28:46] This is a theme that goes throughout our dating relationship of me being frozen cold and not
[00:28:53] being prepared with tissues so I can wipe my nose.
[00:28:56] And I wasn't about to kiss you and rub snot all over your face.
[00:29:01] So I kissed you on the cheek.
[00:29:03] Mm-hmm.
[00:29:04] Mm-hmm.
[00:29:06] And you...
[00:29:08] I still wasn't...
[00:29:09] Like, it still was the same problem.
[00:29:11] You thought about it.
[00:29:11] You...
[00:29:11] I did, but it was the same problem.
[00:29:13] You were...
[00:29:14] I was like, oh, that was interesting because, like, you didn't kiss my cheek back or anything.
[00:29:20] Because I got a big nose and if I would have kissed you, it would have got on your face.
[00:29:27] So I get in my car and I call my BFF and I'm like, I don't know what to think, man.
[00:29:33] I just had a really great date with this guy after, like, talking to him for several days.
[00:29:38] Like, a respectable, respectful amount.
[00:29:41] We weren't just, like, you know, ignoring life and blowing up each other's phones.
[00:29:45] But we'd had good conversations over three days.
[00:29:47] We had this lovely long date, connected, talked.
[00:29:51] And then he didn't kiss me goodnight.
[00:29:52] And I'm not usually one to, like, kiss on a first date.
[00:29:56] But also, it was a different first date.
[00:30:01] And you didn't kiss me.
[00:30:02] So you're just...
[00:30:04] I'm sorry.
[00:30:05] I will never let this down.
[00:30:05] You're never going to live that down.
[00:30:07] So I get up.
[00:30:08] I call my friend.
[00:30:09] I'm like, I don't know.
[00:30:10] I don't know if he likes me.
[00:30:12] Like, I kissed him on the cheek.
[00:30:13] But he just kind of, like, hugged me.
[00:30:16] And then...
[00:30:16] I don't know.
[00:30:17] So I didn't know what to think of it.
[00:30:19] So I went home.
[00:30:19] You went home.
[00:30:20] And then the next day you asked me to go hiking with you in the snow.
[00:30:26] And that was...
[00:30:27] I think we've talked about this story before.
[00:30:29] That was the day you found out I grew up in a cult.
[00:30:34] Yeah, that was a...
[00:30:37] That was...
[00:30:38] I remember that.
[00:30:40] I remember walking up that hill.
[00:30:43] And you had said you were writing a book.
[00:30:46] And I was like, oh.
[00:30:48] Like, that's...
[00:30:49] That's interesting.
[00:30:49] And I'd just been invited to be on the podcast.
[00:30:51] Yes.
[00:30:52] Someone else's podcast.
[00:30:52] Yeah, I think that was the catalyst there.
[00:30:54] You were talking about being on a podcast.
[00:30:56] And I was like, what for?
[00:30:57] And you said, oh, I wrote a book about how to respond when someone tells you they've been sexually assaulted.
[00:31:03] Well, that was also the day you found out I was a sexual assault survivor.
[00:31:06] Yeah.
[00:31:07] Second day.
[00:31:08] This is normal, guys.
[00:31:09] This is real normal.
[00:31:09] It's fine.
[00:31:10] It's fine.
[00:31:10] Yeah, a lot of stuff came out that day.
[00:31:15] And so you had to tell the whole story at that point.
[00:31:20] It was abbreviated.
[00:31:21] Oh, yeah.
[00:31:22] But yes, I did.
[00:31:24] What were you thinking?
[00:31:27] I thought you were very normal for someone that grew up in a cult.
[00:31:30] Thank you.
[00:31:32] I was like, I wouldn't have guessed that.
[00:31:34] So far, everything seemed normal.
[00:31:38] You talked like normal.
[00:31:40] You were in the military.
[00:31:42] You know, there was nothing that stood out like there's something weird about this person, you know?
[00:31:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:48] And so I think because of that, I was just like, oh, like that's okay.
[00:31:56] That's interesting.
[00:31:57] But yeah, it wasn't.
[00:32:00] It was a point of interest, I guess, but not a red flag just because you'd seem so normal.
[00:32:05] Normal.
[00:32:06] To me, I would expect somebody that grew up in a cult to have social behaviors that are different.
[00:32:14] And I didn't see that.
[00:32:15] So I was like, okay.
[00:32:15] Yeah, I was back in college.
