56 - In Which Amanda Tries to Convince Kyle to Try Bill's Abstinence Program for Science

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: IBLP cult which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I am Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Alright, welcome back to the next episode of What Do You Have For Us Today Amanda?

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We are finally, finally going to close out the six purposes of marriage.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it's about time.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I do have to say this has not been my favorite one to go through.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just confusing like a lot of the stuff that's in there just like this doesn't make

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_03]: any sense.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: No it doesn't which is why it's important to show people.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Bill Gother does not make any sense.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do a couple fun things today.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to have a quiz, Kyle.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh great.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But also before that, Mikayla, the listener whose question we answered I think last week

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: about Bright Lights, she sent a follow-up message and said that the story we shared

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a couple weeks ago about the lost pearl from fruitfulness.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, fruitfulness about having kids.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: She remembers attending a Bright Lights conference and being told that the boy in the lost pearl

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: story was Harold Malley, Sarah's father.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And she also said that when she was digging through the website for Bright Lights a while

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: ago she found a section where you can apply to be a leader of a Bright Lights group

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with, get this, your husband's permission, your father's permission and your pastor's permission.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And they require the husband, the father and the pastor's contact information so they can

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: check that you got their permission.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you feel so compelled to be part of the Bright Lights ministry just first of

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: all make sure you have a husband.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you have a father and a pastor because you're going to need their permission and their

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: phone numbers.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you have to have authority.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Be under authority at all times, ladies, or you can do nothing.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Imagine that's not widely publicized on there.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it is.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It should be a red flag either way.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I mean even when I was saying about how like Sarah's the main thing and her

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: parents had to come first and then her husband had to come before her.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it looks like she has two adopted siblings, I think that's or at least one of

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: them's adopted.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And they wrote a book together but her siblings, there's at least I don't know if this has

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: been updated but her brother doesn't look like he's married or at least doesn't

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: have a wife in a picture.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And then her sister is listed with her husband but after her husband.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though she's written books or a book for the ministry, she is still lesser and in

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: submission to her husband just like Sarah and they're all under their parents.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And like Michaela said in her message, crazy that this level of control and oppression seemed

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so normal for so long.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Because younger me wouldn't even have blinked at that.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah, of course she's under authority to list the parents first.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course she put the husband before her even though she's like the main person.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: She's number four on the list.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean it's not surprising.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess when you get into these kind of radical religious groups or organizations.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was looking back, looking ahead we recently recorded an episode with a guest and

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that will be coming out soon but Kyle you had an interesting observation after we got off

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the recording session for that episode because the individual we interviewed also grew up

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: as a musician like singing opera and stuff which was a point of connection.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And Kyle you were like, what was your question?

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I said that in talking with these other people specifically women that are in these high

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: control religious environments, y'all seem to all be opera singers or singers of some

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: sort.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Or musicians in general.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was curious like, is that to be expected?

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that a normal thing that women in these environments are going to be musically inclined or singers?

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And then without really even thinking I was like well it's just the women we all have

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to make a joyful noise under the Lord.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like oh geez.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean it was harmless up to that point where it was just like oh it's good you're singing

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: awesome.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good skill to have and then Bill Gothard came out of you must make a joyful noise

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: unto the Lord.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say oh no.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why we suffered through so many people who couldn't play violin you know screeching

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: their way through hymns.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That was just very normal.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: For some reason the violin was like the most holy instrument.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd think harp because like the Bible talks about angels and harps and stuff I think.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know did we just make that up as humans?

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like harps were definitely.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh David!

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone played the harp for David.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what it was and it would like was it David?

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: David played the harp and then someone else some other king of Israel would have the harp

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: played to like quell their demons or something.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So the harp was like the most holy but I don't I only knew a couple people growing up who

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: played harp but violin was like where it was at.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: If you play the violin you're on a path of righteousness.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: After that would be piano.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like there's no way that like that is specifically laid out in the Bible.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: This instrument is more holy than that one.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Well also like the types of instruments that had been invented in biblical times are so

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: wildly different.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying that like it seems like something Bill just twisted into like

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: there's a hierarchy of more holy instruments than others.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh did I ever tell you what Rick would say about electric guitars?

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think there were outlets in heaven for them to plug their electric guitars into?

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You know I feel like I've heard that one before.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Have I told you that one before?

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: No like I feel like I've actually heard that one in church before that like electric

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: guitars are a little you know I've heard that excuse before I think.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So being me and just being the child I was I would just fire back well do you think

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there are pipe organs in heaven?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think that went over?

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Not real great.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But okay now we're going to do a pop quiz.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: All ready?

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: For you for you so as we come to number six here in the purposes of marriage and the

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: six purposes of marriage the last one is illustration which we will get into

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: when it gets real weird or at least like unrelated but anyways the last five

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: purposes of marriage do you remember like any of them?

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay how about we do this?

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Protection was one.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes it was but if we go back to the beginning it was companionship like how

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: could you sum up companionship according to Bill?

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is actually very easy quiz if you think about it.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very easy quiz except I have terrible memory.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What is Bill care about most with marriage?

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Abstinence and babies.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: No I mean yes but what does he talk about the most?

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The menstrual cycle.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There we go so companionship is actually about abstinence as it turns out how

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: about pleasure what's that one about?

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Abstinence.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And the menstrual cycle.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly what about completeness?

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Abstinence.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me look was abstinence was completeness more about I feel like that

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: one might have been about the menstrual cycle.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This is bad these are things that we talked about in the last couple

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: of weeks and I already can't remember all of them.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh oh oh it was spiritual power and oneness and abstinence.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah completeness is actually about abstinence.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay how about fruitfulness?

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Clearly abstinence.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly how about protection?

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Protection can only be obtained through abstinence.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The seed.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The seed.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: The godly seed.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't waste the seed though.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically marriage is about abstinence according to Bill if we made this like the

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: mode is abstinence.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Mean median mode mode abstinence.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So the sixth marriage purpose is illustration.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So marriage is a human object lesson of several basic divine relationships.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: God's relationship with Israel.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: God's redemption of mankind.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Christ's relationship to the church and the believer's relationship to the law.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: See rebuilders guide pages 39 to 45.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm afraid to ask what the hell the rebuilders guide is like the marriage manual I think.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Why?

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey we're going to have a manual about marriage but we're already starting off with rebuilding it.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: A married couple has a unique opportunity and responsibility to be a living epistle of God's truth

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: by demonstrating these relationships in their marriage.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: On the other hand when a couple does not build their marriage around the principles of scripture

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and maintain the harmony that God planned they do damage to the basic teachings of scripture

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and cause others to be led astray.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You can damage scripture guys with your actions when they're unholy.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like taking a knife and driving it into the Bible.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first prince.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You say that and I think of the Harry Potter with a stab from Diary with the Basilisk Fang.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Killing the Bible.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right guys every time you don't do what Bill says you're stabbing the Bible with a basilisk Fang.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Extra heinous because it's witchcraft from Harry Potter so you're really taking the Bible out.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: The first principle of illustration is self-denial.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So a clear witness for Christ requires self-denial or self-sacrifice.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It is for this reason that Christ gave the call he did to his disciples to deny themselves,

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: take up their cross and follow him.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But what is God's hidden design?

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh jeez.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What is Bill's plan for illustration?

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: The key is wife's submission to the husband's sacrifice.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That's all we got.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What is the husband's sacrificing?

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: His abstinence?

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what the hell does that have to do with illustration?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well again none of this makes sense.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But how does Satan attack God's marriage illustration Kyle?

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: What is Satan's goal?

