45 - Applying Levels of Friendship to Dating

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult with you might know from the dugger family

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together

[00:00:30] All right, welcome back to the next episode that is about courtship some way somehow but I don't know what Amanda's got left first Here's over here. I didn't expect the courtship to be No, this is this is like one of the biggest things about the IBLP Okay, yeah

[00:00:50] It's like up there with the seven basic principles Hmm So what if you're talking about today? Applying levels of friendship to dating. Oh, so the levels of friendship levels of friendship are back

[00:01:04] So I figured first we should define the levels of friendship and then we'll go back through them and talk about how they apply to dating And then we can talk about the four dating decisions

[00:01:16] And then I think we need to stop again because by then I'll be out of emotional energy but also The the next segment on courtship is like very complicated and long and horrifying Okay, so that can be its own thing. So did you get some of this from

[00:01:34] Listener comments because I know we talked about levels of friendships before and then we have a bunch of people sent it I thank you everyone for sending that I actually found it shortly after the episode where we said

[00:01:46] We didn't know what it was and then a bunch of listeners also sent it So thank you everybody. We are now going to go into the levels of friendships So that we can then talk about how they apply to

[00:02:00] Courtship not gonna lie. I thought the levels of friendship was literally just a friends thing and it had nothing to do with courtship I think there's an opportunity to convolut it That's believed though God there did it Well that part isn't surprised

[00:02:17] Guess I made for a while right today. Well, yeah So we have to start with the basic seminar and I actually found a worksheet that someone else Don't know who they filled it out and uploaded it onto the World Wide Web

[00:02:31] So I'm I'm trying to decipher their writing here But we have four levels of friendship acquaintance casual friends close friendship and intimate friendship These are like very you know complex situations and concepts because you know we go from acquaintance to intimate friends like who would have thought

[00:03:02] Okay, I don't even know what to say So with acquaintance Here's what this person has written in on this basic seminar worksheet. So it has three columns so level of friendship is column one column two is freedoms and characteristics Mm-hmm, and then column three is responsibilities

[00:03:22] So you have your level of friendship you have what you get to do in that level and then you have your responsibilities in that level Okay, so we got a whole matrix for this. Oh, yeah. Yeah

[00:03:31] And I have to post that up for people to see we have we have to make this complicated. This is a very simple thing like human connection But we have to make it complicated because it's a cool and there need to be more rules To follow of course

[00:03:46] So level one we've got acquaintance Here's what you can do a occasional contact general questions about public information Your responsibilities One divine encounter. I'm not sure how that's a responsibility like are you just supposed to Divinely intuit that you are intended to encounter this person?

[00:04:11] I'm not sure, but that's a responsibility Divine encounter in quotes because Bill got there two Develop general questions for children youth and adults So you can't just go out into the world and like be a kind

[00:04:25] Person who's just like genuinely interested in those around you. You have to go forth into the world with questions Developed specifically for making this divine encounter with children youth and adults So it has to be very prescriptive, yeah, which will also make a very awkward of course

[00:04:48] In case you needed to like advertise that you're part of a cult Because that's you know a real great way to do it being weird and awkward and asking strange questions because you know High-end and person we are now casual acquaintances because of a divine encounter that somehow

[00:05:05] I don't know but also it happened and here are the questions I have specifically developed for you, but wait. I didn't develop them my cult did Which will get into in next episode. It's horrific Okay, so so then we have level of friendship number two

[00:05:20] Which is casual friendships and the person wrote soul In parentheses under that which which seems a little intense for a casual friendship not sure why that's the soul level yet, but what else? Then what you can do is Determine their interests and do activities together

[00:05:43] You can you can learn specific information opinions and goals You can't ask in a quaintance their goals in life that that would not be okay But you can ask a casual friend their goals in life take notes listeners

[00:05:56] This is gonna get even more complicated and you obviously need to be doing this if you want to be holy Okay, then your responsibilities in this phase of a casual friendship this level You have to identify positive character qualities

[00:06:14] Hmm the character qualities are back. Uh-huh, and you can ask more specific questions Don't ask acquaintances specific questions and these are all predefined by the cult They didn't like hand these aren't their answers to the questions well

[00:06:31] As we will find out in the next next episode when it comes to courtship There are incredibly specific questions like pages and pages of lists of questions for these phases But this one I cannot I cannot understand what the person wrote under identify positive character qualities

[00:06:51] something about how their character points to Christ or something Okay, yeah Okay, so those are your first two levels of friendship you've got acquaintance and casual friendship Okay, then we go on to number three Which is close friendship Because whoever what if thought that comes next?

[00:07:14] Okay, and then under this one it says In parentheses spirit involved So we're getting like real intense now. Okay, okay What you can do in this level of friendship is is find out common life goals and You can like do projects together

[00:07:37] Based on Hebrews 10 24 so when it says spirit involved does that mean That these are the close friends are only ones that like God has led you to be a close friend with like you have to get some sort of permission for them

[00:07:53] I will I wonder if that's if that goes back to the divine encounter thing Like if you're paying attention to God like a good cult person Then you're going to know when you make an acquaintance that this person can develop into a

[00:08:08] casual friend than a close friend than an intimate friend I don't see ejection points for like not a godly cult person We although I think that comes up and we'll talk about next week As it pertains to courtship, okay. Yeah

[00:08:26] All right, so so yeah, you can you can do projects together and you can discuss common life goals as close friends and then your responsibilities in a close friendship is to visualize achievement And explain meaning of their name like the meaning of their name where you know

[00:08:48] Yeah, those weird things are like Kyle means Amanda means worthy of love. Yeah, mm-hmm So you can only discuss the meaning of your name with a close friend Yes As if that's not public knowledge already there aren't 500 books at Barnes and Noble right this exact thing right

[00:09:11] But you best have one of those Barnes and Noble books at your home so that by the time you become close friends You can look up the meaning of their name and explain it to them. So did you ever do this? Of course I did

[00:09:22] I knew every person in my life who was close to me growing up I I knew the meaning of their name and you only discussed it with them Um, I don't think so I think I would talk about it like

[00:09:38] Probably it was holy conversation Kyle it was approved topic of conversation It sounds right when did you talk to your friends about video games no those were bicycles Bikes were okay because they were you know out in nature video games were going to rot your brain

[00:10:00] I don't think that was just the cult but Oh God the cult had a whole other thing on computer games and you know fun and how frivolous that was in terms of using your time for God

[00:10:14] You would not have survived it. The whole would have thought you were terrible person. We'll say that over to other day Okay, oh and then you can design projects Close friends You better not be making out projects with acquaintances and casual friends people

[00:10:30] Same that for close friendship feel like little kids make friends with like anybody or some of them are like the The extraverted kids will you know meet some random kid at the playground and next thing

[00:10:42] You know they're like off building a sand castle together with a project that they like We're very unwise and move to close friendship far too quickly Not take time to discern this person's character and determine if it was a divine encounter

[00:10:56] Then she would be fell up into a closer, you know Relations hmm So so then we get to our final level of friendship which is intimate friendship which has fellowship In parentheses So we go from like soul to spirit to fellowship. I'm confused that feels a little backwards

[00:11:19] But but what you are allowed to do in this level is you can be committed to character development and you can correct the other person's blind spots Then you have responsibilities here. You have to have honest discretion and

[00:11:37] Positive direction I love how the this kind of reminds me of the military in a lot of ways They're like what are powerful words that we can put together and it'll sound really cool and important

[00:11:49] Yes, does it make sense? Does it matter? No does it sound cool? Yes press forward Right to sleep like honest discretion Impositive direction I mean those sound all inspirational and ship only really stopping think of it like honest

[00:12:08] Discussion I feel like discretion can be a real stand alone there like I don't These sounds like very complex concepts for children too. No, no This is for the adults. This is the base seminar. Okay. Yeah. This is the basic seminar

[00:12:25] Well you have to be 12 or older because it's 12 You're basically an adult according to Bill Gothard because adolescent doesn't exist I was I was gonna phrase that that sounds like a very complicated concept for 12 So it's funny you picked 12. Well that is his age. Yeah, yeah

[00:12:46] Probably so he could justify his sexual involvement with you know 14 and 15 year olds Geez, okay So those are the levels of friendship. So now we have to go to the advanced seminar It was a track it is this four same 12 12 and up

[00:13:06] But you have to go through the basic seminar first. So this is from research and principles of life Advanced seminar textbook, okay How to apply principles to friendship and engagement? Okay, so then we have Bible quotes and then it goes into applying levels of friendship to dating

[00:13:28] Which means According eventually an IBOP so level one acquaintance You're your freedoms again, like what you're allowed to do and then your responsibilities We have the same columns. So level one acquaintance questions You can ask questions as a as an acquaintance But if questions are too nosy