[00:32:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:19] Ash and Mandy helped me iron a lot of those out.
[00:32:23] Yeah.
[00:32:23] Yeah.
[00:32:24] And then we got up to this beautiful hilltop.
[00:32:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:27] Looking at the mountains.
[00:32:27] The beautiful view.
[00:32:29] And you didn't kiss me there either.
[00:32:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:32] You stopped and paused and waited.
[00:32:33] And I was like, shit.
[00:32:35] You didn't predict you.
[00:32:36] Here we go again.
[00:32:37] I didn't.
[00:32:37] I was not prepared.
[00:32:38] Kyle.
[00:32:39] I failed myself as a scout.
[00:32:43] And then we walked back to our cars.
[00:32:46] Mm-hmm.
[00:32:47] And.
[00:32:48] Paused again.
[00:32:49] Oh, I remember what it was.
[00:32:52] Yes, I did.
[00:32:53] You hugged me.
[00:32:54] And it was like a big bear hug.
[00:32:56] Like, it was a lovely hug.
[00:32:57] And our faces were like right there next to each other.
[00:33:00] And we were joking.
[00:33:01] And we'd been joking for days that when we went ice skating a few days later, you were going to fall and hurt yourself.
[00:33:08] Because you're not a good ice skater.
[00:33:11] And I've been ice skating like tons of times.
[00:33:15] And you were making a joke about how you were going to fall and like gravely injure yourself.
[00:33:21] And I said something about how I could give you mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
[00:33:26] Oh, I forgot about this.
[00:33:29] And our faces were like, like our noses were almost touching.
[00:33:33] And I remember thinking like, well, is he going to kiss me now?
[00:33:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:33:39] And you didn't.
[00:33:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:33:41] And we drove away.
[00:33:43] And this time I was pissed off.
[00:33:44] So I called my best friend again.
[00:33:46] And I was like, you're never going to believe what happened with this guy again.
[00:33:50] Like, what is, what's wrong?
[00:33:52] Like, am I not pretty?
[00:33:53] Like, what's going on?
[00:33:56] Yeah, that was, that was my mistake.
[00:33:59] Like, I was, I definitely wanted to.
[00:34:02] Oh, good.
[00:34:02] But I didn't want the first one to be me rubbing snot on your face.
[00:34:06] Well.
[00:34:06] And I was not prepared for that.
[00:34:10] And so, yeah, twice I failed.
[00:34:13] So then you invited me to watch Star Wars.
[00:34:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:18] Because we had already connected over being Star Wars nerds.
[00:34:21] I was working my way through The Mandalorian and you, I think you had already seen it.
[00:34:25] I'd already seen it.
[00:34:26] And I was, I feel like I was like right in the middle of it or something.
[00:34:30] I was like, well, you want to come finish watching it with me?
[00:34:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:34] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:34] So the next day.
[00:34:36] Yeah.
[00:34:36] And why did you not show up, Amanda?
[00:34:39] No, I did show up.
[00:34:41] Hang on.
[00:34:41] Hang on, hang on, hang on.
[00:34:43] We have to press pause for one moment.
[00:34:46] You, it was the same day as the hike.
[00:34:48] That evening you were like, you want to come watch Mandalorian?
[00:34:51] Well, I, I was pulling into a restaurant for a dinner date with someone and I was so torn
[00:34:57] because I didn't want to go on this date, but like a lot of things were happening.
[00:35:04] Okay, number one, this person had planned this date with me like two weeks before.
[00:35:09] This person was driving in from like 90 minutes away to have dinner with me.
[00:35:14] And you didn't kiss me that night after we connected.
[00:35:18] So I didn't know if you were that into me.
[00:35:20] And then the next day when you asked me to go hiking, it was already like too late to cancel on,
[00:35:26] on dude driving in for dinner.
[00:35:29] And then you didn't kiss me again.
[00:35:31] And so I was like, okay, I don't know.
[00:35:34] Maybe he just like, this isn't the thing.
[00:35:38] So I decided to just keep living.
[00:35:40] I was just going to keep living my life and keep my plans.
[00:35:43] And I'm pulling into dinner with this guy and you reach out for the third time
[00:35:48] and want me to come watch the Mandalorian with you this time.
[00:35:50] And I'm like, oh, shit.
[00:35:52] I would so much rather go watch the Mandalorian with Kyle than meet up with this guy for dinner.