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the breakdown marriage and filtration.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Equal authority.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Between the man and woman.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Satan's ungodly goal.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah of course it is.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the key remember to illustration is the wife's submission to the husband.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And Satan doesn't want that.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Satan wants them to have autonomy in marriage.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to attack the umbrella authority?

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: How is the husband to illustrate Christ?

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The husband is to lay down his life for the wife.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Which as far as we know just means practicing abstinence.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that what it means?

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_03]: When I hear that I feel like that's more like literal protection.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Physical protection.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: None of the verses that they list really make any sense at all.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to discern what exactly he means.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because looking at that and people can't see this but they're literally one sentence descriptions or clarifications on the topics.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You have an idea, you get one sentence to make that point and then it's on to the next thing.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: There's not enough context there to actually tell what the hell he is talking about.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the point though.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It is.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's his control or one of the ways in which he does control.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: He just makes an absurd statement and it's hard to catch him in a lie or prove that he's being malicious when it's just that statement.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't tell what the hell is driving it or justification for it.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_03]: It just is there and exists.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they'll be crazy.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was not prepared for this.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Why must the wife submit to her husband?

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think Kyle?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The wife is to submit to the husband in order to not blaspheme God's word.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The Bible is in like real jeopardy in this purpose of marriage.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: The Bible is like getting destroyed man.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Well Bill is trying to protect the Bible on this.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah but women are the problem obviously they're just out there ripping up the Bible, killing scripture.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they aren't under authority sufficiently.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not oppressed enough.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: How do parents illustrate Christ's love?

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And parents are to lay down their lives for the children.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we just go right into how to discover the true significance of wedding traditions.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: What wedding traditions?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Well we're going to look only at the Jewish wedding.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like everything else in life.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: A wedding ceremony that is not directly related to the Lord Jesus Christ loses its real significance.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's hilarious that we're about to use the Jewish wedding to talk about how it's directly related to the Lord Jesus Christ since Jesus is not part of the Jewish faith.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But Bill doesn't care.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: He must have missed that class in his PhD while he was sleeping.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The tradition of a Christian wedding grows out of God's covenant relationship with Israel and Christ's relationship with the believer.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Further insights on wedding traditions are gained from the Jewish wedding ceremonies in the day of Christ.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The correctness of interpretation can be confirmed because God also uses the Jewish wedding to illustrate redemption in Christ's relationship with the church.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that just builds way of saying I'm right.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't question me.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So the Jewish wedding, all of these have an aspect of the wedding and then relationship to salvation.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, drawn from a religion that doesn't have Jesus as part of it.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean why would we do anything logical?

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So part one, the prospective bridegroom took the initiative and traveled to the Father's house to the home of the prospective bride.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And how that relates to salvation is Christ left his father's house and came to earth to gain a bride for himself.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So he had to go to the bride's father to gain a bride.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That tells you a lot.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I mean that's just how women have been treated since forever.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But the Jewish wedding number two, the father of the woman that negotiated with the bridegroom the price that must be paid to secure his bride.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And how that relates to salvation is Christ had to pay the price with his own blood.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Then the third way it relates the Jewish wedding when the bridegroom paid the purchase price, you know, because he's buying a woman.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The marriage covenant was thereby established at that point.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife even though no physical union had taken place how this relates to salvation.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The believer has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Is this the part where I tell the story about how once upon a time I was asked to do music for a wedding ceremony to Jesus?

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You can.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I declined on theological.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_03]: That is a very ground.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not even cult related.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: No, but it's just very weird, real religious.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It was Protestant women of the chapel in the Air Force.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: There's like the larger organization and then like each base has a smaller like, yeah, the local chapter.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And the local chapter one of the places where I lived reached out to me to do music for their retreat.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They're Protestant women of the chapel retreat and they were so excited.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, and then on the last day or whenever it was, I think it was last day, we're going to have a wedding ceremony to Jesus.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've told all of the women to wear white and fancy dresses.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you'll do like wedding music while we have a wedding ceremony to Christ.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, actually, I don't agree with that.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This is still, I was still Christian at the time.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I just, I think you're misinterpreting scripture because I've always had that problem where I'm like, excuse me, but you're misinterpreting scripture.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like never gone over well with anyone ever.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And they got very snippy with me and uninvited me from doing music and hung up.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, I'm all right with that.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, yes, we are or or believers are sanctified and set apart exclusively for Christ.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There is purity culture in your relationship with Christ as well.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Then the Jewish wedding number four, the moment the covenant was established, the bride was declared to be set apart exclusively for the bridegroom.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The groom and bride then drank from a cup over which the betrothal benediction had been pronounced.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And this symbolized that the covenant relationship had been established.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: How this relates to salvation Christ symbolizes marriage covenant through communion at the Last Supper.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And then number five, after the marriage covenant was in effect, the groom left the home of the bride and returned to his father's house.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: He remained there for a period of 12 months separated from his bride.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: How this relates to salvation Christ returned to his father's house following the payment of his purchase price.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Your face.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on?

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Old school shit.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, this is the time of Christ.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to go ask the bride's father for the bride.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Pay for her.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You're buying her.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you're going to disappear for a year.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But she's married to you.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a great way to start a marriage.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It is according to Bill.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm confident there were people who did show like this and conservative Christian cult type settings.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Might even have happened in IBLP.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't think of anyone I know personally at the top of my head, but that just sounds like something a cult dad would think was a great idea.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I feel like there's always somebody that is going to take something super literal and be like this story portrays this thing really well.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's do that.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, more specifically, let's make my child do that.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: My daughter.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then during the period of separation, the bride gathered her wardrobe and prepared for married life and the groom prepared living accommodations in his father's house for his bride.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: This is again, like to be the most holy of grooms you go build a house.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: After getting financial independence.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it said prepare the house in his father's house.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So now they're both living with the father, but in the earlier cultural.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but like in the IBLP stuff, you were supposed to like the man was supposed to go off and like prepare a house.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Everything before marriage.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is contradictory to that because now they're moving in with the groom's dead.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think built a culture and kind like cultural context into account when he was.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's not that.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are two different ideas.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's on like actual cultural norms and then bills is based on whatever the fuck he wants.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's confusing.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It is it is.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But how how this whole like preparation thing, oh, I know where he's going with this.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: God prepare a place for you.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: How this relates to salvation crisis preparing a place for his bride and is also sending pastors and teachers to perfect the bride for the coming wedding.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That's creepy.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But like collectively Christians are the bride, which I wonder I wonder how that like went over with men.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you are the bride.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You are only a heterosexual male, but you are also the bride.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I wonder how that worked or if they just didn't think about it after this period of separation, the groom, the best man and other males as left the house of the groom's father.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Usually at night and conducted a torchlight procession to the house of the bride.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And how that relates to Christ and salvation.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Christ will soon come from his father's house in heaven accompanied by an angelic host.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And then in the Jewish wedding, the bride was expecting her groom to come for her.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: However, she did not know the exact time.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Thus the groom's arrival was preceded by a shout.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: How this relates to salvation.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Christ's return will be preceded by a shout.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We expect his return, but we do not know the day or the hour.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Number nine.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: In the Jewish wedding, the groom received the bride with her female attendants and returned to his father's house.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: How this relates to salvation.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The bride will be caught up with the Lord to be with him.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then number 10 in the Jewish wedding, the bride and groom then entered the bridal chamber and in the privacy of that place entered into physical unity.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Christ's union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: If he says we're going to have sex with Jesus, I'm going to run out of here screaming.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Relationship to salvation.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Christ's union with the church will take place in heaven for all eternity.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't sound much better.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But okay, so that is it.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That is the whole illustration.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That is the sixth purpose of marriage complete.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounded more like a lesson in Jewish traditions than I don't understand.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yes, but Jewish traditions related to an aspect of a different faith belief that the Jewish faith does not recognize.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just interesting and a little uncomfortable.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I don't know.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's just illustrating our relationship to salvation if we follow ancient Jewish cultural customs for marriage.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of these are just so hard for me where I'm just like, I can't follow what the hell he's actually trying to do or what he's trying to say.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just so vague and short.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I get lost trying to think about it like, well, I don't even know what to do with this.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think the big takeaway from this series on the purposes of marriage is that if you're married, you're probably doing it wrong.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Or you started it wrong.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Or you started it wrong.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So to have a good marriage recording to bill, you need to be heterosexual.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You need to have never touched prior to being pronounced man and wife.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Then you need to abstain a lot and you need to honor the menstrual cycle like a lot.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I really think that's about it.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You got to have periods of abstinence to maintain your spiritual belief in your relationship with God.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the key to clarity, Amanda.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Abstinence.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been wondering, thinking back to my childhood and walking around the cult compound and the cult seminars and the Knoxville annual gathering,

