48 - A State Prosecutor's Perspective on Amanda's Case

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult,

[00:00:13] with you might know from the Dougher family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:24] All right, welcome back to the next episode. What do you have for us today, Amanda?

[00:00:35] Well, it's not just me today. We have an incredibly special guest on the show today. Her name is Jennifer.

[00:00:42] She is an assistant district attorney in the state of Alabama and she is one of our listeners.

[00:00:49] We actually met through the podcast. So Jennifer, we're so excited to have you on the show.

[00:00:54] Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to do this.

[00:00:58] Would you mind just introducing yourself a little bit and telling the listeners a bit about yourself and what you do?

[00:01:04] Sure. Thank you so much for let me be a part of this. I love you guys. I live listening to your podcast. I love the education you're putting out there.

[00:01:12] But I work for the district attorney's office. I'm a state prosecutor here in the state of Alabama.

[00:01:19] And what we do is we prosecute criminal cases, my area that I prosecute is all felonies for the most part. So the big cases and we are general prosecutors which means we prosecute everything from

[00:01:33] property crimes to homicides to sexual assaults. Okay, and the area that I've obtained the most training in is sexual assaults

[00:01:42] And then includes child crimes, child sexual assaults, child abuse cases. So when I was listening to your episodes about going through court, that struck a huge core with me about how you were treated.

[00:01:56] Well, I really appreciated the message you sent it was so validating.

[00:02:00] That was a really hard time in my life and how that case concluded everything all of the politics that took a lot of work in therapy to work through.

[00:02:12] So hearing from someone who does what you do and has the experience you have meant the world to me.

[00:02:19] And that's how we connected. I think you sent a message and then there was like, hi, you're my new best friend. It's official.

[00:02:26] And then we got the three of us got on our call. What was that like a month ago and we spent two hours. I think we laughed. We cried.

[00:02:34] We solved it was everything the work you're doing is just amazing. I can't wait to talk about it more.

[00:02:40] But I was wondering if first you could kind of share from your perspective. What you thought listening to that episode and if there were any parts of it that really stuck out to you as like, wow, that's weird. That's different because had my case been prosecuted in the state of Alabama.

[00:02:59] I would have been working with someone like you correct? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:04] So what kind of stuck out to you? What was weird or right or wrong about it?

[00:03:09] Okay. So each and this is one of my just lemurs. Each states laws are different. Yes. So I'm not well versed on other states laws. I know the laws in the state of Alabama.

[00:03:21] However, and I don't know if I say this but you got screwed over.

[00:03:26] That was the beginning.

[00:03:28] The biggest takeaway I had from all that is so the first rule of dealing with any and here's my second disclaimer I wanted to get in.

[00:03:36] I'm going to use interchangeable words because they are interchangeable in our world. I prefer the word survivor when I'm in court and when I'm dealing with a court case, I refer to a survivor as a victim.

[00:03:49] I do this. I have to do that. I hate to. I'm not even hate to use that word with my victim because I feel like I'm taking some of their power away.

[00:04:01] But legally speaking, they have to be classified as a victim to be have had standing to bring the case to be a part of the case.

[00:04:09] So if I use the word victim, I'm not using it in a derogatory way. I'm not meaning that they are somebody who was there somebody who was victimized.

[00:04:18] And I use that word a lot. But we are a very victim-centric profession as prosecutors and you don't do anything if you can help it.

[00:04:28] One is going to do more damage to a victim, especially a child victim, especially an adult victim who was a child victim.

[00:04:37] And you don't make any decisions based on a case without confirming what you're going to do with your victim, which means candid and hard discussions sometimes.

[00:04:46] But you still have those discussions. You lay out the possibilities. If you feel like the case isn't viable or there's going to be a loss, I've had those discussions with a victim.

[00:04:56] And I will say to them, okay, I think we're going to go into court and I think we're going to be unsuccessful.

[00:05:02] Here's what I think is going to happen or here's what the tactic is I'd like to try.

[00:05:06] I'm willing to do that if you're willing to do that with me. If you're willing to take the chance of a loss to have your day in court, let's do that.

[00:05:15] If you want to go safe, here's a plea offer we can make. Here's a plea bargain we can make with the defendant. Here's something we can do to get some sort of accountability on that person.

[00:05:26] But that's the decision of the victim. That's the decision of the survivor. That is not the decision of the prosecutor in my opinion because the whole thing you do then is you take away the survivors power.

[00:05:38] I wouldn't go into trial. I would have said, yeah, I'll risk it all. Well, I don't understand why they wouldn't have gone to.

[00:05:47] I keep going back to the comments. I think it was your sister made to the investigator.

[00:05:54] I mean, yeah, I did it. But he apologized.

[00:05:58] Yeah. That first of all, okay, that's a confession. That's a question. You're party, but then you bring her butt to court and you put her on the witness stand and you make her say that.

[00:06:09] And if you don't make her say that, you remind her she said that. You impeach her to prove that everybody's covering for him.

[00:06:16] And the other side of which you have brought up over and over again is he has kids. He has a victim pool living in his house.

[00:06:24] And as a prosecutor not only do we see justice and accountability for our survivors, but we think about our community and the people that are potential victims down the line.

[00:06:35] So his children were actually used as a way to get him out of being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law because they were like, oh, he means he's a father.

[00:06:45] He needs to be home with his kids. He like we can't take this man away from his children.

[00:06:51] I call that the penis argument because he's a penis and he's the breadwinner, the family and he's the care giver of the family. We can't take him away.

[00:07:01] I see that all the time, I hear that all the time. Well he's the breadwinner. I'm sorry.

[00:07:07] I'm sorry. That doesn't undo one what he did and to the potential for what he is going to do.

[00:07:13] And if he's got children in his home, they are very potentially going to be groomed as victims. I know.

[00:07:19] I'm in a, you know that. I know. I think he voiced that you're concerned for that.

[00:07:25] And there were times like that case dragged on for obviously four years and there were so many times it was overwhelmingly difficult for me.

[00:07:34] And the reason I kept going was his child and then I found out he'd had another one.

[00:07:39] I don't know how many has now but he had two during the four years that that case was in the legal system.

[00:07:47] And yeah, there were days when I almost called the prosecutor and said I'm out and then stayed in because of the child and then children. I knew he had.

[00:07:58] Yeah, and the other scary thing is those children he has are going to have friends.

[00:08:03] Yeah, there's that and cousins. Yes, lots of cousins so so many.

[00:08:10] And then he has his sleepovers and so then you're going to have these people who don't know his history.

[00:08:15] People in the community who don't know when they let their daughter go sleep over at his house, the nice church family.

[00:08:23] Yeah, oh yeah, he's a good guy. He goes to church with us.

[00:08:26] He's put himself in a position to be a upstanding citizen and does he have to register?

[00:08:34] No, no. He didn't even plead to a sex crime. His plea deal was misdemeanor battery standard probation.

[00:08:40] No, that's not.

[00:08:42] Jennifer's doing the basic thing Kyle does.

[00:08:45] I'm the faith interpreter on this podcast.

[00:08:48] I just it blows my mind and and I do for an extent feel slightly sorry for the young lady who is the actual prosecutor assigned to your case.

[00:08:59] Just because I think she got caught in the middle of a political it was war.

[00:09:04] Yeah, and I and I kind of been there a little bit. I feel for her. I feel like she probably did for you what she could and got shot down.

[00:09:13] Yeah, and that was the nasty part for me as the victim.

[00:09:17] I knew that her job was on the line that she was pushing as hard as she could without getting fired.

[00:09:23] So then my protective instincts kicked in and I was like, well we can't let her get fired.

[00:09:28] So then I was I was backed into a corner of like this isn't right. This isn't what I want to do.

[00:09:32] I don't agree with this. I want to fight this. But if she fought it anymore, she was getting fired.

[00:09:36] So then I backed off or I felt like I had to back off to protect her career and it was just nasty all the way around.

[00:09:43] Yeah, the the prosecutor for the district attorney, the elected official got in bed with somebody and made that decision behind every

[00:09:52] body's back. And that happens sadly more than we think where we will not not not my jurisdiction.

[00:09:59] I'm not I'm not speaking about my world, my world that does not happen. It's rare.

[00:10:03] My boss is a wonderful human being who will not allow that to happen.

[00:10:07] If the attorneys try to end run around us to them because they don't like our answers, they get shut down.

[00:10:13] They get shut down and set up.

[00:10:15] I'm so thankful that I work for the man that I work for because they will do that.

[00:10:21] These older attorneys who've been a part of the system forever will call him and say, well she won't give me what I want.

[00:10:29] He's like there's a reason and if you have a question, even problem go to her or we can all sit down and have a meeting.

[00:10:34] But I'm not going to change what she said.

[00:10:37] So he has our back on that which means we do what our victims and our investigators have asked us to do,

[00:10:43] which is so powerful. I appreciate it every time I come against it that I get to make those decisions based on what my victim wants, my survivor works.

[00:10:53] That's how it should be.

[00:10:55] And of course by the way, the four out, the four years they drug everything out, that's exactly what a defense attorney does.

[00:11:03] Is drag out the case as long as possible for a couple different reasons.

[00:11:07] First is that they're hoping you're going to get fed up and give up.

[00:11:12] And like you said there are days it was just so overwhelming that you I just want to be done.

[00:11:16] I don't know if they didn't know who the fuck they were dealing with. So thank God.

[00:11:20] I didn't work out for them. That's right.

[00:11:22] And the other thing is they're hoping witnesses will follow way.

[00:11:26] You know, sadly people pass away in the middle of these and we will lose our ability to litigate a case because we've lost a crucial witness or the victim

[00:11:36] to sickness or moving out of the jurisdiction and being unable to come back for whatever reason.

[00:11:42] Move down with their lives and they don't want to come back. And if it's somebody who's super important and they've moved far away, we can't compel them to come back.

[00:11:52] Here, if you're in our jurisdiction and you don't want to participate in prosecution, but you're a vital witness.

[00:12:00] And I can put a subpoena in your hand. I can make you come to court. I can have you arrested and brought into court and make you testify if it's needed.

[00:12:10] But if you have moved outside of our state or our area, there's a range. We have we haven't actually a mile radius range.

[00:12:18] If you moved out of that area, I have no power to drag you back to court.

[00:12:24] And that's what they're counting on. They're counting on all those things, investigators getting fired or moved onto other jobs and then the case starts to fall apart.

[00:12:32] The longer they wait, the better it is for them. And the harder it is for the survivor to get everybody rallied up to be there in court.

[00:12:42] That makes sense. Some dirty tricks to use.

[00:12:46] Yep, it's exactly what it is.

[00:12:48] So can I ask one more question about dirty tricks then before we get into the rest of this?

[00:12:52] I just realized something.

[00:12:54] Did they even want my mental health records or did they just think that that was going to push me over the edge and make me walk away?

[00:13:00] Both.

[00:13:02] Both. They're they're being bullied.

[00:13:04] Yes, yeah. And that's a conversation. I as your assigned district attorney would have had with you, which is okay, don't don't worry about this.

[00:13:13] Yeah, they want your mental health right when they're trying to they're trying to bully you.

[00:13:16] They're hoping that you'll be so scared of them finding stuff out about you that you will back down.

[00:13:22] And then they're going to dig through it. They're going to have probably a law clerk or a intern or some lacking in their office.

[00:13:30] Dig through these files to see if they can find anything that they can try to twist and use against you.

[00:13:36] I had a young lady who was sexually assaulted by her stepfather and then attempted to take her own life.

[00:13:44] And she was treated for that and they wanted her mental health records.

[00:13:49] And well, her treat and a facility and they got those records and they said, well, it proves she was hallucinating.

[00:13:56] Oh, my, okay, sure. Okay.

[00:14:00] Okay, she was hallucinating after this happened.

[00:14:04] See everything you're bringing up now is after the fact it does not negate what that defendant did to her.

[00:14:10] It absolutely does not so please. Please let me show the harm that has been done to this child.

[00:14:15] Please bring all of that into court, bring somebody testify about it. That's fine. I welcome it.

[00:14:21] And that's the conversation we had about the fact that they were looking at her records.

[00:14:25] It didn't change our position and we don't care because it does not undo what happened beforehand.

[00:14:31] Now, of course, but they were trying to do is part of that into she hallucinated the events.

[00:14:36] Of course, right. But it was multiple events with multiple witnesses over a period of time that was not a hallucination.

[00:14:44] You're just trying to muddy the waters, which is what they like how said it's a dirty trick and it's all the defense has sometimes to try to undo

[00:14:54] The beyond a reasonable doubt we're able to prove.

[00:14:59] So earlier you said you kind of just did general, you know any kind of felony. How did you get into working sexual assault cases?

[00:15:11] Well, they get assigned to us. They get assigned to us. I was an M still assigned to a specific judge and whatever that judge has assigned to him is cases for prosecution or from the state.

[00:15:26] We pick up. What ended up also happening is we have this fantastic organization called the Child Advocacy Center here.

[00:15:36] And I got set up there to a meeting. They were doing an interview on a victim and they asked for one of us one of the prosecutors to be there.

[00:15:46] And they sent me up there. So I go up there and I walk in the door and they bring me into this room and they have me sign this confidentiality form.

[00:15:55] And at the top it says, multi disciplinary team member confidentiality form and waiver.

[00:16:02] And I said, oh, this isn't, this isn't for me. I'm not on this team. I don't know what this is. No, no, you're on the team.

[00:16:09] And I said, what team? And I said, is it a multi disciplinary team all disciplines involved in the care protection and prosecution of cases involving children are on the team. And I was like, oh, oh, that's me. Okay, yeah, someone to team. Okay, got it.

[00:16:24] And I would sit. I said on this interview and I realized how the process works.

[00:16:29] And then I sought out additional training. I asked for more training and I've been very, very lucky. I got to go to Dallas twice to the annual and national well international crimes against children training for a week where everybody from all over the world comes and listens to the groundbreaking ways and the new things we're doing.

[00:16:51] And case studies on how we're dealing with these crimes against children and it's just become something we've all started to work more on because these cases are overwhelming.

[00:17:03] And they're coming in in droves and dealing with children and sexual assault cases is just so different than anything else.

[00:17:11] It's really hard to get worked up over somebody who's trash can got stolen, but it's really easy to get passionate and worked up about somebody who has violated a child.

[00:17:21] So we just kind of kept seeking out the training and getting better and better at it and working together on my whole office works on these cases every single person from the district attorney all the way down to our victim service officer we are involved.

[00:17:35] And then when we were talking before when we talked and cried and laughed for a couple hours, I'm going to ask you this question that I'm going to like realize I didn't bring tissues in here for this because I'm going to cry again.

[00:17:47] But can you tell us about one place angel house and the friend of Henry program?

[00:17:55] Sure.

[00:17:57] Yeah, I've got to be careful not to get all theory too. So and these are the places that have my heart. So one place is the easiest to talk about because it's not actually in our jurisdiction.

[00:18:06] It's in Montgomery, Alabama and it is the one place family justice center.

[00:18:11] It is a fantastic concept where basically if you have become the victim of a violent crime, whether it's a sexual assault, domestic violence, child abuse, you go to one place.

[00:18:26] For all your needs. And that's why it's called one place. So what happens is they have law enforcement there who specializes in domestic violence in sex crimes, they have child advocacy centers there for their interviews, they have angel house and

[00:18:43] help house and recovery organizations for people who may have been involved in human trafficking or labor trafficking or need assistance.

[00:18:52] They have a closet there where you can get clothes for interviews and court, they have medical resources there, they have start saying nurses who perform the examinations if there has been a sexual assault or child sexual assault.

[00:19:06] They are all in this one block area and they have basically these little buildings and you move from one location to another within that block.

[00:19:16] And you're not being drug all over and you basically get an advocate who walks you through the entire process and they even have prosecutors who are there during certain times or will go there if they need to meet with individuals so that that individual is not druged in the entire city of Montgomery,

[00:19:32] through on from place to place, we go to them or in that jurisdiction they go to them to meet them for fill their needs, make sure they're taking care of and get them working through the process.

[00:19:44] I love one place and I hope we get more of them. It started out as the Sunshine Center and just grew and it's a great concept locally and in a lot of jurisdictions and a lot of areas we have angel house.

[00:19:58] Also a fantastic organization it is advocacy group who actually works with our victims and gets them through the process.

[00:20:08] With there's a violent crime they'll respond in the middle of the night, they will hold hands, they will drive victims and family to locations, they will get them moved around to court if need be.

[00:20:20] They also have group sessions where you can come and talk to other people who've been in this process. We have some and they come to court.

[00:20:28] I had a hearing yesterday and I turned around and looked and there was an advocate from the angel house, they're just to be present just to make sure that there's somebody there on behalf of the community and the victim, the survivor, they talk to them, they answer their questions, they hold their hands.

[00:20:46] They are great and most of them are volunteers.

[00:20:50] We're paid at a nonprofit wage so God bless them.

[00:20:55] And then of course you know friend of Henry that's.

[00:20:59] Yeah, that's my group of people.

[00:21:01] So our child advocacy center we have a facility dog, we have a dog who is the most beautiful creature on the face of Spine and he's my best friend other than you made it.

[00:21:13] His name is Henry and he has got I want to say he's an Australian shepherd, he's got a little wiggle butt and he hangs out with everybody and what we have done and I say we it's them.

[00:21:25] I'm just privileged to be here.

[00:21:28] They started a pediatric start saying program in our area that is run by the child advocacy center.

[00:21:37] They do everything from child abuse to child sexual abuse and that's in and the forensic exam right.

[00:21:46] Yes, yes, that's a friend of the forensic exam.

[00:21:48] Yes, we have two rooms in one of our hospitals.

[00:21:52] One is a soft room and the other is the examination room and our nurse who has been brought on board that is her job and she is amazing amazing.

[00:22:02] She has done all the hours of training.

[00:22:04] She has traveled to all the start saying clinics.

[00:22:06] She can go to she is sought out the expertise of people who have been doing this for years.

[00:22:11] She is constantly looking to be better just I do her.

[00:22:16] And what we do is she came up with this idea that if somebody has to come to the hospital to the emergency room either they're told to come or they're brought by law enforcement.

[00:22:30] Instead of walking into the ER and saying help me I've been sexually assaulted, they will walk in and say I'm a friend of Henry.

[00:22:38] Yeah, I'm going to lose it here.

[00:22:41] So I'm sorry.

[00:22:44] I mean, it's awesome that they've it's just a much easier way to go in there and say that and just let someone else take the reins and say okay well I know what to do with this and like we're going to we're going to walk upstairs and you know they don't have to worry about explaining themselves or saying anything in the waiting room.

[00:23:04] So there is no privacy.

[00:23:06] No ER.

[00:23:08] And checking in.

[00:23:09] Yeah, there's 100 people sitting in their waiting it's such a simple thing to implement that kind of change or you just have a little secret passphrase and you can walk in and everybody knows what to do and it's I'm a friend of Henry you're done like so easy.

[00:23:24] And so and this is all our nurses idea.

[00:23:27] This was a fantastic idea. She said she had it driving back from one of the clinics she had gone to tour and just came to her and it's beautiful and if that somebody walks in this as I'm a friend of Henry they move them into the soft room.

[00:23:41] We get an advocate to come and sit with them sit with their family we get her she's coming in to do the exam.

[00:23:47] She's got all this amazing equipment super high imaging cameras that can detect bruises under the skin are favorite when we tour it was there's a sloth I don't remember his name.

[00:23:59] A stuffed sloth that is a comfort animal that they can hold I think it gets warm or it has a heartbeat I don't remember.

[00:24:08] I tried to steal him I do remember that I think.

[00:24:12] But that's how they move through and then we have counselors at our child advocacy center that if you come and you have taken part in an interview.

[00:24:27] You can continue with services for counseling for mental health and they are trained and they are wonderful and I know I'm going to say that a lot but they are there just these are the most amazing human beings on the planet.

[00:24:39] And one of the things that the counselors would do with these kids is they'll get them all together and they'll make bracelets that say friend of Henry that they can give to everybody.

[00:24:50] And it's just nice, it's nice to wear it and everybody can see it when they see it on somebody else like hey I'm a friend of Henry too and the kids will make one for themselves and they'll make one to give away.

[00:25:00] So that when we go places when they go in there doing talks or they're doing education they can pass these bracelets out and get them into our community so everybody knows that if you need to have the friend of Henry.

[00:25:14] And of course we like you when Henry comes out he'll come and hang out with us at our functions and meet everybody because he makes everything better.

[00:25:22] Dogs do that.

[00:25:24] We don't deserve dogs, oh man.

[00:25:27] I think you also mentioned something about angel paws.

[00:25:31] Yes, that's my other best friend that is part of our hero program in Alabama we have what's called the hero program and I think and I wrote it down to make sure I got it right.

[00:25:42] And you can actually Google hero program.

[00:25:45] Alabama judicial hero program which is we have 13 of the best displays and girls that are dogs that are all over the state of Alabama and they are what we call facility dogs they are trained to work in a court system.

[00:26:04] And they are actually even trained to go on the witness stand with a victim and they are the most amazing almost all of them are labs or lab golden retriever mixes and we have boys and girls my favorite name for one of them is Jezebel.

[00:26:19] That's the best.

[00:26:20] I just love it we've got but Jezebel Wilson, Mandy.

[00:26:25] I'm trying to think of some of their other names.

[00:26:28] But there's 13 of them and there's rules about going on the witness stand but they will also come and hang out with victims and kids in the witness room for they have to testify.

[00:26:41] They're trained to go on the witness stand and not be seen so they will tuck up underneath the kids feet and be in the courtroom with them through the entire time they testify.

[00:26:51] They also will show up when we do interviews.

[00:26:54] So when I'm starting to prep a child for court, I want the first questions I usually ask when my first man is is do you like dogs and if they say they like dogs I'm like right I have a dog I want you to meet and I will call the handle and say hey can you be here tomorrow at two o'clock I've got a kid I need you to hang out with and he is so fantastic because he'll bring the dog by drop her off in my office and then kind of just slip out into the hallway and hang out because if we need him.

[00:27:19] But she will stay in the room with us and it just changes the entire dynamic of how these kids are able to process everything.

[00:27:28] It's so much easier when you can pet something fuzzy and feel comfortable and she is so great she will climb in their lap or she'll lick their hand or she'll just put her head on their knee and make it all okay while we're going over the most traumatic experience of this person's life.

[00:27:44] She makes it so much easier for them to get through talking about it.

[00:27:50] I'll just be crying.

[00:27:52] It's amazing I know we just rattled or you just rattled off all these different agencies and advocacy centers and stuff but we've gotten a handful definitely too many messages from listeners that are impacted by sexual assault and some former fashion so

[00:28:10] I think when you reached out to us we were excited to provide resources and show people that there's options out there there's these advocacy centers and places like one place and

[00:28:23] Angel what was it Angel house and yes.

[00:28:26] Yeah, there's just an angel pause and we've had a lot of people have been asking for like resources whether that's just reading materials or websites or organizations

[00:28:35] they can reach out to for whatever reason they're just trying to heal or maybe they're thinking about reporting the crime and so yeah.

[00:28:45] It's good to show people that if they decide to reach out for help whether it's reporting or just therapy or finding out what their options are there are these incredible compassionate options run by the most wonderful people on the planet

[00:29:04] who think through like are it how can we make this absolutely traumatic experience easier on someone how can we show them that they're loved and cared about in this horrific moment.

[00:29:16] And I think anyone who listens to this is the experience trauma will hopefully get some hope out of this episode just learning how much thought goes into trying to take care of people in these awful moments.

[00:29:32] So it's it's beautiful what you guys are doing and I wish wish I had had all of these things.

[00:29:40] You you talk to us about your process for just building a rapport with survivors and how you go about prepping them.

[00:29:52] For court are you able to share some of that with our listeners today?

[00:29:57] Absolutely.

[00:29:58] So anytime first of all I hope that anybody who's a prosecutor and I was actually talking to another young lady in my office who's joined us last year who's a prosecutor she's well seasoned prosecutor, which has only been with us about a year.

[00:30:12] And we get so upset when we hear prosecutors who don't take the time to meet and work with their victims and their survivors it's just unacceptable.

[00:30:27] And and if you are a prosecutor I will say this if you're a prosecutor who's listening to this and you don't do that shame on you just absolutely shame on you you should hang your head in shame.

[00:30:36] Every day for that because we do this job for that reason and again our survivors aren't just the individuals the living breathing victim is our community and our state.

[00:30:49] And every other potential victim down the road and if you don't keep that in mind.

[00:30:55] And again, if you're a prosecutor listen this and you're one of those people who don't do those things I hope that you look at getting another profession because that is the disservice that you do.

[00:31:04] Because we get one shot if we walk into court we get one shot to try this case usually and to get that justice that we need for everybody and if you don't take it seriously I'm just appalled.

[00:31:16] So people who don't properly prep their witnesses and their survivors it just discussed us so we take a lot of time and kids are especially.

[00:31:27] Especially delicate because we're about to throw them into a world we can't get most adults to participate in and ask them to do some very very hard things.

[00:31:37] So, and I learned this from the the man who's now my boss when he was a prosecutor in our office I went to him and he has the most wonderful way of dealing with kids and I listened to him.

[00:31:48] I don't know who taught him but he took the time to teach it to me and it has been tried and true.

[00:31:54] So what I normally do is I'll have a meeting set up with our survivor and depends on their age whether they're parents stays in there or not.

[00:32:02] If they're kind of a teenager I'll give them the option do you want your guardian or parent to stay in here with us or do you want it to be just me and you.

[00:32:09] Sometimes they feel more comfortable with just me sometimes they feel more comfortable with the parent there or whoever they've brought with them is support and what I'll do is I just start the normal conversation of okay let me just the first the first meeting is just.

[00:32:23] Let's talk about who I am let's talk about who you are let's talk about why you're here let's talk about the court system and what we can expect over the next little bit.

[00:32:32] And I am going to be honest with them I'm going to be candid with them I tell them I will never tell them a lie.

[00:32:38] I will tell them honestly everything is going to happen and we just kind of go through with the court process is going to be who's going to be in the courtroom what can you expect when you walk in the courtroom.

[00:32:47] What is going to happen who's going to be there listening to you?

[00:32:51] Who do you want their listening to you do you want your parent or guardian in the room when you testify do you want the child advocacy center there with us do you want a dog on the witness stand with you.

[00:33:01] And we go through all of that and it's just kind of a meet and greet getting them to lay their eyeballs on me and know that I'm a person and I get to know that they're person.

[00:33:10] I have my office set up so hopefully it says comfortable as possible for kids.

[00:33:15] I collect minions I have minions all over I have a basket of fidget toys that they can use I have a couch that they can sit on if they're more comfortable curling up versus sitting in a office chair.

[00:33:27] And depending on what day of the week it is I try to dress down a little bit so that I'm not.

[00:33:33] This woman who's just sitting there in a suit talking at them.

[00:33:37] Yeah, I need them to trust me and I need start building that report and then we usually just conclude that first meeting.

[00:33:44] If the second meeting is when we actually start getting into the nitty gritty of okay I need you to tell me what happened I need you to tell me what you remember.

[00:33:53] I need you to talk to me about all of those things and especially our younger kids probably under the age of 13.

[00:34:00] I spend a lot of time on conversation of okay I need you to understand I work in the courts.

[00:34:06] I'm going to use words I'm comfortable with to talk about things I want you to use words you're comfortable talking about things.

[00:34:12] I'm going to use the correct terms the the anatomical terms the physical terms for body parts that's why I'm comfortable.

[00:34:19] You tell me what words you're comfortable with and that's what I want you to use and I may ask you when you say your cupcake does that mean you're vagina and all you have to do is tell me yes or no,

[00:34:29] but you can refer to it as your cupcake all day long that's what makes you comfortable.

[00:34:34] And we're going to go through as much as they remember of what happened and if they participated in a forensic interview at the child advocacy center I may have them watch their interview again,

[00:34:45] especially if there's gaps in their memory.

[00:34:49] I may have them read what they wrote as a witness statement or a journal entry if they were got that process in their recovery with counseling where they've done journaling.

[00:35:00] I may have them read that to refresh their memory and we're going to kind of leave the meeting there.

[00:35:06] We're just going to go over it one time and then the next time I try to meet with them I'm going to try to meet with them outside of our office.

[00:35:13] I'm going to try to take them to a playground I'm going to try to meet with them at the child advocacy center I'm going to try to meet with them at McDonald's playland if they're kids and we're not going to talk about the case at all.

[00:35:25] At least I'm not if they want to ask me a question I'm going to answer it but I'm not going to bring it up at all.

[00:35:30] I don't want them to associate me with all the bad stuff.

[00:35:34] So I'm going to try to any time we're outside the courtroom or outside the court house only be a happy person that is there for good things and only talk about the bad stuff or what happened to them in the courthouse so that maybe they can associate me with not being so scary.

[00:35:53] Because the whole thing is terrifying and then the last time we meet usually we're going to actually move up into one of our court rooms and we're going to practice.

[00:36:02] We're going to practice getting on the witness stand we're going to practice our questions we're going to lay out where everybody's going to be sitting who's going to be there where do I want them to look so that they don't have to look at the person that violated them the whole time.

[00:36:18] And I'm going to tell them strategically I'm going to place people in the courtroom that are safe people that are helpers that they know and if they get scared or they don't know what to do where I want them to look to be reassured.

[00:36:30] And I remind my witnesses and my victims all the time if you get scared if you don't know what's going on if you don't know who to talk to look at me.

[00:36:38] We're in this together we start this together we end this together.

[00:36:42] You look at me and it's going to be okay you tell your story to me if you don't know where else to look because I want them to trust me and we're going to go through all those meetings to help build that trust hopefully.

[00:36:52] Because I need them to trust I'm going to be there for them and through with them the entire process because it's terrifying.

[00:36:59] I get scared still when I walk in the court. The judges are scary the jurors are terrifying because there's 12 people we don't know that we're about to tell a story to.

[00:37:09] And I need them to trust that we're doing the best we can but it's really, really scary and I can't imagine being a little person.

[00:37:16] A little human who has not only had a terrifying experience happened now we want you to come into this foreign environment and talk about it.

[00:37:24] So we're going to do everything we can we surround them with people who are there to help.

[00:37:29] I have the most amazing victim service officer she is phenomenal because when I go into trial prep mode true trial prep mode.

[00:37:38] With my little survivors and my teenagers and I keep calling them mine because I feel connected to them.

[00:37:46] I am a little more understanding I'm a little more comforting but when I start to get really ready to try a case I'm going into absolute beast mode.

[00:37:56] I'm thinking about all the things I have to do in court to be successful for them.

[00:38:03] So I'm not always I'm kind of in my own head a lot is what I'm trying to say she is able to be able to remind me one be gentle.

[00:38:14] Be kind don't be snappy and she's also able there to give that comfort to the family and everybody else while I'm off being in my own head and dealing with issues for court.

[00:38:27] So she almost always there at every meeting with me with a child so that that she can give that added comfort to them and she's another face like I said she's a helper.

[00:38:36] She's a safe person so if they don't know what else to do they can go to her.

[00:38:40] The counselors and our in forensic interviewers from the child advocacy center.

[00:38:45] They're going to be there if we can help it they sit in a gallery and support us through the trial they support our victims through the trial their faces they know.

[00:38:53] And they're going to be able to look to them too so we know no matter what we have a support system on our side of the courtroom.

[00:39:01] We need to go with that with that child and they'll go out with the child too and we've even had.

[00:39:07] Baca show up bikers against child abuse.

[00:39:10] We've had them show up in Surround our court house and walk our victim in.

[00:39:14] For a case and be in the courtroom for them.

[00:39:19] While they've had to testify so that is we we rely on all of that to get everything together and make it hopefully work.

[00:39:30] The Baca one always gets me to.

[00:39:34] And there's nothing more comforting than big scary.

[00:39:38] Vickers who are big teddy bears.

[00:39:40] There's nothing because you see I'm like oh he's a little scary and then he's like hey okay you ready to go and they hold somebody's low hand and like oh my god.

[00:39:50] You're going to make me just cry.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:53] Yeah, I call you got some friends like the pallets mother psych.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] And they do a lot of I mean as somebody rides motorcycles like they do a lot of they call my poker runs poker but you're on a motorcycle and you get cards and all kinds of stuff.

[00:40:09] But they do a lot of fundraising for that stuff and you get tons of people like me that like I'm not actually involved in that but it's like oh it's a ride.

[00:40:18] I like what are cycles of going to ride.

[00:40:21] I give them 25 bucks or whatever and you get to participate and they you know it's it's a good.

[00:40:26] It's really good organization.

[00:40:27] I don't know what's on about it but I have participated in those events before and yeah it's always a good experience with that group.

[00:40:35] They do good work.

[00:40:36] And I feel like as as the survivor you know you were you were talking about how you have to go into beast mode and you're in your own head like getting ready to fight the good fighting court.

[00:40:47] And I think as a survivor is like I know I had to go into my own head a lot just to get through that and it can be very isolating because it feels like it's you against the whole world.

[00:41:00] And I hope for for folks who are listening that this reminds you that it's okay you can isolate you can you can withdraw into yourself if that's what you need to do but there are random people in the community who actually really care.

[00:41:15] And even if they don't know what's on about it, they're going to donate and participate in the rides or like maybe yeah maybe they'll show up or teach their dog out to be a support animal like there are so many people in the community who actually do care and.

[00:41:33] And it can feel so isolating and that's valid but I want to remind you that you're not actually alone in this there are so many people who care about you and about this issue and.

[00:41:46] And I want to show up and support and care for you in any way they know how and I think it's just it's just beautiful work y'all are doing in Alabama my gosh I didn't.

[00:41:59] And I don't know how many hours a week do you work woman like nobody did that for me I was always treated like I was this like new since and they just needed to get through it like if I had questions it was like we'll just get her out of here get answered I don't know tell or something and make her go away.

[00:42:24] And then like that was my experience for four years and never felt like anyone involved in my case give a damn about me as a human really care that much about the outcome.

[00:42:35] And I think it was just another number another case for them and no one like took time with me and me feel safe basically ever.

[00:42:46] And that just absolutely devastated me and that was one of the things I think I reached out and told you I can't I can't.

[00:42:52] So this may be your as a prosecutor or lawyer it may be your.

[00:43:00] And we went to school for a long time to learn how the system works and we did a lot of trauma job training to learn how the system works no matter what side you work on.

[00:43:15] And so that's the first time most likely ever walking into a courtroom we have to take a whole test for three to five days.

[00:43:22] To figure out how to before we're the enough to walk into a courtroom and practice law and get we're asking somebody else who is either a little human being or a victim who's been through a traumatic event to walk in and understand the whole process without stopping to explain it to them.

[00:43:37] That is probably the most elitist condescending attitude I can think of and it just guts me when I hear somebody say well they don't spend any time with me.

[00:43:49] And even if it's picking up the phone and telling your witness or your survivor okay listen your case is not up yet.

[00:43:57] I don't think it's going to be up any time.

[00:43:59] Sam, do you have any questions for me? I'm just checking in.

[00:44:04] All right if you have questions give us a call just that and and I'm again I have the most wonderful victim service officer who normally handles that while I'm prepping cases actually to go to trial that month.

[00:44:16] She's making contact with people or she'll come to my office and say so and so called.

[00:44:21] I need you to make sure that we call them okay let's do that right now and she'll stand by and make sure I do it so that I don't forget so that doesn't get passed away.

[00:44:29] Because every victim is just as important as every other victim every witness is just as important as every other witness.

[00:44:35] And I have some who I give myself a number two just because one I pay for the cell phone and I can block and delete anybody who becomes a problem.

[00:44:45] But I've never had anybody become a problem. Hey if you need something in the middle of the night to talk about or if you need to let me know what's going on or you have a question.

[00:44:54] And we have some amazing young ladies and men and even some of my victim representatives who will just text me and say just checking in, haven't heard anything in a couple months.

[00:45:04] And I will respond nothing's going on there's been no changes. Thank you for checking in I'll keep you updated.

[00:45:10] And that's enough. That's sometimes that's enough. Yeah, I mean that would amend the world's me I was supposed to have an advocate through the prosecutor's office and they were supposed to call me and update me after every single hearing which was about every month.

[00:45:30] I heard from them I think two times in four years and they I mean there were hearings with continuances almost every month for four years.

[00:45:39] I heard from them twice every other time I had to reach out for updates and yeah that was that was fun.

[00:45:51] We have our victim advocate call hey we have a hearing coming up you don't have to be there will keep you updated what happened afterwards.

[00:45:58] Hey nothing has changed just let you know we we think this may be set for this time later on.

[00:46:06] And it takes her it's a lot of work for her because she has to wrangle all of our lawyers and it's like wrangling a bunch of cats which means every every victim for every single case in the larger and well in our courthouse.

[00:46:21] And she's a member of her responsibility and she does that beautifully.

[00:46:26] I don't know how she juggles everything but she does and she picks up and she works that phone and she calls him and she builds a great report with them and helps me to get that report helps all of us not just me all of our all of our prosecutors.

[00:46:39] And she's there for him and she takes the messages and she talks to him and she updates me I was going on and makes me look good sometimes when I have forgotten somebody's name.

[00:46:48] I don't mean a victim that's that's easy but it'll be a random witness or something like.

[00:46:53] She's like that's all so all right got it hey how are you doing get to see you and she.

[00:46:58] Listen she works her butt off I don't know she's not getting paid enough I know that.

[00:47:03] Those people make such a difference in the mental health outcomes for the survivors going through that process.

[00:47:12] I think that I I could contribute most of my mental health issues during those four years to.

[00:47:18] Wack of information and being afraid to reach out because I was always treated like a burden when I did.

[00:47:24] It's the not knowing that drives so much of the anxiety and even if you're told hey nothing going on at least you know there's nothing going on you're not like well what are they trying to get the time.

[00:47:36] Because the only time I ever heard from the prosecutor was if something was wrong like until she eventually a couple years in she started answering.

[00:47:44] You know, I just I just stopped even contacting the victim advocate and just went to her I would sometimes wait forever to hear back from her.

[00:47:51] I mean, I mean, I would I would see her number come up and like I would like I was going to be up and I feel like I was going to vomit.

[00:47:57] And because if she was in touch with me something had gone horribly wrong that was the only time she reached out to me of her own.

[00:48:17] I'm sure each out to me of her own.

[00:48:19] I have a lot of conversations that I start with hey nothing's wrong because I feel like that every time I call or nobody's in trouble nothing bad is happening.

[00:48:28] I just want to talk to you about this aspect whatever's happening right then hey it's been said that have you gotten your subpoena has been set on a doc it we're looking at possibly having a trial or know it is so far down the list don't do anything to hear from me again.

[00:48:42] I'm just letting you know it's probably not going to make it into the trial line up this time.

[00:48:47] I just want to touch banks with you everything's fine or hey we're going to have a hearing and you don't have to be there this is what I think is going to happen but you're more than welcome to be there if you're not we're going to call you afterwards.

[00:48:57] And let you know what happened.

[00:49:00] And then we because I yes I had that where every time the phone rings from a certain person you just know it's bad news you just know some things are on.

[00:49:09] And it just sends you into just that state of automatic panic before you even answer the phone.

[00:49:14] I'll start some conversation that's in trouble.

[00:49:17] Just need to talk to you for a second do you have a moment to speak to me do you want to get someplace private and call me back.

[00:49:23] Because that's the other thing is I hate having these I call people out of the blue on a random Friday afternoon while you're in the grocery store.

[00:49:31] How unsettling is that so again I start with do you have a moment to speak to me or deserve better time we can talk.

[00:49:38] Because can you imagine trying to get groceries and also have just been rattled by the fact that you're now being asked to talk about again the worst moment of your life.

[00:49:48] And you have a choice if you've not been able to get a hold of this person either do it right now or run the risk of not being him speaks to them again.

[00:49:56] That that has got to be so stressful on an individual and I think I do I think about those things yeah and I mean.

[00:50:04] That's that's incredible that you do because yeah I would get calls right before I'd go make big work presentations and I would yep yep see your face and I would have to just like stay in there.

[00:50:19] Having just had a panic attack in my office feeling like as I think sometimes I did throw off and then like I'd have to just pull my shit together and go to a presentation because I always and I don't and a professional and ahead to.

[00:50:33] And I can imagine trying to live your life during the court process if you're don't know when something's happening you can't plan like can't plan anything because you don't know if you're going to get the call like hey you're up next week.

[00:50:52] You want somebody to tell you like hey the cases for next month they're already set and it's not us so you're clear for the next four weeks or whatever and imagine that alleviate some pressure.

[00:51:04] And something unknown there to be able to just live life in the process this because I know if like for a man to like you were going you were you just got into the military in the middle of of that.

[00:51:15] Yeah yeah so I get it wasn't then yeah then it wasn't just like I had to go make a work presentation for my civilian job I found out about the plea deal and when I needed to be back in Chicago for the sensing hearing.

[00:51:29] The second week of officer training school yes and then everything most intensive programs ever.

[00:51:35] Yeah yeah and and I was the flight leader that week and like the hardest thing for me initially was calling cadence because like there were times where you had to stand facing your flight and like call it backwards and call flanking movements and I really struggled with that initially.

[00:51:51] I'll still be in a flanking movement it's like the turning maneuvers when you're marching a military group yeah hopefully that makes sense and.

[00:52:01] Trying to concentrate and focus and also like we were in the academic portion I was taking tests and writing papers and.

[00:52:11] But yeah the hardest part was trying to like keep my brain clear enough to call cadence backwards facing my flight and have them do flanking movements while also just like.

[00:52:22] Just having had that bomb dropped on my head.

[00:52:25] That was not fun.

[00:52:27] So another thing you mentioned to us before was the rust model.

[00:52:34] Yeah so that's what I refer to it as probably helping me if you knew I referred to that way but.

[00:52:40] So again, I.

[00:52:43] I've just I'm so privileged that I work with the most I may I just I know I keep saying it but I work in the most wonderful jurisdiction everybody I work with is fantastic and I have been so lucky to work with people who've taken the time to teach me.

[00:53:00] What what is great and I don't know who taught them but God bless those people too because they passed on and it got to me and so.

[00:53:08] What we do.

[00:53:10] Every jurisdiction and I mean across the United States is different about how you select a jury.

[00:53:16] If you'll see the TV shows where they selected jury sometimes you'll see him it's all dramatic they've got 13 people in the witness on the jury box and they individually question every one of them that does happen some places.

[00:53:30] Not here not where I work at so we have 37 to 50 or more potential jurors that will come in and they sit in front of you and you just start asking them questions and you try to get them to talk to you it is.

[00:53:46] That's terrifying especially the first time when you start out doing this because you kind of feel like you're talking at them and they're just looking at you they don't want to be there.

[00:53:54] They don't want to sit and listen to you talk all morning, they want to be at their jobs, they want to be at home, they don't want to listen to a bunch of lawyers talk about stuff they don't care about so we need to engage them and when we have an opportunity we try to also spend that time educating the potential jurors about what they we expect to present in this case,

[00:54:14] and see if they have any just biased.

[00:54:17] And that's not even necessarily a bad bias,

[00:54:19] just maybe they think that one of my witnesses

[00:54:21] looks like they're ex-brothering along who they hate.

[00:54:24] I need to know that.

[00:54:25] If you're not gonna listen to this guy

[00:54:26] because he looks like Frank and you hate Frank,

[00:54:29] I need to know that Frank is an issue.

[00:54:31] I mean, no Frank is, but if he's an issue,

[00:54:32] I need to know.

[00:54:33] So one of the things we do that I was taught

[00:54:37] by a wonderful mentor was when we have a child sex crime,

[00:54:42] we are going to walk in

[00:54:43] and I'm going to ask some preliminary questions.

[00:54:45] I usually ask about prior jury service.

[00:54:47] I ask, you know, we need to know raise names.

[00:54:52] I tell them a little bit about the case.

[00:54:53] I said, hey, this case, just give you the facts.

[00:54:56] I think it happened on April 25th, 2022

[00:54:59] at this location involving these individuals.

[00:55:03] Do any of those names ring a bell?

[00:55:04] We kind of go through the preliminary stuff

[00:55:06] and then I'll say, okay, we've all got

[00:55:07] and know each other a little bit.

[00:55:09] Now we're gonna talk about some more details

[00:55:11] of our personal lives and I'll usually point to somebody

[00:55:14] I like to do a man if possible

[00:55:16] because it makes them really uncomfortable.

[00:55:18] And that's what I'm trying to drive home

[00:55:19] and I'll say, you, sir, what we're all gonna do now

[00:55:22] is we're gonna go around the room

[00:55:23] and we're all gonna talk about our last sexual experience

[00:55:26] who was with, where it was at

[00:55:28] and whether it was enjoyable.

[00:55:30] All right, so I'm gonna start here,

[00:55:31] serve with you and I usually pick

[00:55:32] like the first man to my left.

[00:55:33] If you'll stand up, no, sir, yeah, go ahead, stand up,

[00:55:36] seriously, stand up and I want you to tell

[00:55:38] all these ladies and gentlemen here

[00:55:39] about, again, your last sexual experience

[00:55:42] who was with, where it was at, was it enjoyable?

[00:55:45] And they'll just kind of look at me

[00:55:46] and I'm like, okay, probably no, I'm joking a little bit

[00:55:49] but go ahead and have a seat.

[00:55:50] And then I go into about, do you understand

[00:55:54] for just a moment, even though most of you

[00:55:56] knew I wasn't serious, did you not get scared

[00:55:59] that fear that you felt about having to speak

[00:56:02] not only publicly which is our number one fears human beings

[00:56:07] but that you were gonna have to talk about

[00:56:08] a very, very personal situation in front

[00:56:11] of a bunch of strangers.

[00:56:13] What I want you to keep in mind is I'm about

[00:56:15] to bring a young lady or a young man

[00:56:17] into this courtroom who has truly been a victim

[00:56:21] of this individual and ask them to do just that

[00:56:25] and I want you to keep in mind

[00:56:27] that fear that she felt because I'm asking them to do this

[00:56:31] and if they don't react the way you think they should

[00:56:33] react at certain times or cry when you think they should cry

[00:56:37] or don't cry when you think they shouldn't cry.

[00:56:39] I don't want you to hold that against them

[00:56:41] because they're barely gonna hold it together

[00:56:43] to get in here and do that.

[00:56:44] And I want to make sure that you give them

[00:56:48] all of the attention and credit that they deserve

[00:56:51] for this undertaking

[00:56:53] and I'm hoping what we're trying to do is frame it

[00:56:55] for them to understand the absolute paramount fear

[00:56:59] this child has walking into this room

[00:57:02] and then subjecting themselves not only to telling the story

[00:57:05] to us because I'm gonna be kind.

[00:57:09] I've worked with them, I care about them

[00:57:12] but that defense attorney, depending on who they are

[00:57:14] is going to be anything but kind

[00:57:16] and anything but respectful

[00:57:18] and they're going to do everything they can

[00:57:20] to demolish that child in front of these people

[00:57:23] and show their either mistaken, confused or an outright liar

[00:57:28] and they're subjecting themselves to that.

[00:57:30] They're subjecting themselves to another adult

[00:57:33] and just usually a man knows to turn his or males

[00:57:37] who are going to yell at them and scream at them

[00:57:39] or belittle them or try to confuse them with words

[00:57:43] all of that is what you're about to see.

[00:57:45] And I'm asking that child to do that

[00:57:47] and they're going to do that

[00:57:49] for their own mental health and for our community.

[00:57:52] So we, and I refer to the person who taught that to me

[00:57:55] I refer to it as him, his name, rest of the rest model

[00:57:58] because he's the one that taught me how to do that.

[00:58:00] Let's think so.

[00:58:01] Yeah, the reason I asked that question

[00:58:04] or I found it interesting is just to get another,

[00:58:08] to me, that would have been a comforting thing to know.

[00:58:11] Like there's a lawyer out there that's going to defend you

[00:58:13] that's going to make sure that everybody in the room

[00:58:16] and especially the jurors know how hard this is.

[00:58:20] Like everybody's going to know

[00:58:22] and you're going to have people that are there by your side

[00:58:25] that are on your team and like they go to bat for you like that.

[00:58:30] Like that's to me, that's a huge thing.

[00:58:32] And I've obviously not been through this

[00:58:34] or had to deal with it personally but you know,

[00:58:37] it would be comforting for me to know that

[00:58:41] that's who's on my side.

[00:58:43] They're going to make sure that everybody else

[00:58:46] is just as uncomfortable as I am.

[00:58:48] If your lawyer please start doing this.

[00:58:50] It's implemented the rest model.

[00:58:52] That you could literally save lives.

[00:58:55] And I wish I could take credit for it.

[00:58:59] And I know that it's been passed down.

[00:59:02] I hope there are, I'm sure there's other people that do it.

[00:59:04] I wish I was smart enough to have come up with it.

[00:59:06] I was not but I was lucky enough to get taught that by my mentor.

[00:59:10] So I appreciate him every day for taking the time to at least show

[00:59:14] somebody who had no idea what they're doing.

[00:59:16] I started what to do.

[00:59:17] That's incredible.

[00:59:19] Can you just tell them thank you for the me,

[00:59:22] the minimum person?

[00:59:23] I would have had to tell them.

[00:59:25] OK, thank you.

[00:59:27] Another question we wanted to ask you is if you can speak

[00:59:32] to the number of victims at typical sex offender has.

[00:59:37] And just generally like the prevalence

[00:59:39] of sexual assault and sexual violence,

[00:59:41] I think a lot of people like to think it doesn't exist.

[00:59:45] And they like to forget it exists.

[00:59:46] And it's easy to do until it comes knocking

[00:59:49] at your door.

[00:59:50] It happens to you or someone you know,

[00:59:51] love or care about.

[00:59:54] And tell her unless that happens, which you know, God forbid.

[00:59:57] It's just kind of this ethereal idea of something that

[01:00:00] happens to everyone else.

[01:00:01] But it's actually very, very prevalent

[01:00:03] and some of you are some of this field could you talk a bit

[01:00:06] about that?

[01:00:07] Sure.

[01:00:08] I wish it wasn't as prevalent as it is.

[01:00:10] It is preach overwhelming the amount of cases that we see.

[01:00:17] Just and we're not a huge metropolitan area where I'm at.

[01:00:20] It's not.

[01:00:21] So I can't imagine bigger areas the amount.

[01:00:27] And I've seen this, I like to say it.

[01:00:31] People don't like to believe monsters exist

[01:00:33] until they look under their bed and find one.

[01:00:36] It's easy to, if you are in a great household,

[01:00:39] you have a great family, you grow that nuclear family,

[01:00:42] and mom and dad, everybody loves you

[01:00:44] and cherry pie and baseball games.

[01:00:47] You don't believe it happens, but it does.

[01:00:50] So what I've seen is it kind of depends on the type

[01:00:54] of a fender we have.

[01:00:56] We have an opportunistic offender who is going to victimize

[01:01:02] people that they're able to come and contact with easily.

[01:01:04] They're own children, stepchildren, relatives,

[01:01:08] friends of relatives, kids that your friends

[01:01:11] are their own kids that come over.

[01:01:14] It may be one or two victims or it may be one.

[01:01:19] We may have caught them early this time on that individual.

[01:01:23] Or these are the terrifying ones.

[01:01:26] I mean they're all scary, but this is the one that's

[01:01:28] that terrifying me is the ones that put themselves

[01:01:31] in the paths of children on purpose.

[01:01:33] The predators, the true predators,

[01:01:35] the people that we see the after school special about.

[01:01:37] People we see the documentaries on,

[01:01:39] they are out there, they exist.

[01:01:42] I have been face to face with them, other prosecutors

[01:01:45] on my office have been face to face with them.

[01:01:47] We have tried cases against them and we've made

[01:01:49] right cases, our long-forces,

[01:01:50] made great cases where they've played guilty.

[01:01:53] And it's horrifying because we can go from anywhere

[01:01:56] from one victim to 20 victims.

[01:01:59] And I remember one, it predates my time

[01:02:02] at the district attorney's office, but this offender

[01:02:07] he was the textbook offender.

[01:02:11] He put himself in the paths of these kids

[01:02:13] through church and community organizations.

[01:02:17] He assisted single parents in making sure

[01:02:20] that these kids got to their baseball games

[01:02:23] and there's doctors appointments

[01:02:25] and social events, and he crossed gender lines,

[01:02:29] which was really unusual.

[01:02:30] He violated not only young women but young boys,

[01:02:34] ages all different ages.

[01:02:36] And it went on for years because he was such a good guy

[01:02:41] in the community.

[01:02:43] And the kids were afraid to tell

[01:02:46] because they would lose their parents would have to go back

[01:02:52] to missing work to take them places

[01:02:54] or he would pay for them to do fun things too.

[01:02:58] He would pay for them to go to vacations

[01:03:00] or amusement parks or the beach or on trips

[01:03:04] and they would have lost that

[01:03:05] or their brothers and sisters would have lost that

[01:03:08] if they told.

[01:03:09] So all of these responsibilities were on that survivor's shoulders

[01:03:16] who had a choice to tell or not tell which just meant

[01:03:20] we had other kids being brought into the fold

[01:03:22] through this time and we're being victimized.

[01:03:25] And like I said, the case predates me.

[01:03:27] So I don't remember how the first person came forward

[01:03:31] and said this is what's going on.

[01:03:33] But when that first person came,

[01:03:34] all the domino started to fall.

[01:03:36] But I think he had 20 or more victims

[01:03:39] that finally came forward.

[01:03:41] And I've had anywhere from one to,

[01:03:45] I think the most I've seen was seven in my time here

[01:03:51] and again this was somebody who prayed on not his children

[01:03:56] but friends of his children.

[01:03:59] And with, and friends and children of his own friends

[01:04:02] who would come over, you know how you get a little play day

[01:04:04] going on and then everybody would spend the night.

[01:04:07] Well, now we've got five or six kids in the house

[01:04:10] that are all there for somebody who he would never do

[01:04:13] something like that until he gets caught.

[01:04:17] Yeah.

[01:04:20] Yeah.

[01:04:21] Kyle we're gonna revisit this,

[01:04:22] let us sleep over thing.

[01:04:23] I have listeners on my side.

[01:04:25] We got messages.

[01:04:26] I was like, look at just talking in our house.

[01:04:30] I, and I understand I came from a very different house

[01:04:34] and you know what, like you said,

[01:04:36] when it's all baseball games and ice cream

[01:04:39] and nuclear family, all that kind of stuff.

[01:04:43] Like I slept over at people's houses all the time.

[01:04:47] Sometimes for like a week at a time

[01:04:49] like just gone all the time, summertime, never home.

[01:04:54] And Amanda rightfully has a different opinion on that

[01:04:58] and we have very different experiences.

[01:04:59] So it's a, it's tricky to navigate.

[01:05:02] Well, I think you know what Jennifer was saying to about

[01:05:07] how these are like great people in the community.

[01:05:09] The sex crimes, trends, and socioeconomic level,

[01:05:15] race, ethnicity, everything.

[01:05:19] So it's not like it's not just,

[01:05:22] oh if it's a happy nuclear family nothing's gonna happen

[01:05:25] because technically I had that, you know?

[01:05:27] Technically I did have a mom and a dad

[01:05:31] who didn't get divorced, they stayed together

[01:05:33] and we all have been the same home,

[01:05:35] siblings, the whole Shabang.

[01:05:37] We even had a golden retriever at one point

[01:05:39] and a white pick at fence.

[01:05:41] So like it can happen anywhere

[01:05:45] and I know it's terrifying

[01:05:46] and I don't wanna fear longer

[01:05:48] but at the same time,

[01:05:50] perpetrators are cunning and charismatic.

[01:05:53] We know that we know that the reason they're able to get

[01:05:57] their hands on so many victims is because people like them.

[01:06:03] And you know, it's not the, you know,

[01:06:05] oh, the guy in the van.

[01:06:08] I mean, not that that doesn't happen

[01:06:10] but it's not the guy in the van trying to give your kid

[01:06:12] candy, it's the pastor, it's the uncle,

[01:06:14] it's, you know, the best friend of forever

[01:06:19] at the aunt, the grandma.

[01:06:20] Like, I listened to that episode about the sleep

[01:06:23] over thing.

[01:06:24] Amanda, I'm on your side.

[01:06:25] Thank you.

[01:06:26] I'm sorry, cause I, and I'm tremendously older than you guys

[01:06:29] but I was not allowed to spend the night at Harley anybody's house.

[01:06:32] My mom used to say, you know, who's gonna take care of you

[01:06:34] better than me, nobody.

[01:06:36] Nobody.

[01:06:37] I'm gonna make sure that nothing bad happens to you.

[01:06:39] So you're gonna be, and I was like,

[01:06:40] you're the worst mom ever.

[01:06:42] No, no.

[01:06:43] Well, I don't, I was like,

[01:06:45] I got older, I saw the wisdom of her ways as far as that.

[01:06:48] And I would never, I had had kids.

[01:06:51] I would not have let them sleep over either.

[01:06:53] Or I would have been there.

[01:06:55] I'd have been a part of the group.

[01:06:57] You know, that's all when my friend does.

[01:06:59] She and her best friend will do sleepovers

[01:07:03] but they all like, she and her friend and her friend's daughter

[01:07:06] and her daughter.

[01:07:06] Like, they all go on trips together

[01:07:08] or they do sleepovers together.

[01:07:10] And also, I will say my friend has curated

[01:07:13] just an incredible relationship with her young daughter

[01:07:16] where they like even therapists have noted like,

[01:07:19] wow, you guys have such a bond.

[01:07:21] She trusts you.

[01:07:22] She talks to you.

[01:07:23] She opens up to you and tells you things.

[01:07:25] So I think that's also a very important part

[01:07:27] of parenting is having that rapport with your kids

[01:07:29] so that they have more confidence

[01:07:32] when something horrifying and terrible happens.

[01:07:35] It doesn't mean that they will tell you

[01:07:36] because sexual assault is terrifying

[01:07:38] and scary and embarrassing and awful

[01:07:39] when you're the person experiencing it.

[01:07:41] But it increases the likelihood

[01:07:43] that your child will open up to you and tell you.

[01:07:45] So, I'm on my little educational rant again

[01:07:48] but I think I would do that.

[01:07:51] Like, okay, if we had a kid and we did like a sleepover

[01:07:56] with everybody that would be a little different.

[01:07:59] Then like, okay, dearly beloved child,

[01:08:01] whom I would die for go off to this other place

[01:08:03] and don't get raped.

[01:08:05] Like, I know I'm being a little crass here

[01:08:06] but also it's true.

[01:08:10] Yeah, there's one of those things

[01:08:11] where there's creative solutions to that.

[01:08:13] It's not just, well, they go to that person's house

[01:08:16] or they come to your house.

[01:08:18] Like, it doesn't have to be either or.

[01:08:20] There's ways to think outside the box there

[01:08:23] and that's a great one too.

[01:08:25] It's just like, he will everybody does it together.

[01:08:27] If we have children someday listeners check back

[01:08:29] and not a bit of Kyle got divorced over this week over it.

[01:08:34] I probably, it's like, we settled on that one.

[01:08:40] And we'll compromise or make sense.

[01:08:43] That makes sense.

[01:08:44] Well, do you okay, you go ahead, Kyle?

[01:08:47] No, I was just gonna say that's actually kind of a good segue

[01:08:49] into the next question we're gonna ask about

[01:08:52] in your experience with familial crimes.

[01:08:56] Do you see adults protecting their kids?

[01:09:02] I've seen both.

[01:09:06] My respect for mothers who will immediately believe their child

[01:09:11] and swoop in is it can never be articulated ever.

[01:09:15] Yes, so we've had a couple cases

[01:09:17] where I remember one particular

[01:09:21] where the young lady texted her mom.

[01:09:24] My stepdad is making me uncomfortable

[01:09:27] and he's trying to come in the bathroom with me.

[01:09:29] And that woman was on her way to work.

[01:09:30] And when I say she texted her daughter back,

[01:09:32] pulled on and she was back home,

[01:09:35] snatching that man out of her house.

[01:09:38] There was zero question.

[01:09:39] And when I asked her, I said, did you believe your daughter?

[01:09:41] I had no doubt.

[01:09:42] No doubt.

[01:09:43] She immediately, no question.

[01:09:46] What was happening?

[01:09:47] She didn't ask her anymore, quite like, what do you mean?

[01:09:49] She's like, I'm on my way.

[01:09:50] And she got right back home and was there for her daughter.

[01:09:53] And we see that just as much as we see,

[01:09:56] I don't, not believing them or the family,

[01:10:00] five for hating.

[01:10:02] That's better.

[01:10:03] Like the fact that you see it as much

[01:10:05] that is so much better than it was 10 years ago

[01:10:07] to when years ago.

[01:10:08] When I first started doing this work 20 years ago,

[01:10:12] I was like, in my entire support group of women,

[01:10:15] no one had a family member who believed them

[01:10:18] or took it seriously.

[01:10:20] Now we have, we have,

[01:10:24] and I'm hoping maybe because there's been so much education,

[01:10:27] so many people being brave enough to speak out

[01:10:29] and say this happened to me.

[01:10:31] And this is what made it better for me

[01:10:33] or I reported it and nobody believed me.

[01:10:36] And I shut down because of that,

[01:10:39] I think the first rule is we always believe our survivors

[01:10:42] until we see something that tells us not to.

[01:10:45] And I'm not saying that there's not coaching

[01:10:50] or false reports that happen occasionally,

[01:10:53] but the number is so much less than anybody ever makes it out to be.

[01:10:58] When I say anybody makes it out to be,

[01:10:59] I mean defense attorneys.

[01:11:01] Yeah, it's statistically, it's three to seven percent.

[01:11:06] Our false, yeah.

[01:11:09] And being that sexual assault is already one of the most

[01:11:12] under reported crimes ever.

[01:11:15] So when you take 3% of what's reported as being false,

[01:11:20] it is a very, very,

[01:11:22] very, minuscule number that happens.

[01:11:24] Yeah, it just is.

[01:11:25] And usually what you'll see is the potential more for coaching

[01:11:30] of a child, by a parent or somebody with a vested interest.

[01:11:36] That's still fits in that 3%.

[01:11:38] And that's by the way why we have these safeguards in place

[01:11:41] of our investigators are involved

[01:11:43] and the forensic interview that's done through the child advocacy center

[01:11:47] is a specific format that is followed

[01:11:51] by our forensic interviewers that is non-leading,

[01:11:54] non-threatening, and an attempt to get to exactly what happened

[01:11:59] in the child's own words and a safe environment.

[01:12:02] And it's nobody putting any images or thoughts or concepts

[01:12:05] in their head is allowing them to bring it forward

[01:12:08] in this manner which is considered best practice.

[01:12:12] And then being able to revisit that interview, if need be.

[01:12:15] So we do have candid conversations,

[01:12:18] the interviewers and law enforcement

[01:12:20] and the prosecutors who are involved saying,

[01:12:22] okay, we call it a disclosure.

[01:12:25] We have a good disclosure or did we not have a disclosure?

[01:12:28] And we've had children walking like nothing happened.

[01:12:31] No, there was no bad touch.

[01:12:32] I'm good.

[01:12:33] Nothing happened.

[01:12:35] And we will make sure and we will watch these interviews

[01:12:39] and it's not that the child has been told to recant.

[01:12:42] But hey they may have been witnessed

[01:12:45] to some other child being assaulted.

[01:12:47] They may have been present when other child was assaulted

[01:12:49] or they may be a misunderstanding.

[01:12:51] I mean, I don't know you know all about this through your work.

[01:12:56] But if we have a child that's hyper-sexualized,

[01:13:00] we will, and by we I mean law enforcement

[01:13:03] or the Department of Human Resources

[01:13:05] or somebody who is a caregiver

[01:13:07] or mandatory reporter for that child

[01:13:09] may end up coming forward and saying listen,

[01:13:11] we've got this child that's acting out sexually

[01:13:13] at a completely inappropriate way based on their age.

[01:13:16] We will bring them in for our friends again interview.

[01:13:19] They'll be connecting to make sure

[01:13:20] because if a child is acting over sexually

[01:13:24] that is a indicator of the potential for abuse

[01:13:27] or that there has been abuse.

[01:13:28] Or maybe they're just really, really advanced in hormonal

[01:13:31] and if pick something up from a big brother or sister,

[01:13:33] we don't know will conduct an interview

[01:13:36] and make sure and then what ends up happening

[01:13:38] is sometimes it's just hey this kid

[01:13:41] they stayed up late one night

[01:13:42] and watch cinema actually their older brother

[01:13:43] and they learned a word that they didn't know before

[01:13:46] and they are or learned something they didn't know before

[01:13:48] and they're gonna tell the entire fourth grade about it.

[01:13:52] It was kind of an Oculus, it's perfectly innocent given that

[01:13:56] that standard or we have a child who has been victimized

[01:13:59] and sexually assaulted

[01:14:00] and this is the only way they know how to respond

[01:14:03] to it and act out.

[01:14:04] So oh my god, I just real it.

[01:14:10] Oh, this happened sometimes.

[01:14:14] We'll talk about something and then she just has a...

[01:14:17] I am not that bad.

[01:14:19] And they got mad at me for it.

[01:14:22] Okay, so I never realized until those moments

[01:14:26] that that's the hyper-sexualization.

[01:14:30] So in the midst of being sexually assaulted

[01:14:33] when we would kiss mom and dad good night on the cheek

[01:14:36] before a bet that was just part of the routine

[01:14:39] but apparently my kiss on their cheek lasted too long

[01:14:47] because of let's see how she'll explain this delicately.

[01:14:50] Things that were happening to me when I was being assaulted.

[01:14:53] I started associating it with like,

[01:14:55] well this is the timing or this is how you do it.

[01:14:58] Keep in mind I was like four or five.

[01:15:00] Right.

[01:15:03] And later Chris told me my mom, Chris told me

[01:15:06] that she noticed I was doing that

[01:15:08] so she knew something must have been going on

[01:15:10] because how would I have known something

[01:15:11] so like I was disgusting or bad or evil for that

[01:15:16] and I was just like kissing my parents

[01:15:18] on the cheek apparently too long.

[01:15:23] Huh.

[01:15:25] So if they issue you that, why didn't she?

[01:15:28] Well we know she's Chris but like I didn't she ask me

[01:15:31] if I was okay instead of just being mad at me.

[01:15:37] Okay anyways that was my crazy realization

[01:15:41] that I just said fun.

[01:15:45] And that's why we check on those kids

[01:15:49] if you look at it and well there's just the worst

[01:15:52] breaking Chris or yeah they are.

[01:15:55] I told you I love the fact that you refer to them

[01:15:57] as breaking Chris or not or by a moment dad

[01:16:00] because they don't deserve,

[01:16:03] they don't deserve that title.

[01:16:05] No they do not.

[01:16:07] Can imagine being mad at a kid for that

[01:16:10] when Blake you realize something happened to them

[01:16:14] that convoluted their understanding of something

[01:16:16] so then you're mad at them instead of like

[01:16:18] dying if necessary to save them

[01:16:21] is their child protecting them from that thing

[01:16:24] that made you think that that was the way to act.

[01:16:27] Mm-hmm.

[01:16:30] Good Lord.

[01:16:31] Well this is fun.

[01:16:33] I'll have great stuff to talk about

[01:16:35] and therapy next week.

[01:16:36] Okay.

[01:16:40] So I got one more question for you.

[01:16:46] What are your big takeaways

[01:16:49] in your career so far?

[01:16:51] So we talked about this before

[01:16:53] and this is the one that gets me to but

[01:16:56] one of the biggest things

[01:16:58] I tell every survivor that I prep for court this.

[01:17:03] I have never had a survivor regret testifying

[01:17:08] and I know that it sounds,

[01:17:10] try it or it sounds maybe

[01:17:15] sunshine and roses but

[01:17:17] when they walk into court they're taking their power back.

[01:17:21] And I tell them that you are in control

[01:17:24] and you are telling your story

[01:17:27] it's your chance to be heard

[01:17:29] and I've never had a survivor regret testifying

[01:17:33] no matter what happened with their case.

[01:17:35] Whether it was a not guilty verdict,

[01:17:37] a guilty verdict, a hungry guilty on lesser included

[01:17:42] offenses, it doesn't matter.

[01:17:44] They had their opportunity to tell

[01:17:47] everybody what that person did

[01:17:50] and why they should be thought of as a horrible human being

[01:17:56] and even if we've had a not guilty

[01:17:58] we've had jurors tell us afterwards.

[01:18:03] We know they did something,

[01:18:05] we know there are bad person,

[01:18:07] we just didn't feel like it was beyond a reasonable doubt

[01:18:12] which is a whole thing for us as prosecutors when we hear that.

[01:18:17] But they, me's they believed are victim on some level.

[01:18:20] Our survivor who took the stand,

[01:18:22] they believed that something happened

[01:18:25] and I go back and tell them that,

[01:18:27] hey, they believed you.

[01:18:29] They believed you or like a someone

[01:18:30] that come back with a lesser included offense.

[01:18:32] You understand that means they believe

[01:18:34] what you're telling them.

[01:18:36] For whatever reason they felt like it was this crime

[01:18:38] and not this crime but they believed you

[01:18:41] and you need to carry that with you every single day

[01:18:44] that you walked in this courtroom and told 12 people

[01:18:48] what happened and they said yep, that's exactly,

[01:18:50] we believe you.

[01:18:51] Nobody doubted you, nobody questioned you,

[01:18:54] nobody was concerned that you weren't telling the truth

[01:18:56] they believed you and that's really important

[01:18:58] to make sure that they feel that way in my opinion

[01:19:01] but they've all told us when we've asked them

[01:19:03] that they felt better coming in after they've told their story

[01:19:06] that they didn't regret it one time.

[01:19:09] And then it's uncomfortable and I think you were talking

[01:19:13] about this one in the last episode that I listened to him

[01:19:16] and about talking to survivors about what happened

[01:19:19] and I know it can be scary for people.

[01:19:23] You don't want to say the wrong thing,

[01:19:24] you don't want to make a mistake,

[01:19:26] you don't want to upset them,

[01:19:27] you don't want to retraumatize them

[01:19:28] and those are all valid feelings.

[01:19:31] But if you offer an opportunity to listen to them

[01:19:35] and they take it, don't be afraid to talk about it.

[01:19:38] Exactly.

[01:19:39] And I use the words and I tell my survivors this

[01:19:45] when I talk to them, we're not going to minimize this.

[01:19:49] We are never going to sugarcoat this.

[01:19:51] If he raped you, we're going to talk about it.

[01:19:53] He raped you.

[01:19:54] The day you were raped, what happened?

[01:19:57] It wasn't the day of the event.

[01:19:58] It wasn't the day of the incident.

[01:20:00] It wasn't the night that something bad happened.

[01:20:02] The night he raped you, tell me what happened.

[01:20:06] The night he sexually assaulted you or saw to my issue,

[01:20:10] tell me what happened because we're not going to let

[01:20:14] that offender hide behind sweet colorful words.

[01:20:18] What happened was a violent sexual assault

[01:20:21] and we're going to call it what it is

[01:20:23] and we're going to take the power from that word

[01:20:25] from being dirty and ugly

[01:20:27] and make it dirty and ugly for the offender not to survive.

[01:20:30] Exactly.

[01:20:31] So we're going to say exactly what happened.

[01:20:32] We're going to talk about it.

[01:20:33] We're going to make him look like the asshole that he is.

[01:20:37] And I know I keep saying he, status, and you know

[01:20:40] the majority of offenders are he's.

[01:20:42] So that's just the universal word I'm always going to use.

[01:20:45] But we're going to make that offender look like the asshole

[01:20:47] he is for the things he did to you.

[01:20:49] And we're not going to shrink away from that at all.

[01:20:52] So those are my two big takeaways from dealing with these types

[01:20:56] of cases.

[01:20:57] Yeah.

[01:20:58] And you know back to what you said at the beginning

[01:20:59] about using the legal terminology like victim versus survivor.

[01:21:04] I think it's so interesting because it depends on who you're

[01:21:09] talking to if victim or survivor is more empowering.

[01:21:13] I feel like it's almost more empowering

[01:21:16] to the survivor to call them a victim

[01:21:19] to certain demographics.

[01:21:20] Like for instance, their friends and family

[01:21:23] who are maybe not taking this as seriously

[01:21:25] as they need to or to the offender.

[01:21:29] I think sometimes people need to be reminded

[01:21:32] that their loved one was a victim of a violent crime.

[01:21:37] And so while I will usually use the word survivor

[01:21:40] when talking to survivors,

[01:21:41] I will usually use the word victim

[01:21:43] when talking to everyone else

[01:21:44] because I feel like they need to be reminded

[01:21:47] that this person suffered a crime

[01:21:50] and that we can't just hide behind pretty words.

[01:21:53] Like yeah, they're going to survive

[01:21:55] and you know hopefully every new listen to them.

[01:21:57] My heart knows my heart about how healing is possible.

[01:22:00] But their friends and family sometimes need to remember

[01:22:04] that we're not there yet.

[01:22:06] And it's not all sunshine and rainbows yet.

[01:22:08] And they need to support this person

[01:22:11] through a very difficult time.

[01:22:13] I think wording is so important

[01:22:16] around these issues.

[01:22:17] I love how much thought and effort

[01:22:19] and care you and your whole district,

[01:22:22] your jurisdiction, your team put into it.

[01:22:24] I just, I think it's incredible.

[01:22:26] And I hope that people who are listening

[01:22:29] are inspired to do better,

[01:22:31] even if they aren't part of the judicial system

[01:22:35] or law enforcement or anything.

[01:22:37] I hope that they learned and they learn

[01:22:41] that their words matter

[01:22:42] and also that there's hope,

[01:22:44] there are people who care

[01:22:46] and if something horrific happens,

[01:22:48] there are resources in there.

[01:22:50] People who put as much thought effort and care

[01:22:53] into it as you do.

[01:22:54] I fucking love you.

[01:22:56] So, I believe you guys, everything you do.

[01:22:59] I think you're amazing for being so brave to tell

[01:23:01] everybody what you went through.

[01:23:04] The shit show of your family and what they did

[01:23:06] and being brave enough to tell the world

[01:23:09] who wants to listen.

[01:23:10] Education is the best thing we can do

[01:23:12] to get people to understand what it's like

[01:23:17] for anybody who's been touched by something like this

[01:23:20] and how you work so hard to be there for Amanda

[01:23:23] and help get this out.

[01:23:26] Anytime, I tell them all the time

[01:23:28] anytime I can pull my soapbox out to the middle of a room

[01:23:29] and be like, this is how we're going to treat our victims.

[01:23:33] This is what we're gonna do.

[01:23:35] This is what being a mandatory reporter means

[01:23:36] your episode on mandatory reporter like,

[01:23:38] yes, say it louder please.

[01:23:39] Oh, yes.

[01:23:41] Please.

[01:23:43] I don't know how many times I've done

[01:23:44] like you are a mandatory reporter.

[01:23:45] I am a mandatory reporter.

[01:23:48] If you think you're a mandatory reporter,

[01:23:50] you're a mandatory reporter.

[01:23:51] Report.

[01:23:52] Report.

[01:23:53] How do you paddle please?

[01:23:55] Taddle.

[01:23:57] But you're right.

[01:23:58] And if anybody wants to do anything,

[01:24:00] please seek out your angel houses.

[01:24:02] They're all over or your house of roofs

[01:24:04] because we have victims of domestic violence

[01:24:07] and sexual abuse who are going to those

[01:24:10] and your child advocacy centers.

[01:24:11] They're all over the United States

[01:24:14] and they love volunteers.

[01:24:15] They desperately need them too.

[01:24:17] They desperately need them

[01:24:18] and one of the wonderful things I believe

[01:24:20] most every child advocacy center does is,

[01:24:24] they have snacks and a closet.

[01:24:28] I know ours does for kids who are there.

[01:24:30] They have a closet of needed hygiene products

[01:24:35] and clothes.

[01:24:37] If somebody and a family needs to go to court

[01:24:40] and they need clothes to wear,

[01:24:42] we have things in our,

[01:24:44] we call it Henry's closet.

[01:24:45] Everything's with Henry.

[01:24:46] Henry's the best.

[01:24:47] He just he does all these things.

[01:24:48] He does even know he does.

[01:24:49] But we have clothes there for them to go to court.

[01:24:53] If they need them food,

[01:24:56] we have diapers, formula, all of the kinds of things

[01:25:01] that the family, the whole family may need,

[01:25:03] but even the survivor may need to get through that process.

[01:25:08] And it makes me that they're properly prepared for court

[01:25:12] and they have coloring books

[01:25:14] that they use about like for our little kids

[01:25:16] about how like here's what's gonna happen in court.

[01:25:18] Here's who other people are.

[01:25:20] They do a whole court process about,

[01:25:23] as a matter of fact we're having a meeting next week

[01:25:26] with anybody who has been to the advocacy center

[01:25:29] who has questions and all of the different disciplines

[01:25:32] from the multi-disciplinary team

[01:25:33] will be there to answer questions.

[01:25:34] So if you can volunteer just to help set up something like that

[01:25:38] or provide refreshments so that people will come

[01:25:41] and be able to have a safe place to talk

[01:25:44] about these things, it makes all the difference.

[01:25:47] And your point about clothes for court too,

[01:25:52] as you're going through your closet

[01:25:55] if you have business attire that you were gonna give

[01:25:58] to goodwill, maybe contact your local crisis center.

[01:26:03] And especially if you're like,

[01:26:05] so I'm a tall woman, I'm almost six feet tall.

[01:26:07] You know how hard it is to find pants that are long enough

[01:26:10] and stuff.

[01:26:11] So if you're in one of those kind of unique body demographics,

[01:26:15] then definitely consider donating

[01:26:17] because there are people who mean that,

[01:26:21] who can't afford to go buy a suit for court.

[01:26:24] And yeah, I hadn't, I had to brought that up.

[01:26:27] I hadn't even thought of donating

[01:26:30] like specific types of clothes to organizations like that.

[01:26:36] Yeah, this is all good stuff.

[01:26:37] Is there anything else you want folks

[01:26:39] to know that we haven't talked about yet in this episode?

[01:26:43] Just, if somebody has the courage to call out to you

[01:26:49] as that they've had something bad happen to them,

[01:26:53] that they've been the victim of right

[01:26:54] or saw to me or sexual abuse,

[01:26:56] or child abuse, or abuse, any kind of abuse.

[01:26:59] Be there for them.

[01:27:01] Believe them first.

[01:27:03] Always, I just always say,

[01:27:05] I always believe my victim.

[01:27:08] Until I have irrefutable proof otherwise,

[01:27:10] I always believe my victim.

[01:27:13] And I don't care how crazy the story sounds.

[01:27:15] I don't care how fanciable the story sounds.

[01:27:18] It's true until we prove otherwise.

[01:27:22] And if they've trusted you,

[01:27:24] if you're their trusted person,

[01:27:25] if you're their safe place,

[01:27:28] take that seriously.

[01:27:29] That's a responsibility that is so important

[01:27:32] to carry like it is a responsibility

[01:27:36] and get them help, get them to someplace safe.

[01:27:39] And to anybody who's in a position to help,

[01:27:44] I always say this to the first question,

[01:27:46] I get when law enforcement calls us about the question like,

[01:27:49] hey, I have had this happen too soon.

[01:27:51] So what do I do?

[01:27:53] I think your first question should always be,

[01:27:54] are they safe?

[01:27:56] Are they in a safe place?

[01:27:58] Yes.

[01:27:58] We can do a million things,

[01:28:01] but if we've lost that victim

[01:28:03] because of our failings for them,

[01:28:07] we can't do anything.

[01:28:08] So we always start from let's get our person,

[01:28:11] our victim, our survivor to a safe location

[01:28:14] and we can regroup and do a whole lot from there.

[01:28:17] Yeah.

[01:28:18] So I was like I said,

[01:28:19] the first question I'm always gonna ask is,

[01:28:21] is that person safe?

[01:28:23] And now we'll make some educated decisions

[01:28:25] about everything else.

[01:28:27] And that may come in the slide today.

[01:28:30] Well, thanks so much for joining us.

[01:28:32] We will definitely put links into the description

[01:28:34] for all these wonderful organizations

[01:28:37] and we're still working on putting

[01:28:40] all the resources on the websites.

[01:28:41] So that's still coming,

[01:28:43] but Jennifer, thanks so much for coming

[01:28:46] and sharing your world with us

[01:28:48] and what it's like being on that end of the fence.

[01:28:52] You sent some photos.

[01:28:54] I can share those on social media as well

[01:28:56] or a wall of dogs and those.

[01:28:58] Oh, dogs.

[01:28:59] Yeah, I would love to share that with our listeners.

[01:29:03] Thank you so much again for everything you do,

[01:29:06] for how much you care.

[01:29:07] I wish you had been the person who prosecuted my case.

[01:29:12] I'm glad that so many others or rappers have you,

[01:29:15] have you in their life and in their corner.

[01:29:18] Thank you so much.

[01:29:19] Thank you for giving me an opportunity

[01:29:20] to work with you to educate.

[01:29:23] I love it.

[01:29:24] I love it.

[01:29:26] All right, well, we will be back next week.

[01:29:28] Stay tuned.

[01:29:30] Thanks for listening to another episode

[01:29:31] of The Cult I Left Behind.

[01:29:33] Until next time, don't join a cult.

[01:29:36] If you enjoyed this podcast,

[01:29:38] please like, share and subscribe

[01:29:40] and we will catch you on the next episode.