[00:35:59] But like he was already there and I'm a nice person.
[00:36:03] Like I'm a kind, ethical person.
[00:36:05] I couldn't be like, sorry that you just drove an hour and a half to have dinner with me
[00:36:10] after we planned it for two weeks.
[00:36:12] I'm ditching.
[00:36:15] So I'm like trying to keep an open mind.
[00:36:18] I walk into the restaurant.
[00:36:19] I see that he shakes my hand.
[00:36:21] Oh, no.
[00:36:22] And I'm like, no, this is not the thing.
[00:36:23] Like you got to at least give me a hug or this is not the thing.
[00:36:27] So he shook my hand and I got through dinner as fast as I could.
[00:36:31] I don't like dinner as a first date because then you're like stuck, you know?
[00:36:35] It's pretty.
[00:36:36] That's a big commitment.
[00:36:37] It's too serious for a first date.
[00:36:38] To his credit, he was like, you are a classy lady and you should be taken to dinner.
[00:36:43] Like he was trying to be respectful in it, not like I'm going to make you stuck at dinner with me for an hour and a half.
[00:36:52] Like he was trying to do it right.
[00:36:54] That's how he put it.
[00:36:55] Yeah, I disagree.
[00:36:57] But we'll give him credit for making a solid effort.
[00:37:02] And I just knew like immediately there wasn't a connection, but we had dinner.
[00:37:06] It was a nice restaurant.
[00:37:08] And then he shook my hand goodbye.
[00:37:11] So I think I texted you.
[00:37:14] I was like, what time for Mandalorian tomorrow?
[00:37:18] I think I told you I could watch the next day.
[00:37:22] Shame on me, but I think I went to the restroom and texted you in the middle of that day.
[00:37:27] I feel really guilty about that, actually.
[00:37:30] Oh, well.
[00:37:31] I ended up married to you, so I guess it all worked out.
[00:37:35] So the next day I go over to your place.
[00:37:37] We watched Mandalorian.
[00:37:39] Took you like three episodes to kiss me.
[00:37:42] It did, but my nose wasn't running.
[00:37:44] It wasn't.
[00:37:45] But I was like, okay.
[00:37:49] Because we were kind of like cuddled up.
[00:37:51] We were, yeah, on the couch watching.
[00:37:52] Yeah, you had your arm around me.
[00:37:55] I think I even put my head on your shoulder.
[00:37:57] You did.
[00:37:57] You were leaned up against me or like laying on my shoulder.
[00:38:00] Uh-huh.
[00:38:01] And there was like nothing.
[00:38:02] And then, you know, roll credits and then nothing.
[00:38:05] I wasn't going to dive right in.
[00:38:07] Roll credits and then.
[00:38:08] No.
[00:38:09] We were in the middle of the third episode that night.
[00:38:12] And then you finally kissed me.
[00:38:14] And I will say it was epic.
[00:38:16] Mm-hmm.
[00:38:17] It was an epic first kiss.
[00:38:20] Well, it's better than a snotty kiss on the side of the hill.
[00:38:22] Very much worth waiting for.
[00:38:26] It was intentional.
[00:38:27] And then we made it official like a week later.
[00:38:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:38:33] And yeah, the rest is history.
[00:38:36] Yep.
[00:38:37] That is how our dating relationship started.
[00:38:41] So you must be a pretty, well, I mean, not must.
[00:38:47] I know this about you.
[00:38:48] Like you're a pretty steady person because I'm like, hi, I can't have kids.
[00:38:52] And you're like, okay.
[00:38:53] Okay.
[00:38:54] And also I was like sexually assaulted by my older brother.
[00:38:57] No big deal.
[00:38:57] Like my whole childhood.
[00:38:58] And you're like, okay.
[00:38:59] Oh, and I was in a cult.
[00:39:01] Same conversation.
[00:39:02] I was also like, I grew up in a cult.
[00:39:05] And you were like, okay.
[00:39:06] I mean, those are.
[00:39:07] Didn't really rattle you.
[00:39:09] I guess if you looked at those things from the outside or those were things to investigate for me.
[00:39:15] And I think if you take it all out of context, you'd be like, oh, those are all red flags.
[00:39:20] Like pass.
[00:39:23] Man, I think especially for guys, like that's probably just more.
[00:39:29] Those are things they would just kind of be like, that's more than I want to deal with.
[00:39:33] I think those are my, some of my green flags for you because I will own that I've, I've done a lot of work to heal and recover so that I'm not super scary around like those topics.
[00:39:47] But also the fact that you could see that and like internalize it and make meaning of like how I talked about it.
[00:39:55] Those were really big green flags for me about you.
[00:40:01] Yeah.
[00:40:01] And I think that's why they weren't red flags for me is like.
[00:40:07] I could see, you know, those are obviously huge.
[00:40:12] Traumatic experiences.
[00:40:15] And it, I think it said to me, it said something about you that you, you had went through all of those things and you came out the other side.
[00:40:24] Like in a good place and you had put the work into, to be in a good place and air quotes like normal.
[00:40:36] And so like, I think that told me a lot about who you were and kind of how you, you process things or how you're able to process things.
[00:40:46] I think it's so interesting, like sitting here talking about this, like how, how important it was to both of us that there was like a message.
[00:40:54] And how that was like a measure of healing in both of our lives around our traumatic stuff.
[00:41:00] And how that was like criteria and things we would call like red flags, green flags, you know, stuff like that.
[00:41:10] Cause I don't, I don't think that that's like, I want to be very aware for our listeners that that's not everyone's experience.
[00:41:16] Like a lot of people are out there dating and in relationships with unresolved trauma and that's okay.
[00:41:22] Um, and that's been me at various times in my life too.
[00:41:26] I think that what I want you y'all to take away from this story isn't like, well, you have to arrive or you won't have a good relationship.
[00:41:35] Like you have to be perfectly healed or like, no, I think there's, there's beauty and like healing together.
[00:41:41] There's beauty and exploring trauma together.
[00:41:43] Like that's all good.
[00:41:45] This is just how our story went because of where we were in our lives.
[00:41:49] And we think it's romantic and fun.
[00:41:51] Um, and it is romantic and fun.
[00:41:53] There's nothing, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we had both addressed a lot of our, our past hurts before we met.
[00:41:59] But that's just the way this story happened to go.
[00:42:02] And when I, when I was saying that like it, you had been through much of trauma and I can see that you were, I wouldn't say past it.
[00:42:12] I think I'm probably phrased it that way, but like, those are things that you, you were able to talk about.
[00:42:18] And so like you, you were at least in the, in the phase of being through the healing process or like you were in the healing process of that.
[00:42:29] Um, which that was like the green flag to me is that you, you weren't just.
[00:42:35] Like stuck at the starting line.
[00:42:37] You were somewhere along in the race there.
[00:42:42] And you know, that's, that's really the important part is just, you were, you were moving forward and it wasn't that you were at the end.
[00:42:52] And I still wouldn't classify that as the case when we met.
[00:42:56] Um, but you were further trauma.
[00:43:00] Yeah.
[00:43:01] With the cult stuff like that was newer for me to talk about.
[00:43:04] Yeah.
[00:43:05] Yeah.
[00:43:06] So.
[00:43:08] And I think for you, would, would you be all right?
[00:43:11] Sharing.
[00:43:12] Mm hmm.
[00:43:13] About your dad.
[00:43:15] Yeah.
[00:43:15] I don't remember at what point I told you.
[00:43:17] On our first date.
[00:43:18] Did I?
[00:43:18] Yeah.
[00:43:19] No.
[00:43:20] Cause we were, we were kind of comparing notes about, I think it came up in the context of, we were talking about like my surgery and how I couldn't have kids.
[00:43:30] And that was like, that was a thing that was still really hard for me.
[00:43:34] And I had probably like teared up talking about it and, and stuff like that.
[00:43:38] And I think to kind of meet me with some vulnerability you shared about your dad at that point.
[00:43:49] Yeah.
[00:43:50] I mean, that was, that's exactly what it was.
[00:43:53] Like, that's not something I enjoy talking about.
[00:43:57] Um, but I could see your, you were being vulnerable with me and kind of taking that leap.
[00:44:05] So I followed suit and, you know, I told you that, you know, my dad had committed suicide when I was a kid.
[00:44:14] Um, and I, I feel like I was bringing this up in relationship to like the kids thing.
[00:44:20] Cause I think you were, you were asking me questions about like what I would be as a father.
[00:44:27] I don't, I don't think we've gotten to that point quite yet.
[00:44:29] That was a couple of dates later.
[00:44:31] Okay.
[00:44:31] I mean, I'm pretty bold, but that, that would have been a lot for a first date.
[00:44:35] So tell me how you imagine yourself as a father.
[00:44:39] But yeah, that you did tell me there was something about kids.
[00:44:44] There was something, it related, you tied it in.
[00:44:49] And I think you're still on that healing journey.
[00:44:54] Yeah.
[00:44:55] I mean, it's, I mean, especially as being like being a man, it's, it's hard losing a parent no matter what.
[00:45:03] But I feel like when it's the same gender, uh, or, you know, it's your boy and it's your dad, uh, it impacts you a certain way.
[00:45:14] And I think that's where I was tying that into is because right, wrong or indifferent, like being raised as a boy by a woman has, there are impacts there.
[00:45:27] Um, they're not wrong or intentional by any means, but like not having a father figure as a boy, like there are consequences to that.
[00:45:38] And you can see that in a zillion different types of studies and the impacts of that.
[00:45:45] Um, and so I think that was, that was really the journey that I was on at the time is trying to unpack that and figure out like, what does it mean to be a man?
[00:45:56] Cause I didn't have that modeled for me, uh, during the time in which that would have been, you know, the teenage years is usually when you would pick up a lot of that stuff.
[00:46:10] Like how does, how does your dad treat your mom?
[00:46:14] Like when you start getting into the dating phase as a kid, like that's, those are your role models.
[00:46:19] And that's where you kind of look to model that.
[00:46:23] And I didn't, I didn't have that.
[00:46:25] So I was on obviously back in the dating game and trying to figure out, uh, how to date and be in a relationship, uh, in a healthy way.
[00:46:42] And I think, I think that that was another green flag for me about you, that you were willing to share that with me.
[00:46:53] Um, and that you were willing to be vulnerable about the fact that it was, it was a wound that was still open for you.
[00:47:03] Um, and something you were still actively engaged in working on.
[00:47:09] Um, but I liked that you didn't just like shy away from it or try to hide it.
[00:47:16] Yeah.
[00:47:16] I guess I never even thought about that.
[00:47:18] Like I was coming from a place of like, I was actually proud of like trying being in that journey and that process and trying to figure that out instead of just faking that.
[00:47:28] Like, I know what the hell I'm doing.
[00:47:29] It was like, I didn't really have this model for me.
[00:47:32] So I'm trying to figure this out.
[00:47:34] Um, and I didn't, I guess I didn't present it to you that way that like, that's what I was doing.
[00:47:42] I was trying to figure out how to, to be a man in a relationship.
[00:47:49] Too bad you didn't have Bill there to tell you how.
[00:47:51] Oh, right.
[00:47:53] Yeah.
[00:47:53] So this is really helpful for you, right?
[00:47:56] Like the seven basic needs of a husband.
[00:47:58] Where was that when you needed it, Kyle?
[00:48:01] Oh no.
[00:48:03] But no, I think the way I experienced you telling me about that was like, you were, you were open and curious about yourself.
[00:48:10] Um, you were like digging into the literature around impacts of like losing a parent.
[00:48:18] Um, I don't know if it was specifically to suicide or just in general, losing a parent, um, as, as a boy losing a father.
[00:48:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:48:27] And you showed me on one of our, I don't know, it was probably like our fourth date.
[00:48:31] You showed me a stack of books and that was really what did it.
[00:48:34] I think, I know, I'm not kidding.
[00:48:36] I fell in love with you that night.
[00:48:38] I fell in love with you that night.
[00:48:40] We, we went over to your apartment.
[00:48:42] You got a barbecue.
[00:48:45] Oh.
[00:48:45] We went, yeah.
[00:48:47] Remember we went and got epic barbecue?
[00:48:49] Oh, we went and got barbecue.
[00:48:50] Yes.
[00:48:51] Brought it back to your apartment.
[00:48:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:48:53] You had a Star Wars puzzle for us to work on.
[00:48:56] Yep.
[00:48:57] It was the Mandalorian in honor of our first kiss.
[00:49:00] And you had this massive stack of books out on your kitchen counter.
[00:49:05] And you were like, I want to show you the journey I've been on.
[00:49:11] See books, like, that's how you got me to stick around for our first day.
[00:49:14] That's how you made me fall in love with you.
[00:49:15] Like, books are what's at, Kyle?
[00:49:17] You wasn't the puzzle?
[00:49:18] Well, it helped too.
[00:49:19] So did the barbecue.
[00:49:20] I love barbecue.
[00:49:22] It was just like, you had a lot going for you that night.
[00:49:24] And you were wearing your hat backwards.
[00:49:27] You just.
[00:49:28] That was a rule breaker.
[00:49:29] Oh.
[00:49:30] In all my research of, you know, I, I went down a big rabbit hole.
[00:49:35] Through the divorce of, like, trying to figure out what the fuck to do as an adult male.
[00:49:40] Uh.
[00:49:41] One being how to dress.
[00:49:44] It worked.
[00:49:45] You figured it out.
[00:49:46] Let me tell you.
[00:49:47] You had, like, this, like, ripped up distressed pair of jeans.
[00:49:51] That's also a rule breaker.
[00:49:53] White t-shirt.
[00:49:54] And then you had your hat backwards.
[00:49:55] And you opened the door and I was like.
[00:49:58] Fuck.
[00:49:59] I was gambling on that one.
[00:50:01] Well, it worked out for you.
[00:50:02] And then you put the books on top of that.
[00:50:05] And, and like, I probably would have said yes.
[00:50:08] Had you asked me to marry you right then and there.
[00:50:11] Oh.
[00:50:12] Had a lot going for you.
[00:50:14] Oh.
[00:50:15] But yeah, that was the night I fell in love with you.
[00:50:18] I mean, that was one of the things on my list was personal growth.
[00:50:21] And it didn't have to look like the same, the same way I was doing it.
[00:50:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:27] Um, but that was one of the, the criteria on my list for a partner was someone that was open and willing to explore that kind of stuff and improve themselves.
[00:50:40] Because if you're going to be in a relationship with someone for the rest of your life, I figured it should be somebody that is going to work on themselves, um, on their own.
[00:50:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:53] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:54] And I was doing that and I had an expectation that whoever I was with would do the same.
[00:51:00] Same.
[00:51:00] That worked out really well.
[00:51:02] And I think that's, that's continued to serve us like a full transparency.
[00:51:07] We haven't had the easiest last couple years of marriage with illness and a lot of change and ups and downs and.
[00:51:18] Going through like all the big three stressors at once.
[00:51:21] Oh, no.
[00:51:22] Isn't it the 20?
[00:51:22] We went through like a ton of the top 20 stressors at once.
[00:51:26] Yeah.
[00:51:27] Um, in like our first year of marriage, just for fun.
[00:51:30] No, it's not for fun.
[00:51:32] That was horrible.
[00:51:33] Yes.
[00:51:34] And I think the things that have like saved us and helped us always come back together, um, our, our joint commitment to personal growth are, they're, they're very different.
[00:51:54] Uh, we had very different traumatic experiences growing up, but I think the fact that you have some concept of trauma and I have some concept of trauma since we've both experienced it.
[00:52:04] Like, I think that that's been helpful.
[00:52:07] Like, I think that that's been helpful.
[00:52:08] I mean.
[00:52:08] Like empathy.
[00:52:09] Yeah.
[00:52:09] I mean, I would, I would make a bold statement that like most people have trauma of some sorts.
[00:52:17] Yeah.
[00:52:17] And understanding how to behave around that.
[00:52:22] And how to communicate.
[00:52:22] And that trauma has an impact and causes behaviors that are abnormal or drive emotions.
[00:52:34] Like it's very critical to relationships to understand that like maybe there's some acting out there and it's not personal.
[00:52:43] And I think something that like I've talked about with my therapist is that marriage unlocks, like throw all the shit Bill ever said out of the window.
[00:52:51] He doesn't know what he's talking about.
[00:52:52] My therapist, however, does.
[00:52:53] Um, and she, she said that there's something about how marriage just ups the ante with intimacy and it's like, oh, congratulations.
[00:53:02] New level unlocked.
[00:53:04] Here are all of the things that are stuffed down inside of you that have been too scared to come out.
[00:53:09] They feel safe enough to capo.
[00:53:12] Oh, and, and then you work through that and then like you hit the next level and you just like grow in your abilities to work through those moments together.
[00:53:22] But I think that we've with all the ups and downs, like we've made a safe enough space for each other that that stuff does come up.
[00:53:34] And I feel like being married to you, I've learned so much more about myself, like the good, the bad, the ugly.
[00:53:45] I think it hasn't always like our journey hasn't always followed that like epically romantic path that it started on where it's just like it was straight out of a Hallmark movie.
[00:53:59] Y'all like I'm, I'm serious, but the whole thing was straight out of a Hallmark movie.
[00:54:05] It was beautiful.
[00:54:07] And while our journey hasn't always looked like that, I think that that like the joint commitment to personal growth, the joint understanding that like there are, um, like trauma does have an impact on behaviors as you heal and feel safer.
[00:54:28] Like more of those things come up.
[00:54:29] Like, I think we've just, we've, we're building our shared vocabulary around that.
[00:54:36] And like we said on the one year anniversary of the podcast episode, like having a weekly hobby together where we have to get on microphones and talk to y'all, like makes you sort some shit.
[00:54:50] You can't do this mad.
[00:54:52] So, um, yeah, but I like you.
[00:54:59] I like you too.
[00:55:00] I think that's going to be a fun, you know, 80 more years of you scaring me to death with your hobbies.
[00:55:07] And it's good for you.
[00:55:09] It is good for me.
[00:55:10] It just scares me to death.
[00:55:12] You, you make me adventurous in different ways than I'm used to being.
[00:55:18] And I think I make you, uh, look inside yourself.
[00:55:24] Yep.
[00:55:25] And I mean, that was, that was another thing.
[00:55:30] It was on the list of somebody that would step outside their comfort zone and also push me outside of my comfort zone.
[00:55:39] Uh, I think that's an important quality to have in somebody else to know how to do that properly.
[00:55:44] Yeah.
[00:55:45] Not force you to do something you don't want to do.
[00:55:47] That's different, but kind of push you in the right direction.
[00:55:52] Uh, when you need it.
[00:55:54] I think there's a lot of encouragement in our relationship.
[00:55:57] Like you were gone for a month almost doing, you know, your dirt bike thing.
[00:56:02] And I hope you felt like I was your biggest cheerleader in that.
[00:56:05] Yeah.
[00:56:05] Even though it took you away from me.
[00:56:07] And when I was like, I've got a crazy idea.
[00:56:09] I should get a PhD.
[00:56:10] How do you feel about like stress for the next five years?
[00:56:14] You were like, I believe in you do it.
[00:56:18] And, um, I think, I think another thing,
[00:56:22] and I guess I could talk about this forever, but I'll try to wind down my comments here.
[00:56:27] I think that because I know the pain you've been through and you know, the pain I've been through,
[00:56:35] like, I want you to have a good life so much.
[00:56:39] I want you to be happy.
[00:56:42] And I want you to have all of the adventures and the biggest, best life possible.
[00:56:51] And I want to be part of that storyline for you.
[00:56:53] And I feel like you do the exact same thing for me.
[00:56:59] And I'll cry again now.
[00:57:00] So you talk.
[00:57:02] No, I mean, same.
[00:57:03] Like I, it, I know you shouldn't like derive happiness from your partner, but it,
[00:57:12] I think there's something different about supporting someone to see their dreams and achieve their goals.
[00:57:24] That is very fulfilling as a person.
[00:57:27] And, uh, so like, I mean, that's, that's where I come from on that.
[00:57:32] Like, it just, I, I get a lot of pleasure and fulfillment out of supporting you through all the things little Amanda wanted that she wasn't allowed to have.
[00:57:47] I really appreciate that.
[00:57:51] I think, I think we should tell the people one last thing.
[00:57:56] Uh oh.
[00:57:56] So we were like in forced abstinence this whole time that you were away.
[00:58:01] Did you build an empire, Kyle?
[00:58:03] No.
[00:58:05] Build an empire.
[00:58:08] We've already broken Bill's rules since you got home.
[00:58:12] So like, I guess the moral of this whole story is everything Bill said about marriage, throw it out the window.
[00:58:19] We are not marriage experts, obviously.
[00:58:22] But I think we're doing it better than Bill said.
[00:58:25] So yes.
[00:58:29] All right.
[00:58:29] Well, that is the story about how Amanda and I met.
[00:58:32] I hope you guys enjoyed that and find some value in there.
[00:58:36] And we'll be back on Monday.
[00:58:39] Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind.
[00:58:42] Until next time.
[00:58:44] Don't join a cult.
[00:58:45] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like share and subscribe.
[00:58:49] And we will catch you on the next episode.