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the conference, I just wonder were any of those folks getting late?

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously they were because there were so many children.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But were they all following this shit?

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Were they miserable?

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that why there was so much abuse in the cult?

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Was everyone just angry and horny?

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_03]: They're probably very sexually distressed.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I have to share something.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously they were very sexually repressed.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's that too.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to share something because I'm still in some ways coming out of certain aspects of the cult and that is just so ingrained that I didn't even realize it was still there.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was in class the other day and someone said something about how human sexuality, and I know this, I do.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But she said something about how sexuality was the most important aspect of humanity or being a human.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Your sexuality is so tied to everything and I was like, wait what?

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to sit and think about it for a minute because we were supposed to die to the flesh and sexuality and all of that was part of the flesh and it had to die, dead, done, gone.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously I don't live like that and I don't think that but it's still when I hear it, I'm like, is this okay?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Is the floor about to open and the fire's beneath us and we're all just going to fall into it.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Just you Amanda.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Just me.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's so funny how even though I didn't sit in the seminars and hear this shit about abstinence

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was unwed and we could not speak of such things to the unwed.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But still how much it infiltrated me and my worldview and even the belief system and structure I'm not consciously aware of until someone says something and it jars me and I have to go like, oh yeah, I actually agree with that but also

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that's like against everything that I was taught growing up.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it's just it's so weird to like find those little pockets.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's this is one of, I don't know if there's more stuff like this but you know, you've done a lot of work to deconstruct the things you were taught and this is one of the few things that like you weren't exposed to directly and weren't

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_03]: like that was another layer of crazy ideology that you didn't have to unpack.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's still there.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's still there in some aspects but there's also other people out there that like went all the way through this whole process and

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I was part of purity culture up to marriage but I was on my way out of the cult by the time like all the marriage stuff would have applied to me and I would have had access to it.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would have had access to that material in the cult.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're right, like I've actively deconstructed and dealt with all this stuff that was explicitly presented to me.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's all this stuff that like I didn't know I knew which is yeah.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean this is this is another layer in which Bill would have got his little controlling fingers around some people, women specifically and like that's another layer in which he like oppresses them.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And it feel like this is a pretty big one like if you get to the point where you're controlling and setting the standards and boundaries in which a couple's in a marriage like that's a that's a whole other level of control.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like the amount of emphasis on the menstrual cycle to like the whole thing about like the menstrual cycle and then like you must abstain.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Seven days after.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Whatever take event takes place, but also have a bunch of kids but also be abstinent.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just like I feel like he had to have some cheat sheet for this.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like these are the appropriate times have sex you must have sex and like having it was laid out and impregnate a woman and then there's this period of abstinence and then you try again.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, yeah, we've talked about all of that but in my head I'm trying to like well there's there might have been a chart somewhere else but I guess I guess one of the other things that occurs to me is it's a great way to set people up to fail.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if you're supposed to be abstinent for two weeks straight, but let's say you're lucky enough in the cult that you love and are attracted to your partner.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And you want to have sex with them and then you like morally fail because you had sex on day three after the menstrual after the period or the bleed portion and then like.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Or after the birth of a kid.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then and then you just failed.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You just failed because you didn't abstain for seven days.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Regimenting in specific like there's a million rules there and it's like you must wait this much time after this event and that much time after that event.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And then if your spiritual life is not right, then you must abstain again.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And like there's just so many rules that somebody could very easily get lost in that.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I'm trying to like map that on my head.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and you can't have sex more than once a day.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, Jesus.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: There is that too.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I forgot about that part.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But what if you did like what if you were having a great day and you woke up and had sex and then you had sex again later like then you failed again.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I wonder if that drove a lot of the shame and angst that I witnessed in adults.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I think angst is a good word there.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I feel like that would cause a lot of unnecessary tension in the relationship where you're like you have a good feeling and emotion.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm connected to this person and I want to do it.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you're like have all this shame that's following that up of like I can't because this weird ass rule bill has.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Should we follow this for a month and just like as a science experiment and report back to listen to this?

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a horrible idea.

[00:34:24] I agree.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But what do you think?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I would be so confused and lost and I'd spend so much time trying to like map this out like.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You can excel spreadsheet.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You would have to you would have to like write down the 9000 rules in here about when you can and where someone else take one for the team.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And then like journal then come on the podcast and we'll interview you about your experience.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like a recipe for sadness.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess if I think about it like that would be one hell of an experiment.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to do it?

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't have space for that in my life right now.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I think it would be interesting from a scientific standpoint to see the effects of that but that would be a serious commitment because I feel like that would mess with your mental health and a lot of your emotions.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You know like the scientists me you're talking me into doing this because we can journal the living daylights out of this like all the symptoms.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We could track our relationship health.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We could track like our feelings.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I can make so many spreadsheets.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You have no idea.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You I don't want to abstain but also this is a crazy experiment that would be very interesting to try and then report back.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe in the future when we plan for it.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We just have like a ton of sex getting ready for this and try those.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So the withdrawals are real?

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: All right you guys vote do you want us to do?

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No I'm not leaving this up to other people.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I would have to seriously prepare for that.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be another really interesting experiment like have everyone vote and just see if people are like yes we want to see if the cult shit works or people are like please no we love you.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't hurt yourselves in the same way.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know what to do with it.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But Kyle you could have so much creative energy if I didn't have sex with you for two weeks every month.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I might try that for like a week just to see like how.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not good enough.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be two.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not ready for that type of thing.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: What about my creative energy?

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: What happens to me?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they don't again the women are just completely left out of the dialogue around this but like what am I supposed to get out of this other than a release from the drudgery.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh is that what it is?

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what he called it.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay well we'll leave that one out there maybe in a future time.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I would just really like to debunk Bill.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that hard.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that hard.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: There's other ways of doing it.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: With like a nicely organized experiment.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it would need to be way more than just us but yeah.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's not start a trend for this.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a bad idea.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You have my research brain going though.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Partaking into this weird ass ritual started by.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Well actually the research is already been done.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We just need to find enough couples who did this properly under Bill's reign of terror.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe that's the better question has anybody.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay fine.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Went through this class and followed it for a period of time.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes and then can you please come on the podcast and talk about your sex life with strangers on the internet.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We're really nice though we promise and then we can like talk through how this you know rolled out in reality instead of what Bill thinks.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to think smarter not harder.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do secondary data analysis instead of primary data collection.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're doing Kyle.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_03]: If you went through this program and.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Abstained for absolutely no reason because you know Bill told you to first of all we're sorry.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your service toward our experiment and please tell us about it and just in general go have great consensual sex everyone and have a really great week.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_03]: All right well that wraps up this week's episode and we'll be back next Monday.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Until next time don't join a cult.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03]: If you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode.