[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult with you might know from the dugger family
[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together Alright, welcome back to the next episode
[00:00:35] I wish you could see the face, I mean it is making right now because we're gonna talk about When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one female cult survival to talk about the trauma that underpinned her entire young adulthood Which was Courtship
[00:00:57] I've been putting this off for like as long as we've had the podcast I started looking into it like last year So 2023 and then my last research files for this episode are dated like April 14, 2024 I've really been kicking this can down the road, Kyle I know you
[00:01:22] It's been yeah, we originally put together our list of episodes. This was on there It was a farting because it's a flagship IBLP cult concepts I'm not being coerced in doing this story. It was my idea mostly because we've got to like just start ripping this bandate off
[00:01:43] Because there's so much Like oh my gosh, there's courtship then versus how the IBLP website talks about it now versus like how it played out in my life versus like what I saw
[00:01:57] In the cult growing up and then there's all the commentary on the weirdness and all the crazy stories and then there's like All of the seminar teachings on how to have a perfect courtship so that you can be perfect before God
[00:02:16] Because perfection is not only possible. It's reasonable and then there's like all the different pieces of IBLP cult ideology that get mixed into it, including like racism and sexism and you know the patriarchy misogyny all that kind of stuff And also like cooking and sewing
[00:02:40] Like makes a really heavy appearance for women And then there's like the whole authority thing in the umbrella of protection and the father and authority and authority and being under authority And doing everything the authorities want even though you are an adult
[00:02:56] And then there's like purity culture and then there's like what they're just supposed to look like in the cult and then So it's complicated
[00:03:08] Yeah, oh and then the quiverful movement because like if you've courted perfectly and you have a perfect marriage then God's gonna start blessing you with children so like quiverful
[00:03:17] And then there's just like all my stories of trying to fucking like be an adult while having to also be a child Under authority As a 21 22 year old With the threat of like hell and
[00:03:34] And all of these things and a life long, you know, sentence of misery if I didn't do everything the way of a cult said I had to And I like all of the issues that created in my previous marriage because we like tried to do everything all perfect
[00:03:53] Which as it turns out doesn't really set you up for a great marriage Mm-hmm. Yeah, so there's just a lot to this and I feel like this is gonna be multiple episodes And we'll just talk till I run out of emotional energy which could be 15 minutes
[00:04:09] They could be like five more minutes who knows That was the main reason we haven't done this one yet Yeah, it's been like saving emotional energy I've been stuck pilot it so I can spend it all right now
[00:04:21] That's how we categorize we went through and like color coded everything because you know Amanda everything is color Coated how hard it is gonna be to talk about and this was the top list Yeah, I did just want to jump into this You know starting spot
[00:04:38] If I can make it through everything I have outlined for this episode we have so much ground to cover We're gonna talk about courtship then versus courtship now Then we're gonna talk about the advanced seminar textbook We're just gonna start like working through what it says about courtship
[00:04:53] So today hopefully we're gonna get to applying levels of friendship to dating Four decisions between fathers and daughters and how you use the ten on changeables to ask really knows in inappropriate questions during courtship So like we've got a lot of ground to cover
[00:05:09] I don't know if we're gonna get through all of this before I run out of seam And Because I've been like running away from this topic for the last however many months
[00:05:20] I don't I don't have this beautiful idea in my mind of how I want to enroll everything I have like this small little outline for what I maybe can get through today
[00:05:31] But we're gonna have to like I'm gonna remember stuff and we're gonna have to come back and talk about you know Like oh, yeah, this thing that I saw happened before my very eyes or happened to me
[00:05:42] Around the topic of courtship like this is probably just gonna kind of unfold in not the most organized way Because like I just it would take too much time and emotional energy to try to go back and put it all in perfect chronological order and perfectly categorize it
[00:06:03] I just don't have that in me. It's okay So courtship I started hearing about courtship like as a small child Because the age you made a courtship commitment and the cold was traditionally your 15th birthday
[00:06:21] Or at least in my family and my biological family it was your 15th birthday I don't know if that was like what the cold taught or if that was just what Rick and Chris arbitrarily decided But it was like a whole thing where there was a ceremony
[00:06:35] And it was you and both your parents And there was this big old document like a certificate from the cold that they could get That listed out the whole commitment and there was one for mail and one for female
[00:06:50] So like as a daughter I had a different one than a son would have Because men or leaders and women have to like think about Making the home Your face I mean one 15s really young
[00:07:07] Well, I think their idea was you got a catch and before they start having interest in the opposite sex But like I think at that point it's also too late So what was in these documents and what was like
[00:07:19] I can't I don't yeah, it was the same for everyone across the cold I don't have my nanny more I left that behind at Rick and Chris's house and when I moved out And I've tried I've like poked around online trying to find it
[00:07:32] But if you guys listeners if you have yours and you don't mind sending a picture of it to us I would like to read it so that people can see how dumb it is
[00:07:42] Or all like post it on social media or something or if you know where I can find it online I have not had success poking around for that I think that parents would like order this from the cold Because it was like a nice official paper
[00:07:56] I don't I don't think they printed it I feel like it was bigger than that like bigger than a standard science piece of paper So they got it from somewhere so you you're with your bio parents
[00:08:07] I was with my bio parents and then you know you read through the whole thing And you you commit to it like verbally and then you have to sign your name on it And then your father signs his name on it
[00:08:16] I don't think the mother signs because again like moms what do they good for absolutely nothing in the cold Other than having kids So Then in our family you are presented with your courtship commitment ring which you wore on your wedding ring finger Until you got engaged
[00:08:36] Then you're engagement ring replaced it or as a guy then you're wedding ring replaced it It was very confusing because there I was just like kid running around with this like ring on my wedding ring finger
[00:08:49] Mine was they didn't necessarily look like wedding rings mine was a band it was black hills gold it was really pretty And it had like a leaf pattern and I don't have it anymore I gave it away to someone
[00:09:06] But yeah, it was like a band that I wore like a wedding band but to signify that I was a virtuous and pure female Vgt. Interesting and I'm trying to remember in like normal Normal purity culture
[00:09:23] I feel like they call out a promise ring and it goes on the other hand Our promise rings so so we didn't do this our promise ring something you do to promise your gonna be pure or is it promise ring something
[00:09:36] Your significant other like the guy gives the girl It's a cell thing signifying. Okay, so it's like This is my purity ring. I'm gonna stay pure Okay, that's what I'm pretty sure goes on the opposite hand. Yeah, because I feel like it becomes confusing
[00:09:52] It is it is it is I got older like men didn't know what to do when they We talked to me and there I was with this you know ring on my wedding ring finger
[00:10:04] So then in our family we went out to dinner and I think my illustrious courtship commitment dinner was at the Olive Garden Oh fancy so fancy and it was a with-ricking Chris and at that dinner
[00:10:18] I had to confess to them every boy had ever had a crush on This I was expecting you to say this was like a dinner you went to once there was a commitment with a boy
[00:10:31] No, no, it was like between this is like your your birthday celebration confational Oh, geez. Yeah, and I had a crush on like three boys Maybe four and right and four if I will they had to know like if I was if I had a pure mind
[00:10:50] So having a crush means you don't have a pure mind right because you can't like anyone until you're engaged to them You can only have brother and sisterly affection
[00:11:01] For people of the opposite gender including the person you're dating and tell her unless you have parental consent to become engaged And then you can start to become emotionally invested in that person when you were engaged to them I feel like that is not humanly possible
[00:11:18] And they're just stuck their head in the same and like you're not going to actually have feelings exactly What they're actually saying is you're not going to express any feelings about the crush you had
[00:11:29] You're just going to act like nothing's happening and you're just going to be friends and treat each other like brothers and sisters And they're like internally you definitely are feeling something else But don't say that and don't feel that and don't feel that
[00:11:43] I'm doing that but then also when it comes time to do the courtship commitment You're going to have to let the cat out of the bag that just kidding So and so wasn't just my I didn't treat him like my brother I don't feel like he's my brother
[00:11:59] No, you definitely still treated them but if you were like if you had any like Like I don't know teenage butterfly feelings about a boy you're most certainly a horn Oh Jesus
[00:12:13] So yeah, I think there were like four guys that I'd had a crush on by the time I was 15 is that I'd normally like her endis? No Okay, so my ex
[00:12:24] Two guys from the cultureg and I think like one guy from the cold headquarters and of course being honest and truthful to a false I told Rick and Chris about all of it and Rick was like head in his hands
[00:12:38] Signing and moaning about just how awful I was so boy. Yeah, like at the all of Garden table like head in his hands like a man I'm sorry I just can't imagine like me doing that. You're like oh my god
[00:13:01] She likes somebody like my life is coming to an end. What have I raised to this child? Yeah, so when it came out in my 20s that I liked my ex
[00:13:14] Rick had an absolute temper tantrum storming around the house yelling throwing things and said that not only had I like reflected poorly on God in him I reflected poorly on my ancestry But you had already told him at this point that you had liked him
[00:13:30] Yeah, but I don't like it wasn't under parental blessing like I wasn't allowed to like him And I liked him still and I wanted to have a relationship with him and that was like what did he say? He it was it was I dishonored my ancestry
[00:13:53] Cool, like I don't even know I remember hearing that at the time of you like this is not out up like they don't care like half of them are dead
[00:14:03] Like they don't care if I like a boy maybe not feel dishonored because I like a boy and I'm a fully grown adult What happened when you told your grandparents like hey, I'm dating this person or they were thrilled
[00:14:18] Yeah, cuz my accent I had grown up together like they had known him for 10 years when we got married and And they all loved it So they were like oh my gosh, this is the best So yeah, they didn't line up at all dishonored your ancestors
[00:14:36] No, no, they were Do you think it ever occurred to them that like we're in this cult like your biological parents we're in this cult But their parents aren't in the cult and they're telling these stories about like dishonoring ancestry
[00:14:56] And so like do you think it ever occurred to them like the kids might be smart enough to know that Grandpa and grandma aren't in the cult. Oh, don't believe the same thing
[00:15:05] I don't know what of course we knew that my grandparents were incredibly vocal about how much they didn't agree with everything So Flyward is shouldn't have been allowed to see them Well, I mean there were times
[00:15:21] And we were given like very cookie cutter things to say to their blasts of the law They attended Catholic church. So oh my gosh might my Papa on Chris's side so her dad I didn't know growing up that Catholics fall under Christianity
[00:15:41] Because we had been told Catholicism was like devil worship It was it was Mary worship. It was idolatry like all of this horrible stuff So I kept distinguishing between Christians and Catholics as a kid and one time Papa was just so
[00:15:57] Exacuated just like rolled aside through this head You're like we're Christians too And I remember thinking like well, no, you're not but whatever Papa Stupid old man And I was in college before I learned that the rest of the world considers Catholics Christians
[00:16:20] Right, so you're going to seminary where they're definitely going to teach you all this stuff But you were allowed to go to seminary Well, I was I was wake on from Rick and Chris by the time I went to seminary in grad school Bible college
[00:16:35] It like properly defined Catholicism as part of Christianity But of course Catholicism was wrong and it was bad And they agreed that it was Mary worship which is idolatry So you know There's a reason I was allowed to attend that particular school
[00:16:56] It was it was pretty cold adjacent So oh gosh Sorry listeners. There's going to be a lot of little rabbit trails while I you know regroup and come back to the topic at hand So that was my 15th birthday That was my 15th birthday
[00:17:13] I guess I missed it. They do that on your birthday On on my birthday Wow That was my birthday Wow Yeah I did I did get a really pretty ring out of it And I got to be part of picking out the ring
[00:17:26] Like that that at least wasn't imposed upon us by Rick and Chris What did that come from? Is that like a cult specific like sanctioned or made ring Or do you just go to like a gym store No, we just got it wherever Okay Yeah So That's a
[00:17:43] Sounds like a horrible way to spend your 15th birthday I mean it was pretty uncomfortable It was pretty uncomfortable and I was like slut-chamed Was it just your dinner in your garden Bio parents there was not like a whole family No no
[00:17:57] Because the younger siblings couldn't be you know influenced for evil by hearing But I'd had a crush Of course Yeah, of course And the hard thing was like they really changed Shally treated me after that too Like it was already wasn't great
[00:18:13] But you know the slut-chaming became a lot more prevalent After that and I'm over you're like, oh my good kid Like I have not acted on anything I was honest with them I told them the truth about all of it Like blah blah blah
[00:18:26] And my reward for my honesty was being told I was a slut And a whore for the next seven years So it wasn't very fun What happened after that Whenever you did like a boy and would say something or like what I would have to tell
[00:18:47] But I have to tell Rick so like when I was 17 I told them about liking my ex Like it had gone from home just a casual crush Like I liked him And then you know Chris and the car rides and calling me a whore in a slut
[00:19:05] What did we really expect? Like what was the I don't know what they did so like the call Encourage parents to not talk about their sinful pasts So I'm guessing that like normal people Rick and Chris were hooking up his teenagers Because they met when they were 14 and 17
[00:19:24] Like I'm just guessing that they hooked up And they got married four years later And like So it was the 70s Like I don't know they probably did drugs and had sex But they couldn't tell It was just we don't want you to make the terrible mistakes
[00:19:44] We made it your age Like I don't know They were convinced that we were all just going to like run around Trying to have sex every other minute with anyone For any reason And what's funny is like There were kids in the cold
[00:20:02] Like when a cold kid married another cold kid The stories they came out of that like You know after a year of being married Oh we're just so sad God doesn't bless us with children Well have you been trying What do you mean trying Well like Oh geez
[00:20:19] Do you sleep together Like yeah we sleep in the same bed every night We still haven't gotten pregnant Like Wow We didn't have a sex set It wasn't like people really knew what to do anyways So Yeah I don't know how they thought we were supposed to like
[00:20:38] No all of this And hobbies Evil lustful sinful desires When we didn't even like No our own anatomy It's a prestate so much Yeah I mean nature finds away But like it wasn't I think a lot of kids growing up in the cold
[00:20:56] Didn't even know the mechanics of sex Oh right So That's what I mean is they suppressed it so much It was just like You will never think about this You're not allowed to talk about this We're not going to talk about it
[00:21:08] We're going to shame you for thinking about these Things that aren't defined And then it's just like okay You're married congrats Yep Yep That what So this is This is modern day IBLP's article on the IBLP website What is courtship Understanding how courtship differs from dating
[00:21:30] I'm going to do a high level Overview So Courtship for a Christian is a relationship Between a man and a woman In which they seek to determine if it is God's will For them to marry each other Under the protection guidance and blessings Appearance or mentors
[00:21:47] The couple concentrates on developing a deeper friendship That could lead to marriage As they discern both their readiness and God's timing for such a marriage So It's all about like Refraining from lust Not being sexually attracted to each other Not behaving in any way
[00:22:04] Like we know dating people do like you are friends You're treating each other like brother and sister Right While trying to figure out if you're supposed to get married You are not forming emotional attachment You have no physical contact And then
[00:22:17] Like God is going to finally reveal to the guy Like who the girl is And then The guy will go to the dad And the dad will like definitely discern If this is the right guy for the daughter And then present this guy's an option to the daughter
[00:22:31] To be corded And then the girl will like Divinely discern if this is the right guy And if everyone's like green light Yes, then you start to get to know each other as friends Like brother and sister And then God tells you somewhere in this time
[00:22:46] If this is the person you're supposed to marry And he's going to make it really clear first to your parents So you should always be asking your parents If this is the right person for you to marry And then
[00:22:56] If you're all like this is the person to marry Then you get engaged And then you start forming an emotional bond Absolutely no physical bond And then you get married And then you start having sex And you live happily ever after Because this is God's design for relationships
[00:23:13] If you can figure out how to If you can figure out how to So It's all about The purpose Kyle So The main difference between casual dating and courtship involves the goals to be reached by spending time with a potential marriage partner
[00:23:34] Men and women who choose to date often have no commitment to consider marrying the other person maturity and readiness for marriage are also not considerations in the decision to date Instead couples usually date With the goal of simply having fun and enjoying temporary romantic attachments
[00:23:52] We can't have that In contrast In contrast In whole contrast Courtship is undertaken only when both parties are prepared to make a commitment to marriage For most couples dating answers the question How can I find the one who will make me happy
[00:24:11] However, should that question be the goal of the Christian Courtship answers the more important questions we should be asking How can I serve the Lord now and wait on him and his timing for marriage? How can I honor God and discern his direction regarding my life partner
[00:24:26] Who is the one God has chosen for me so that we can together do more for his kingdom Then we each could singly Is this relationship bringing us closer to God or distracting us from our walk with Christ? It's a different level of accountability An exclusive dating relationship
[00:24:43] Is likely independent of others influence or counsel And we cannot have that So Often meeting the parents is the last step of a dating relationship before entering into engagement or marriage A couple of participating in Courtship first And a farmer wholly
[00:25:01] Seeks the blessings of their parents upon the Courtship itself And then welcomes the accountability of their parents and other mentors As the court ship progresses As the couple establishes guidelines for their relationship They can more easily recognize that God also holds them responsible to honor one another
[00:25:18] Uh blah blah blah It's a different commitment to purity So in casual dating relationships Self-gradification is normally the basis of the relationship Instead of focusing on God's pleasure The couple is often looking for words Chaps Instead of focusing on God's pleasure
[00:25:45] The self-centeredness can lead only to discontent as they attempt to meet their needs in their way Rather than allowing God to meet the deepest needs of their heart Consequently dating opens the door to many temptations Yeah Defrauding Being one of them
[00:26:06] Defrauding is stirring up desires that cannot be righteously satisfied A couple practicing courtship can havevert numerous temptations Pined never being alone together Not liking each other not touching, not knowing if they have any chemistry That's my edit once again A couple practicing courtship can havevert numerous temptations
[00:26:26] By choosing to be more accountable to God given authorities The dangers of defrauding can be avoided more successfully And an honest open friendship can be nurtured and protected As a couple deepens their relationship in unguarded ways They may more easily give away their hearts to each other prematurely
[00:26:46] Oh my god the number of times I heard give away your heart growing up Remembering to talk about that at some point And like a trot in garden and chewed up gum Yeah Yeah If they have a dating mentality having one relationship after another
[00:27:06] The series of emotional attachments can be damaging leading scars And regrets that may affect their future marriage relationships With courtship you are better able to preserve your heart And be given to your life partner in God's time
[00:27:23] The couple can be encouraged to focus on the spiritual component of their relationship first They can get to know each other and ways in places that afford protection from temptation With a goal of commitment, proceeding intimacy They really hate dating, don't they? Oh yeah It's a different focus
[00:27:42] A dating relationship is usually based on what the dating couple Presently knows about each other in contrast The biblical courtship is based on what God knows about each partner in his plans for their future So like divine insight is a huge Art of courtship
[00:27:57] So and then oh my god lots of other stuff But we can stop there That's basically what courtship is It is a far more holy and chased way To enter into a relationship with someone you don't even know if you like
[00:28:10] Or have chemistry with but your parents like them That's courtship So if we look at like courtship then versus now I found a hysterical and scarily accurate description of the ideal courtship process Unrecovering grace It's an article called
[00:28:32] Here's the courtship where is the love by a woman named Karen It didn't list her last name But she kind of talks about the version of courtship I grew up with So Karen from Recovering Grace Lay out the seven steps to a perfect courtship
[00:28:51] This is sadly so true Step one God reveals to a young man whom he is to marry Bonus points if he is not attracted to her And or her existence is pointed out to him by an authority Your face, Kyle Wow like just
[00:29:08] This shouldn't even be somebody who knows someone else Should point you in there directly Yeah because then it's more godly No. He cannot of course know her well Since anything more than a nodding acquaintance with the member of the opposite sex is dangerous
[00:29:21] So any confidence he had he has in proceeding can only come from direct revelation And this was so common There would be like Adults In the cult who would go to a man who'd be like This is god's woman for you You don't know her
[00:29:39] You don't like her but God told me so it is true And young people would act on it Like we didn't know any better No because it sounds like the parents are made out to be matchmakers Yes But like divine Like God speaking matchmakers
[00:29:55] He's just sitting there shaking his head I had just it's there's so much back And they're just the control is one thing The The Repression of emotions and Any sexual desire that's in there And I say sexual desire even though we're talking about children
[00:30:15] But like there's a chemistry Well no you cannot you cannot court until you are of an age And have financial independence and all this other stuff to get married Oh, I know but like they're suppressing the In the dating description they were like
[00:30:31] You're going to have like these unholy desires Or whatever they said in there That's the chemistry I'm talking about We're like oh I see somebody And I like them You can't have that You can't have that And it's supposed to be you know
[00:30:44] They want you to go down this route of Just You're going to end up married to some stranger That also some stranger decided You too were the perfect couple Based on I don't know what Just those two would look cute together Like what was the
[00:31:02] It was usually like power and politics and other stuff So we're back to like trying to marry offer You know Creating stronger families and Sometimes gaining more land Gold Yes, pretty bad Ready for step two I get I mean there's so much in there
[00:31:22] I feel like I could do a whole episode I'm just that like the differences between Do you want to say more? No I don't I have to think about this This is so much in there that Wow like that's just Complex yeah
[00:31:39] Step two he seeks his parents permission To proceed They may resort to various Stratogens to get to know the girl Without a rousing her suspicion Disception as far less Serious a crime than a Rousing improper emotional attachments This is so true
[00:31:58] The stories that we come out and it was always Poses like oh it's so cute Like we're married now And everyone tricked us So that his parents could get to know me Without like as little woman Without me knowing that they were vetting me for their son Ah
[00:32:13] Like crazy shit that would happen And then there were a lot of I'm sorry but like romanticizing it I guess I mean that's that's one way to handle trauma But they just Yeah it was like if the parents were all like
[00:32:31] Can I be in and got to know the other And there were all the stories of Crazy shit that would happen Like Fathers who would do the Was it Who was the one who had to like labor for seven years
[00:32:48] And then he got Leah when he wanted Rachel Was that Jacob? Oh I So they would do that There were there were cult dads who would Make guys work seven years Before allowing them to court Or marry their daughter Like what do you mean by work like
[00:33:06] Like to impress them or Like work for the family business Or just work general And yeah Or there were families that they would Swat kids So that the families could assess if they Were a good fit for each other They would send the guy to the girls
[00:33:21] Family and the girl the guys family And they would live there For like sometimes I heard stories of Six to 12 months Sometimes I think I heard one About two years Trying to make sure that they were like Right for each other That's insane Yeah But like Logistically speaking
[00:33:41] How is that functioning in such Being households like if you got Swat into some family What room were you sleeping in Like with the other girls Yeah with the other girls With the other boys Yeah Like Oh It just not Crazy stuff Crazy crazy stuff Yeah So
[00:34:06] More on that at this time You just stunned I don't know I don't know Just keep going This is He's like I can't Where we thought to get into all of this There's a lot here I mean And you just like grow up
[00:34:23] Wondering if you're going to be Farmed off to some other family For six months to two years So that they can vet you and make sure you're Holding enough Well there's just a lot of deception Happening by parents and God yeah
[00:34:35] Because it sounds like they've got this little Evil little child trafficking ring In the background that they're trying to Peace together So weird Step three He asks her father for permission to court This begins a month long Bending process Combining techniques used by the secret service
[00:34:53] And the Spanish Inquisition To verify the young men's Impackable personal history Financial credentials and doctrinal purity Okay It's So yeah Like you know how Jim Bob had a What was it like? A 40 page application I think it was yeah Yeah like that was pretty common
[00:35:19] For for father to do that They would set a young man down If they didn't have like a paper application They'd set a young man down And there would be like Like sometimes months of the parent Or the father meeting with the guy Like once a week
[00:35:32] To grill him on everything About like what he believed His purity His salvation history Like His spiritual gifts His name meanings have like a big thing in courtship We'll get to that some other time Um Jesus Yeah And like the whole spying on
[00:35:58] Like the parents of the one kids Spying on the other kid And the other kids family And the other kids parents Like that was a whole thing During this phase as well So, hold on So If the name meaning Was a big deal
[00:36:12] And obviously we've heard in previous episodes That like a lot of kids were named after Biblical characters And like that was very common And I think even Yeah I mean, I think you see that And cult families were just like Yeah I'm gonna die at Jeremiah
[00:36:29] Right all that kind of stuff Like even your ex's name Falls into that category But like Is that like a How deep does that go Because does that mean the parents Are like being very intentional about Like how they name their kids
[00:36:45] Because there's not all good characters in the Bible Correct So is it like if you get named A bad character Or a bad person in the Bible Are you doomed For dating after that Because it's like, oh That kid's named Jetta Daya And Jetta Daya was Whatever
[00:37:04] And so we don't want that I mean yeah But also a good cult family Wouldn't do that Because they would research the living Bejesus out of the name of the name First Oh There's that makes no sense at all Like we got a group of people
[00:37:20] A whole cult full of people And they're gonna make a bunch of babies And then call them after Good characters Or people in the Bible And then We're gonna judge them again 15 years later We're like Nathan and Joshua And Ethan were like Very popular Names And then like
[00:37:39] Well they're had to have been less Disirable names Yeah I don't remember Oh Jacob was another big one Oh yeah This is so stupid I knew someone named Hadasa Which is I think he grew for Esther Mm-hmm Yeah And even though going back for a second
[00:38:03] Even like the working for seven years I remember reading that story That by one Like that's intense Yeah That's intense Like it was kind of Pitched You know Remanticized And a romanticized way Oh you've laid it for me Yeah But to actually Someone to interpret that
[00:38:24] But like nope You're gonna come work at the family car But store for seven years Before you can even ask my Daughter to court That's That's next level Mm-hmm Oh boy Oh man Step four He has given permission by the father To quote When his daughter's heart
[00:38:46] Bonus points if she has no clue That anything is going on until now Double point Double bonus points if she initially thinks he's Eki this is so true So there was this whole like The girl couldn't know Because Because she might start liking the boy
[00:39:03] Or might get her hopes up And then her father will decide He's not the right candidate for her And so like The female was usually supposed to be totally And the dark until her father Like comes to her And I remember being a kid And thinking about this
[00:39:18] Like there were so many stories of like young women You know they would be And their bedroom And the evening getting ready for bed And then there would be a knock on their door And it would be their father coming in to tell them Well
[00:39:31] I young men has asked to court you And you like Because you don't want me say And it like you just Just wait around for your dad to come Tell you there's a guy who wants to court you And you just like grow up
[00:39:44] And as a kid you were And as a kid you were a man to size it Because that's all you know Like oh how old will I be when the knock comes on My door that a guy wants to court me
[00:39:53] And what guy will want to court me And like It's totally removed All independence Oh yeah From the child At this point because They have no say in this They're going to get matched with somebody And you're going to get told who it is
[00:40:12] And you're not allowed to Specifically female Yeah And you're not allowed to go find that on your own And you're not allowed to have any feelings On your own Definitely not Until you are married So bad And you better kick ass at your wedding night But no instructions
[00:40:29] So instructions Setting them up for success Okay Step 5 Oh and that real quick though Double bonus If she thinks if she initially thinks he's eggy That's another thing that would happen all the time Like you care the stories Well I didn't think he was attractive at first
[00:40:50] Or I didn't like his personality at first But all of my authorities told me he was God's choice for me and as I As I obey the authority and surrender to authority And God's will I came to realize that That even though he was 20 And ball
[00:41:07] I really found that attractive Like Like seriously That kind of It was kind of stories would circulate I mean it just seems like Nothing against ball guys But like that's not everybody's thing Yeah That was like seriously stories I heard growing
[00:41:24] But that's just like their wills broken at that point Oh yeah They've finally broke down and they've been either brainwashed Or just beat down to the point where they're like accepting Their fate Or their reality I guess is accurate Step 5
[00:41:41] The young man tries to win the girls heart Under close supervision And advisement by her father The girl receives a divine revelation That she is to marry him and let her father know Who then tells the young man At no time during this process Are they without supervision?
[00:42:00] Can she actually say anything To the guy? No to it Well obviously not Could she say to her dad Like I don't like Jake Jacob Yeah Will it actually matter? Uh, depends on how convinced the father
[00:42:18] Was in his divine revelation from God that his daughter should marry Jacob So no I mean I knew I knew young women who called off courtships And their father supported them So but like Because there's a little But like in the more extreme versions
[00:42:38] But they were like you have to come work for us for seven years Like Good luck Yeah And the whole supervision thing Like oh my gosh I've talked before about having to shaperown Andrea And Todd even though it was ten years younger Mm-hmm The Andrea
[00:42:56] My ex's mom spied on us with binoculars When we were sitting in a field at the park talking You know so That's That was normal So what were you allowed to do Like once you're in the courting process Spend time with each other's families
[00:43:16] So I was always group active in the family Yes You could spend time with each other's families You could maybe go on group activities With like that were shaperoned By married couples You could spend time with married mentor couples Mm-hmm You could spend time with each other's parents
[00:43:35] Like double date with your parents You know that's normal Uh You're face I can't even imagine Like I'm trying to think through my head Like how does that even work? Like how do you date when your parents are next to you? Like usually at that age you're like
[00:43:55] Parents Again imagine trying to like Court or date Somebody else and then both of your parents Or somebody's parents So they're like hovering Oh yeah Do they even like are you Theoretically or maybe did this happen to you
[00:44:11] Like did you go on like one of these double dates things? Like are you even allowed to Have a conversation correctly with them Or is it just a group Conversation at that time That was pretty much a group Yeah So you know in like movies that depict
[00:44:31] I don't know 1718 early 1900s Where like the man would call on the lady And her mother would be on the other side of the drawing room Watching them But they could talk to each other But they were closely supervised Like you could have that kind of stuff
[00:44:49] As the relationship progressed I mean a lot of this sounds like that And we've been watching like Bridgeton And like you see that in there Where it's like a collar I think is what they call it But somebody in the family
[00:45:01] Or the parents or the mom are like Lorking around the room Yep The whole time They're protecting the purity Because there can be no appearance of evil So like if you're going to sit on a couch next to each other They're better be room for Jesus
[00:45:16] You better not holding hands You better have someone from one of your families watching your every move Oh I remember You know when they eat the drop on what you're saying Leaving space for Jesus that was I remember that That wasn't just the cold Okay
[00:45:34] So after like the divine revelation that you're to marry each other We move on to step six The parties are now allowed to become emotionally attached But must still avoid physical contact Not kissing is obligatory Not holding hands gets you bonus points Before God They must also
[00:45:56] Still never be alone together To your loud to hold hands But it's from in some families Wow I remember like the horror Amy and I had in our you know righteous and dignity When we found out Andrea and Todd kissed before marriage
[00:46:14] Amy had her first kiss at the altar Oh that just seems like so bad Just so late in the process Oh like and then it's like an intimate moment And your first kiss is in front of like 300 church people Yeah Like you don't even know what sex is
[00:46:35] Then you're so I don't know this baby like TMI But as a boy The first physical contact with A girl or you know man and woman or whatever Like Like is a teenager Yeah like that That does things to your body
[00:46:53] That I would not want to be in a public place when that happens That's like cannot imagine the horror of having my first kiss On stage in front of 300 people Okay also like Like my first kiss
[00:47:08] I had that sort of you know thing happened with the other party And I was Not sure what to do Oh well sure because you probably had no idea what the hell was happening I unfortunately had like sexual assault But yes But like also you know For holy
[00:47:30] Before God this can't happen It's like attraction And lust Wow We can't have that I don't know that This is such a train wreck But like the comedy value Like I can imagine It was like an outsider sitting in I don't want to use cold weddings
[00:47:53] And then being like What is happening On stage Like they've never kissed before This is the first time They're probably like you know Smiring their mouths together Because they don't know what's actually happening And you know things are happening People are waddling away Weird
[00:48:11] Like I don't know what's happened I was not I don't know I don't know But like Can you imagine If you're a guy And you're like on a stage at a wedding And like this starts Like what panic That's not Unfortunately that is not Abnormal
[00:48:34] Like just in the course of Going to puberty And like That stuff happens all the time And it's always panic And like How do I get out of here How do I hide this Like how do I not stand up for the next However many minutes
[00:48:53] Like that's just a part of being a boy Like in front of everyone Oh yeah I have to turn around and face this Right Because she's in and wife Yeah Bad egg white You just hope and pray Or sitting And you can stay sitting But like
[00:49:10] Also I feel like that's such a horrible person If that was your first I don't know Like sexual intimate contact And it's like their shame And panic and embarrassment around Right What kind of fucking president is that set Yeah I mean that's where I originally came from
[00:49:25] When I went down this rabbit hole It's just like I can't imagine that being your first experience You're like your body Feels like The hormones or whatever Go wild And you feel that And then like things start happening And then you start realizing Things are happening
[00:49:43] And then it goes straight in a panic And like What do I do now? How do I get out of here How do I stop this I can't catch too Yeah Oh God Don't join cold people Just don't be in colds Ugh Wow Yeah Okay
[00:50:03] Are you ready for the final set? Yes, maybe Step 7 They get married Have their first kiss And we'll soften to the blissful life reserve For those who wait for God's best At this point They may be alone together Although they still better
[00:50:19] They're going to be following those rules from the admit Some in our For marriage So that's all from A lady Who grew up in IBLP She and her husband So the like the rest of the articles Interesting It's on the recovering grace website And again, it's called
[00:50:34] Here's the courtship Where's the love And she goes on to make a couple Really interesting points Like How Just at this point Of young adulthood When we're supposed to be like Launching And like forging our own way And making our own families
[00:50:49] Just when we should be treated as full adults Courtship gets slapped on And you're back to being treated like a little kid And you have rules And your parents have to approve of everything And you have to win their approval And like You have to comply
[00:51:03] So you enter adulthood You enter like the most important relationship of your life Under Like coercion and manipulation And like a little kid Like a little kid You ask the same line of all the rules And just how damaging that is
[00:51:18] Is it like set to you up for marriage And she said She and her husband Like really struggled for years And ultimately they figured out how to like Detangle from cult stuff And how to talk to each other About big decisions
[00:51:34] Because they didn't know how to do that Because that wasn't like even part of the foundation Of their relationship They didn't talk to each other They had to talk to their authorities And got like She said it took them years
[00:51:42] To figure out how to even talk to each other About big things Like important decisions Because they didn't even know how to make them together I'm sure that's confusing for both parties To understand how to become independent And lead their own lives And have a healthy relationship
[00:52:03] Where you can Yeah Just feels like you're just let out Into the wild With no guidance at all Because until that point When it's just been you've been under someone else's thumb Or the umbrella of authority As they call it But like
[00:52:17] It's not set up for success at all And Karen goes on to point out That it's not even biblical Because the Bible is like you need to Like leave the old family And King James version But like cleave to each other And how courtship Basically teaches you
[00:52:35] That the goal of your relationship Was to please your old family and your parents Like not to come together In any meaningful Intimate or productive way So and she also comes Like a wedding isn't some magical Switch that gets flipped So
[00:52:55] This seems like they treated it that way Oh, they did! They absolutely did Absolutely did And then you know they have their two little success stories That they put in the seminar Of course And one time That means that means that means it's perfect
[00:53:08] And it's God's will and it's all going to be great And you should do it too Why are you doing it yet? Do you want to go to hell? So it's just I think I think I have enough steam We're not going to get through everything
[00:53:21] I have on the island I think I have enough steam To go through what I deal pieces today And I can kind of point out How it's different than what I grew up with That's good Because I kind of had a question about that I was curious about
[00:53:35] Your experience with a lot of these things Versus What they teach And what the differences are there Because with a cult there's a lot of deception And subversion and stuff Even as an outsider Someone didn't grow up in a cult
[00:53:53] Like if you just go purely read the documentation Or you read the The ATI books or the IBLP books Or whatever you find online It's still probably not going to be Representative of what actually Right So right out the gate on the IBLP website
[00:54:12] They have a little article How does courtship work? Right out the gate It says Every individual family in situation is unique And therefore each courtship is unique I don't totally remember that Like you know broad accepting vague terminology As it can
[00:54:27] It was like this is the way in which That was shout Go Go Fourth and do it Exactly this prescribed way I could be forgetting it But immediately when I read that It was like that doesn't sound right Like where you meet Can't have that So
[00:54:48] Yeah and it goes like what worked 12 for one couple Might not be the best choice for another And the concepts presented here Helpful guidelines And a possible pattern to consider But they are not exhaustive And like this is not bill The same bill Bill had everything
[00:55:05] And it was all hidden truths from God that he found Because he was bill and God told him Like this is way There's way too much allowance Right off the bat in the first paragraph And then it points it back Like e to parents
[00:55:18] Each couple along with their parents Or other mentors Maseek the Lord and discern his direction For their specific courtship So they still have the parent thing That hasn't gone anywhere And And then it talks about how like The guidelines that are listed below
[00:55:34] Are not meant to be limitations of rights Or restrictions of freedoms But rather a framework Of principles that are meant to provide Protection safeguard the heart And give direction along the way And it talks about how like modern day dating Might look like more freedom
[00:55:49] But it's not because it leaves They may leave Why do open The gates that lead to confusion Hardache and impurity And you know speaking of heartache That was such a big part of it Like you weren't supposed to get your heart broken ever Like Courtship prevented that
[00:56:06] Because you never got emotionally attached Until you knew you were going to marry each other So like You were never supposed to have Heartbreak or sorrow Which is just like I have my heart broken It is not fun I give it you know zero out of five stars
[00:56:23] But it was important for my personal growth Like I learned a lot through heartbreak And I learned a lot through sorrow And things that didn't work out And stuff like You're basically robbing people of Opportunities for growth By trying to give them this like
[00:56:36] Perfect way forward with no bumps in the road Like bumps in the road Sock but we learned an awful lot from them So You're robbing people of Opportunities to grow and mature And become wiser and savour And like I think I love better For what's happened to me
[00:56:56] Like I have more empathy And I have more ability to connect with people And have like Intensely meaningful relationships Not just with you but like with my best friends But also with you Like I think I have a better relationship with you Because of heartbreak
[00:57:16] Then I would have had without heartbreak Yeah, I mean I think it's I'm going to use the word dating Like dating is important Because you may Date somebody and say Well I really like these qualities Yeah, it's so educational And you know these are things I don't like
[00:57:32] And then next go around You're like Oh this person really Like I don't even know this was a thing Like they do this really well And I like that And you know what I really miss From the last relationship Is you know X, Y, or Z
[00:57:49] And you kind of Grow through that And you figure it out and it's Try out by fire Sure But at the end of all that You have a way better idea of what you like Man what you need And what's out there And that's not even counting like
[00:58:06] Romantic you know sexually Like there's there's Learning and exploring there That you're not going to get What is just like one and done Anything What was it in my wedding Vows to you that like When I met you You felt so familiar
[00:58:24] Because it was like all of my favorite things And people I had known before Came together in one person And I think that that's why Having Like if you if you meet the love of your life And you it's like the first person And you're with them forever
[00:58:41] Like more power to you I am a sucker for those love stories I love them I thought that was going to be mine I'm a huge fan of those stories No issue with it But if that's not your life
[00:58:53] And I think a lot of us go through multiple relationships Before we find like the one That is going to go the distance It I mean that's romantic too It's romantic too And you learn a lot You figure out what works for you
[00:59:10] And I think if you're able to harness it Like harness the various heartbreaks Like I think you show up to that You know forever relationship Far more equipped To do it well So yeah I'm not saying I'm not saying it's bad
[00:59:26] If you meet the love of your life and that's the first person But I think a lot of us A lot of us do go through iterations Where we learn and we grow and we figure out what works for us
[00:59:35] And I don't think there's a right or wrong way Right or like if it's like you get lucky The first time around like Awesome and if not like It's just nice to life and you know It'll happen
[00:59:50] But it's interesting that the cult was tried to shield you from Any other option besides pre-arranged essentially And you can't explore this for yourself No Someone else else to do it for you Someone else is going to do it Something that hasn't changed
[01:00:12] Is that a person should not enter into courtship Until he or she is at a place in life where marriage is a realistic possibility And then it was a bunch of questions you're supposed to ask before entering into courtship
[01:00:28] How does that even work when like 15 is the point in which You're allowed to court Well because you know much like the olden days Women could be courted much younger So like you could be 17 being courted by a man in his 20s
[01:00:49] Like there was a woman a young woman in my culture I think was like 19 And a guy who is 31 Asked her dad to court her they got married I think they're divorced now but like So yeah What kind of where I'm going is that They almost sanctioned that
[01:01:11] Oh God yeah For her dad because what they're saying is The man in this case the man's got to be Abiled to provide We've got to have a house We've got to have a house and a job
[01:01:22] We've got to have a house and a job and a car Savings like some fathers would have Stipulations for how much they had to have And savings in the dowry Like all of the stuff But yeah so I mean by nature of just that statement
[01:01:36] And by also allowing Teenage girls to court Like they're kind of sanctioning that age gap Yep Yep Which is nothing wrong with that But inherently I know plenty of couples that have a gap like that Yeah Couple you know two three five ten years
[01:02:00] This was a little more malicious How they talk about initiating Courtships still looks Still looks pretty much the same When a man senses God has prepared him for marriage And is leading him to pursue marriage with a particular woman
[01:02:16] He would be wise to first seek counsel from his God given authorities Authorities In most cases he will present the idea to his parents And then it talks about like if the parents have died Who did talk to you and that's a pastor Or another godly man
[01:02:33] God's direction to pursue Courtship is confirmed through prayer Insights from God's word The man's authorities And if all that happens he then contacts the woman's father Or guardian to request permission To initiate the court ship Then the father guardian goes to the daughter
[01:02:52] That's the you know knock on the door She's so surprised because she has no clue anything is going on So he goes and talks about creepy I know she talks to her about the possibility of a relationship And then listens to her feelings on the matter
[01:03:07] That might be new When the woman's father has given the man his blessing And the daughter desires to enter into a Courtship relationship The man is free to pursue winning her affections toward the goal of marriage But also he can make her like her Like him like
[01:03:22] I don't know how the supposed to work She can't have affections until you're engaged Did that ever happen? I don't know Well I mean I guess in your experience Did you ever flirt with boys before like this whole court thing That was arranged in the same time
[01:03:40] We were taught specifically how not to flirt Okay That's why I'm still not that great at it So I found out later that like my version of flirting as an adult We'll have to do a whole episode on me dating for the first time in my life
[01:03:59] After my divorce it was a rocky and at times difficult experience But yeah, I would like try to have conversations about like deep philosophical things And that was me flirting and apparently just scared people away This makes so much sense Oh no
[01:04:24] We definitely need to have this conversation for my own My own benefit Oh this makes so much sense I think we flirt We do but this is this is important Okay Just as a husband who is the head of the family has a unique role
[01:04:49] So the man who initiates the courtship has special responsibilities He should have a dynamic walk with God prior to marriage He should treat all young ladies to whom he is not married as sisters With absolute purity
[01:05:04] Which like can we just fucking talk about your supposed to treat this person like a brother and sister And then you're supposed to marry them and have sex with them This is really creepy and ancestry It's like it's so strange That part I've seen before Yeah
[01:05:18] And yeah, the way they want you to just flip a switch and go from like You must treat this person like And again because this may be somebody you already know Like you should have been treating this person like a brother or sister this entire time
[01:05:33] Even though biologically you probably felt something more than that That you were just suppressing Or did you or maybe not I don't know did you like did you ever have those feelings that you were like I don't know what this is
[01:05:45] But I'm not supposed to be doing it Mmm like re-rever Not really I was attracted I'm curious about like where you was your body like overriding your brainwashing of like I find this boy attractive Like I am a track there's something here Well, yeah, but it wasn't physical
[01:06:09] It would be like I liked like with my ex I thought he was cute But it was like for a long time. It was just like I like talking to him like we had really good conversations
[01:06:24] Yeah, and that's what I mean by like attracted like they're you could tell physically That there was something different about him than I could tell emotionally I could tell emotionally There was something different about him then you know that guy over what you weren't supposed to do anything
[01:06:39] Nothing absolutely nothing He should demonstrate leadership And he should just turn in how he will provide for his future families basic needs And then you get to know each other by participating in a variety of activities together as families And then you maintain accountability
[01:06:59] To carefully guard against premature emotional attachment and inappropriate physical intimacy like holding cans God forbid you hold hands Tell babies are made Amanda I know right we're just sleeping in the same bed night after night With all your clothes on
[01:07:21] During courtship as the men and women spend time together getting to know one another They should keep as their highest priority honoring the Lord by honoring each other So then it gets into defrauding because this is all about purity to defraud
[01:07:39] Another person is to stir up in them desires that cannot be rigorously satisfied A woman can defraud him in by the way She dresses talks or looks at him and men can defraud a woman by improper touching or by talking about marital commitment
[01:07:51] When he is not able or intending to carry it out kind of like Bill Guthrie You have to make sure your time is about wisely you need to minimize time spent together in a secluded manner
[01:08:06] Guard your heart so you don't ignite passions that should only be reserved for marriage Don't have any passion at feelings about this person you might want to marry And then you have to discern God's timetable because it will become more challenging to manage emotional attachments
[01:08:23] And remain objective which you must do and since you can't your family will Of course Hmm, um, a long courtship can become confusing and frustrating often leading to disillusionment
[01:08:35] Also the deeper the friendship becomes the more painful a separation will be if the courtship does not lead to marriage The couple should earnestly seek for God's direction And the parents or mentors involved should not unnecessarily link in the process of courtship
[01:08:50] While single both the men and women are free to concentrate on pleasing the Lord as each discerns God's purpose for their lives However, married couples are directed by the Lord to see how they can please one another
[01:09:02] During the time of courtship neither person is able to focus his or her full attention on either of these goals So it's confusing Kyle Therefore a lengthy courtship is not necessarily best so you need to rush this whole bad idea like it's a bad idea
[01:09:17] And the cherry on the top is let's rush it Hmm, and then you have to remember the goal To diligently seek the Lord to discern whether or not they should be married And conserve and honor God more effectively together than a part That is the goal Hmm, interesting
[01:09:35] And it's important for everyone to understand that a decision to enter into courtship is not a commitment to marry You're figuring out if you can serve God better together So this is hilarious what if a courtship does not end in marriage
[01:09:48] Should one of the individuals discern that marriages not God's will with the council and affirmation of his or her parents Because they got to be on board before he call it off The courtship should be ended instead of becoming better or resentful
[01:10:01] Everyone involved can choose by God's grace to have a great for heart If you didn't end up with the wrong person We can't have any heartbreak at that point Nope, nope So you know that's courtship and then that shall we'll talk about this a lot more
[01:10:19] There's plenty to get into with the giving up the heart stuff that you mentioned earlier in the defrauding And I've got plenty of questions around those so we'll make this a two part series Or a three or a four who we can notice We'll see
[01:10:32] Definitely a multi-part series And we'll be back next week with more courtship in the cult Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind Until next time Don't join a cult If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share and subscribe
[01:10:49] And we will catch you on the next episode