[00:13:52] Deeper friendship is not earned Okay, so note appropriate questions earned the privilege to deepen friendships It makes this sound like you can control this and also when we get into the responsibilities of an acquaintance

[00:14:15] We have two of them four dating decisions which we're gonna go over today and then Questions on 10 Unchangeables that is part of the responsibilities for level one acquaintance Where you are not allowed to ask questions that are too nosy or deeper friendship will not be earned

[00:14:33] Next week when we talk about questions on the ten-unchangeables We'll just be rolling on the floor laughing because it starts out like so fucking nosy But but it's okay because Bill wrote the questions So then they're not too nosy, but they're so nosy Okay

[00:14:51] The ten-unchangeables was one of the weird ones for me. So I look forward to getting to that next week the ten-unchangeables in courtship It's so bad So that's level one acquaintance You can ask questions but not too nosy and you have to go through the four dating decisions

[00:15:10] And then the questions on the ten-unchangeables We're gonna talk about ten-unchangeables next week. We're gonna wrap up this episode with four dating decisions So we're gonna put a pin in that and we'll come back to it. Okay casual friendship

[00:15:24] You can do activities with a casual friend, but if activities are too pushy Deeper friendship is not earned Proper activities establish the basis to deepen friendships So you can do things together, but don't be pushy about it. I guess okay, so so your responsibilities

[00:15:43] Under casual friendship as it pertains to courtship You can do family activities and that is all That is all Like that continues forever Yes And here's why you can do family activities You enjoy protection You discern character You establish boundaries

[00:16:05] Definition of a date which is never explained in this chart, but maybe we'll make all that date Let boy initiate course gotta keep the patriarchy alive and wild Kyle Okay, so then we go into a close friendship where you are allowed to have fellowship now

[00:16:25] This is this is where you enter the fellowship phrase phase of The levels of friendship when your close friends. So What you are allowed your freedoms you can standards If standards are too dangerous deeper friendship is not earned. I don't understand how that's a freedom

[00:16:46] I feel like they're just putting shit in columns again to like fill the blocks So your freedoms what you're allowed to do standards I feel like standards would have been like number one, but no They're number three under close friendship level. So standards if standards are too dangerous

[00:17:07] Deeper friendship is not earned godly standards allowed deeper friendship and then your responsibilities are godly projects Avoid appearance of evil and purpose for engagement So much structure So you can go do projects together, but they have to be godly

[00:17:29] You have to avoid the appearance of evil. So absolutely knowing and thank you like kiss held hands had sex Talked about love developed feelings for each other nothing and this is close friends Yeah, which is the third level yeah, and at this point level you still you can't

[00:17:46] No nothing Roman no no romance, but you have to decide you're gonna get engaged in this level Okay Can we do it episode after next week where we talk about the the horrible list of no see pushy questions that totally

[00:18:05] Go against everything this chart is saying after that can we talk about like how we dated and also My experience dating post divorce doing not courtship and it was very Yes Guys or Oh

[00:18:27] Time I tried asking a guy out for the first time in my life. I definitely violated level two let boy initiate Is that intentional never mind don't answer that look at the back God, I still be sleep over that whole experience anyways

[00:18:46] Okay, so so finally in the level's a friendship for dating or courtship you finally have number four which is intimate friendship You are allowed to This does not make sense it just as character and I don't understand why that's there

[00:19:12] But character engagement marriage that's what you're allowed to do as intimate friends and then oh my god Responsibilities marriage timing emotional release What established chain of council emotional release? This is the whole thing like where you can't give your heart away

[00:19:37] Yeah, so you have to hold on to that you have to keep it in there I don't know how many times I was told this growing up like you have to maintain control of your emotions

[00:19:47] Guard your heart guard your heart guard your heart because you can't let your heart go you can't let your emotions go until you know You're gonna marry this person

[00:19:54] So you have to have timing so that the emotional release occurs at the proper level of friendship again with the pressure oh, yeah, like the pressure No fun shall be had by any Have any emotional release until you get married and then all the pressure

[00:20:14] Leading up to that mm-hmm So real quick We're gonna talk about the the four dating decisions So this is what has to happen under level one of Quintance Okay, one of your responsibilities is to go through the four dating decisions

[00:20:30] But oh wait this only applies if you are female And you have to have this conversation with your father oh no That's not where I thought this was going okay, so four decisions between fathers and daughters

[00:20:44] And y'all this comes right out of the advanced seminar textbook to ensure the fullest possible success in friendships Which could lead to marriage a father and daughter should discuss and make the following commitments Commitments so we've somehow gone from decisions to commitments

[00:21:02] Just to put a little more pressure on the whole situation One I want God's best concerning marriage This commitment means that you are never willing to lower standards even if it means losing dates It means you are trusting God for your happiness whether single or married

[00:21:21] Okay, so you gotta want God's best. That's that's commitment number one two I purpose to send potential dates to father for approval Of course, okay it gets worse There are many important benefits in making this commitment here are some of them

[00:21:40] A you increased his appreciation of you what a fellow works for here appreciates more Two you decrease temptation for him to morally mistreat you Because again you are responsible for everything as a female Okay, see you prove that your father loves you

[00:22:02] What you prove that your father loves you? Yes by you telling him that Hey This boy talked to me. No you prove to the boy that your father loves you because you're sending the boy to your dad Okay Mm-hmm D you give a man

[00:22:27] Meaning your father you give a man an opportunity to evaluate the motives of the fellow Oh, he's a fellow now. Yes. That's how bill referred fellows and girls Interesting but he would say it fella of course

[00:22:45] And E you put the fellow in the right relationship with your authority Okay, should I have done all this to you Kyle? I would have found a conical Happening here He can assure you the people on whom I tried these tactics did not find a conical

[00:23:08] Found a very weird Well, they sure Okay, so then we have the third thing. I purpose to direct a fellow to father before discussing marriage with him full stop no comments on that one that's just it that stands alone is as number three number four

[00:23:26] I purpose the fellow must have eight essential qualities before considering marriage eight and they are essential One must have genuine salvation Because remember you can be saved the wrong way So genuine salvation two must accept himself. Don't worry

[00:23:50] We're gonna get into that so hard core in the next episode Three must be a man under authority Of course for must have a clear conscience But also he can't confess to you that he rapes his sisters until after your marriage

[00:24:05] So I'm not sure how he's supposed to have a clear conscience, but what abs? I didn't write this five must know how to yield rights Because he doesn't own you yet your dad does

[00:24:16] So he has no rights over you until your dad gives you a way to him at the altar Six must have moral freedom seven must know God's purpose for his life Yes, I have all of his shit together like all of it like an 80 year plan

[00:24:37] And be financially free and independent. Oh You know, he got just said that off the top of my head for number eight must have financial freedom It's like you Hard this before only a little bit So those are the four decisions But they're only between fathers and daughters

[00:24:59] There you go the levels of friendship and courtship according to the IBLP fold and Bogothard Amen And it's just gonna get worse from here Especially because you have to like we'll talk about this next week in the first phrase where you can't ask nosy questions

[00:25:18] We have to get into like at what age do people in your family die and And are there any genetic defects in your lineage and Where your parents expecting you to be a boy or a girl and how does that impact your perception of yourself? Wow

[00:25:37] Like I feel like you do win or you Don't don't say that people are gonna start recording video podcast I feel like if you went through and asked all these questions like oh they check like you know 64 out of the 89 checkboxes here, but you know there

[00:25:59] It twice removed had skin cancer so like you're out You would never find it he but if you're dating someone who is not of your same ethnic background or racial background You have to make sure that they have acceptance of their skin color. No, I remember that yeah

[00:26:20] It like the racism and the bullshit never ends with this Maybe you just love a person because you love them and you're attracted to them and it doesn't matter what They're racial or ethnic background is we could just try that but no, that's too simple

[00:26:36] That's just way too simple Yeah, you got a little bit of a simple All right well I don't support people follow your heart You know the bullshit Okay, like I could I'm like a whole other platform where I'm like do not try to completely logic relationships

[00:27:00] And I'm the first new had a color coded spreadsheet for dating for a while there after my divorce And I feel like when I just like go evolve the control stuff and actually followed my heart and what I wanted Things went a lot better

[00:27:14] Just just a thought just a thought put out there from you know Someone who did the whole thing perfectly the first time well not like cult perfect, but like good purity culture Christian perfect And that blew up All right, well

[00:27:31] We're gonna go with a shorter format this week. That is a crash course on the Levels of friendship and in courtship and in courtship Don't mess it up How could you I'm so prescriptive and in possible Yeah, so simple

[00:27:51] All right, we will continue this train wreck next week with more courtship in the cult Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind until next time

[00:28:02] Don't join a cult if you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode