42 - Don't Get Locked Out

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult Would you might know from the dugger family?

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together All right, welcome back to the next episode. We are back together again. I am at the new place

[00:00:38] Yeah, we're coming to you live this time from a construction zone. Yes Office or the podcasting area is not set up So the Ku-6 may not be like they used to be but we'll get there. Yeah, been in the vent full couple of weeks

[00:00:54] It's been a long couple of weeks for sure. You were on the road driving out here And I've been working my butt off for the last couple weeks like painting and overseeing all the renovation at the new place And

[00:01:06] I decided like I'll go to this spa and get a treatment like just to relax and do something Not Constructiony for once and I'm allergic to something. I made it very clear. I'm allergic I told them which products not to use they used it anyways, so you know

[00:01:24] I got to go spend some time Seeking emergency medical care for that and the reason I'm sharing this is because for the first time Something bad in scary happened to me and I didn't go like what have I done? It's God cursing me

[00:01:39] That was a little scary for me because I was on the road it was and it was like immediate like the allergic reaction was immediate So instead of like bounding into your arms when you finally made it I was like They put me on so many medications

[00:01:53] I was a zombie But I was alive You were alive. Yeah, and I don't think I know your allergic to a couple things and I don't think I You've never seen I'm not yeah, but this particular reaction this one hasn't happened

[00:02:09] For as long as we've been together. Oh, I'm so careful. Yeah, so I did know it's a you know New which were telling me and you're like kind of go over the emergency room and oh Just like oh geez like what's

[00:02:21] You look like a lot fortunately you like you had stopped I was just pulling into the gas and we're new so I was like I don't know which hospitals to go to I don't know what's good. I don't know which one has like eight hour weights

[00:02:35] Yeah, so you were googling I was googling well and then we found the first thing that had a decent rating and I just ran But anyways all that to say Number one we're together, which is nice and we're chimed at dead, which is nice and we're three

[00:02:49] I didn't have a theological crisis when I had a crisis Which was really nice? I was just you know pissed off at people for Using products. I specifically told them not to use But yeah, no one died

[00:03:03] Rule number one that is every team I ever lead in any context in life. I'm always like Okay, everyone rule number one nobody dies It gets really morbid though when you're in the military and you tell your team nobody dies

[00:03:19] It's okay people in the military like dark humor. It's fine. All right, so before we get into this episode today Which is Kyle's choice? Well get to that but let's start off with a couple of questions We've got a huge backlog of questions

[00:03:32] I like answering those two questions We keep them all on a spreadsheet And try to work through them. So we need to start like if you send us a question Please know it's we're gonna get there. Yeah, so the first one comes from

[00:03:48] Michaela okay, she says I'm right around two years into being a sikoners and since my own experience of sexual trauma I find myself wanting to be a forensic nurse slash sane nurse Working with individuals who are in and have been in similar or worse circumstances

[00:04:06] What would you tell someone who is looking to go into this type of work whether or not having those experiences personally? Okay, this is a fantastic question first of all. Michaela, thank you for what you do

[00:04:18] Taking care of people and thank you for considering new and different and sometimes scary ways that you could branch out and take care of people in other ways my I kind of have like a standard response to How to

[00:04:34] Go about making a decision should I go into a field where I will be interfacing with sexual assault on a daily or almost daily basis The first thing I always say is have you gotten help for yourself?

[00:04:46] Have you truly dug in and done the work on yourself to the point where you are not easily triggered? It is possible to get there There are still things that no matter how much work I've done to myself if I hear a story

[00:04:59] Particularly about a kid on mad and a mom real mad and that can take me a little bit to get over just my Intense feelings of protection and anger I have when I hear those stories and that goes for adults too

[00:05:16] I can show up. I can be present in the emergency room With folks who had just experienced an assault of some kind and I am healed enough within myself

[00:05:26] It doesn't send me on a mental health spiral and there's a difference between like okay this this distress is knee because We should be distressed by sexual assault anyone even if you haven't been sexually assaulted

[00:05:38] It is a good thing for society if we are distressed by sexual assault Because that is Often an activating motivating factor for folks to get involved in prevention and Response but primarily in prevention. You're still gonna feel feelings no matter how healed you are

[00:05:54] But if it's gonna put you in a mental health tail spin My recommendation is always cold off until you have reached a place within yourself that that does not send you in in a spiral It's kind of like you know trying to

[00:06:09] Rescue someone who's drowning if you can't swim you're probably not the best person to go rescue the drowning person It doesn't mean the drowning person doesn't matter. It just means you're probably into drown too

[00:06:19] And then we're gonna lose two people instead of one which is a very morbid practical way of looking at it But I'm sorry. I was in the military. I'm gonna

[00:06:28] Sometimes be morbid and practical and so yeah, make sure that you will not go into a mental health tail spin that's number one Number two can you compartmentalize effectively And that for me as a sexual assault survivor who works constantly in the field of gender-based violence Response I

[00:06:51] Compartmentalize the shit out of my life. Okay, so even even myself even my own story I think I've talked about this in in the past where it's it's a very healthy small box It's on a shelf in my mind and I can access it anytime

[00:07:04] I need it I can pull that box down I can go through what's in the box and I'm not gonna get super distressed by it

[00:07:10] And then when I don't need it anymore I can put that box back up on the shelf now for other survivors who share their story with me I'm a very empathetic person if you tell me your story

[00:07:18] I'm gonna feel with you. I'm gonna be all in with you in that moment now I have her Hundreds thousands I don't know so many survivor stories at this point in my life that if I walked around feeling and carrying all of that

[00:07:32] I would just die I would fall over in a corner and crime myself to death So what I have learned to do when I used to be like that when I was a lot younger In my early 20s when I first started working with survivors

[00:07:46] I realized I was heading toward a mental health tailspin. I was like okay I gotta take care of me like what do I need to do so that I can show up effectively for these people

[00:07:55] So the way I personally handle that is I have trained myself to compartmentalize such that when I am with a survivor or with someone who's Experience any kind of trauma or secondary trauma and they're telling you their story

[00:08:05] I am 100% in like I am there with you and then when that conversation ends Your story gets put in a box and it goes in the shelf in my mind goes on the shelf in my mind

[00:08:17] And I don't carry that box around like it that box is put away But when I see you next time I can immediately pull that box off the shelf open it up and access everything and be right back in it with you The point being

[00:08:30] You gotta be able to put that box away and Function as a normal person as yourself when you're not interfacing with the trauma with someone So Number one make sure you're in a spot where you're stable and you will go into mental health tails

[00:08:47] But number two learn and practice compartmentalization Number three you have to go into this field knowing that there are going to be problems you can't solve Problems that are so much bigger than you is one person problems that are so systemic Problems that have to do with just

[00:09:08] How some people show up on the planet and decide to behave and they decide to create chaos and injury and pain I think we can reduce the number of people who choose violence But I'm enough of a realist I think there's always going to be that demographic

[00:09:24] I think there are always going to be people who first whatever reason come to the planet With something about them that makes them decide to choose harm and choose harming others and I would never say

[00:09:34] Don't try to make the world a better place because I do believe we can. I truly believe we can. I have seen the issue of sexual assault I've seen conversations about it improve in my lifetime

[00:09:46] I've seen laws improve. I've seen you know your average Joe on the street Improved in their knowledge About sexual assault and response and awareness and prevention and all of those things So I think I think we're trending towards something good and that's great But

[00:10:05] There is always going to be some level of harm in the world because there are humans and sometimes humans just choose to harm each other

[00:10:12] So you have to go into the field knowing that you will not be able to save everyone and you will not be able to fix 100% of the things that are out there And that's hard and a lot of Supertype A people

[00:10:25] Struggle with that. I raised my hand, you know in the background here but You just have to go into this field knowing you're gonna see and hear horrible things

[00:10:36] And you will not be able to fix it all now what you can do is show up for that person now Let's let's talk specifically about sane which is sexual assault nurse examiner. It's a forensic exam That is admissible in court and

[00:10:50] We could talk tons and tons about sane But since that isn't the question I'll answer what do you need to to go into that You're gonna see and hear horrible things as as a sane Examiner and

[00:11:05] You just have to be prepared that the difference you can make is usually right then in that moment making sure That survivor feels safe That they feel seen and heard that they feel believed that they feel cared about

[00:11:18] That right now in that room with you. They are safe Maybe when they leave the room they won't feel safe, but right then right there they are safe because you're there And you're going to be safe for them

[00:11:30] It's a very educational job so the sains with whom I've had conversations Talk a lot about the amount of education they do So we think of a a sane exam or it's often referred to as a rape kit as well

[00:11:47] You know, we think of those is the scary awful They're just poking and prodding you the whole time Procedures it's not the whole thing is consent base. Yes, they have a checklist that covers everything you can imagine

[00:12:00] But they're always going to gain consent first from the survivor would you like to have this swapped? Would you like to have this examined? Would you like to have this photograph? Would you like to have this ex-read like Everything comes back to survivor choice

[00:12:14] in the sane exam and so Sain examiners spend a lot of time with the patient with the survivor kind of educating them on the different pieces of the exam and why it might be beneficial to do that part of the exam even if it's scary

[00:12:30] They're not going to push you like a good saying is never going to push you to do something you don't want to do So having that kind of educator heart educator mindset

[00:12:39] From I'm not a sane examiner obviously, but from the ones with whom I've had conversations like having that Educational passion really comes in handy when you are interfacing with survivors who are still in like full-blown crisis mode

[00:12:55] And again because they're in full-blown crisis mode just to circle all the way back to the beginning You got to be in a place where you can handle that without going into a mental health tailspin Either right there on the spot or later when you go home

[00:13:08] I mean, that's good. I had never heard of a sane nurse Till after you and I were together, it makes sense that those exist but I'd never heard of them before And I think you kind of went into what exactly they do

[00:13:22] Just for maybe people out there who don't know what a sane nurse does in how that impacts him that is a huge conversation

[00:13:32] And I don't know if we could do it justice right here right now, but I will I will add that we think of it as because it's seen sexual Examiners exam

[00:13:44] We tend to think it's just sexual assault, but you can have a sane or forensic exam for domestic violence Other things like that so the cool thing about it is sane examiners can testify in a court of law

[00:13:59] So it's helpful if you have experience some sort of trauma to your physical being To go in and have that documented as quickly as you can in the aftermath of a trauma because I mean they will document the living daylights out of it

[00:14:16] And if and they they don't work with the police they are a totally separate entity. They are medical They are healthcare providers. They are not the police so you can have a sane exam And not report to law enforcement

[00:14:29] I think it's a little different if it's a minor I think there are different things they have to do but an adult can walk in and they can just call you Jindo or John Doe or whatever

[00:14:40] And you get a a case number attached to your file instead of a name So that that can go on record with one forcement anonymously and they hold it for a certain number of years I think it depends on your state and

[00:14:54] And you have all that time to decide if you want to press charges and if you do then there's this whole case log of The forensic evidence from your physical body and that's not just swabs. It's okay

[00:15:08] There were bruises here on the neck and particularly in cases where there's strangulation It is so important to go get oh I'm Blanking on the type of CT but there's a scan that they can do because a lot of time strangulation The

[00:15:24] Really severe damage causes it shows up later. It shows up sometimes a way down the road so it's good to have that Base line CT because sometimes they can find it or they can do a comparative one Down the road to say like while this occurred

[00:15:40] The strangulation occurred and this was the baseline and now six months later This is the damage That has grown That's really good to know. I didn't know that there was an anonymous aspect to that because I know just from hearing you talk like

[00:15:57] And responding to these things with your volunteer work that's a scary situation They just for traumatized now they're in the hospital and there's a nurse like Poken around with consent but you may not know what you want to do with that point in time

[00:16:10] Super cool that you can still gather all the evidence and answer all the questions and yeah Photos taking that you want to have taken and then it's still anonymous and if you decide

[00:16:20] Six months later or whatever the timeframe is that you can circle back to that yeah, I always encourage Survivors of any sort of trauma be it sexual or domestic violence too

[00:16:32] If they can do it safely for their own mental health go get the exam and even if it's anonymous just get it documented because you you never know

[00:16:41] If you're gonna decide one day like I'm gonna go get this person in a court of law and it's it's good to have the data so Just to to sum up and wrap up Michaela's question you need empathy

[00:16:55] You need the ability to connect with people and build rapport with them You need that educator heart and ability to communicate really effectively and clearly Just being able to stay calm and grounded in patient with someone who's potentially freaking out or can't

[00:17:11] Speak or you know whatever and then just knowing you're you're gonna Run into stuff that's gonna be horrible and you're gonna want to go You know tear into someone but you can't you're gonna want to go save the whole world but

[00:17:27] We can't buy virtue of humans being humans It can make it better, but I don't think we'll ever fix it all and you just you got to be at a good place Within yourself if it all possible so that taking care of people

[00:17:39] Doesn't put you in a situation where now you're drowning too and I love the same examiners. I've met they are usually just really grounded sweet Loving kind people where you're like um can you be my new best friend?

[00:17:56] I'm so grateful for them and the work they do and the traumas that they've A lot of them have pushed through to be that safe person for someone else So mad respect for all of them and there's a ton of training and then you have to do like

[00:18:11] I think there's continuing education and hours and all of that to maintain your sane License or whatever it's called for them certification So they don't just throw you to the wolves like here's your checklist go do it like they teach you how to

[00:18:25] Educate a survivor in that emergency crisis moment about their options how different parts of the exam might be helpful in the future oh and that's another thing baby. Oh, I love this too

[00:18:39] A good saying examiner is going to make sure when you leave that medical setting that medical facility You have options in front of you like in your hand for medical providers that you need like specialists

[00:18:50] For follow-up care mental health they're probably gonna connect you with the local crisis organization like There's just a lot of really beneficial things for the survivor that comes out of a saying exam

[00:19:01] So if you or someone you know is kicking back and forth like should I or should I not go get one Please do go get one you can always leave if it gets to be too much

[00:19:11] But you're gonna get holistic care. It's not just let's look at all the forensics They want you the the same examiner once you to walk out of that hospital or wherever they are with resources and knowledge of your next couple steps to take care of yourself

[00:19:29] They're gonna care about you as a whole person not just the trauma that happened to you Yeah, and it sounds like this is one of those careers where soft skills are super So important or you know that's that's a good way to excel in your profession is

[00:19:46] And this is by no means the same but like even in my line of work and like working with computers and IT and Cyber security and stuff like Those people are traditionally not don't have very good soft skills

[00:19:59] And when you find someone that has the knowledge and the soft skills is like oh That's the golden ticket right there and it sounds like a saying nurse would be the same way You're gonna need to be really technically proficient

[00:20:11] Mm-hmm from like the nursing side of things but then also Yeah, the soft skills and you can be I think it's called a medical examiner So it's not just nurses. I think medical doctors can also get that certification

[00:20:25] It makes um so yeah, it's not just limited to nurses and these and deos can get it too Great question, Mikhail, I thank you for asking and Thanks for everything you do to take care of people. So the next question we have is from

[00:20:40] Nikola or Nikola, I'm not sure I'd have pronounced that and the question is can you please give us the name of the lawyer Referring to in the four years in court episode Okay, so if you're talking about the

[00:20:53] Assistant states attorney who is in charge of prosecuting in the case I can't give you her name. I'm not gonna I'm gonna allow her her privacy on that I think that's important But since it's an elected official I will tell you that the the states attorney

[00:21:10] Who handled that appeal process? I think very poorly her name is Kimberly Fox. I think Fox has two X's She's um, I think she's nearing the end of her term or has needed her term. I'm not sure But you can Google her she did other questionable stuff

[00:21:29] Uh, with letting people off the hook for crimes. It wasn't just my brother so You know That sucks I think I'd Seen something about her so the name was familiar. There was a big story because there was a celebrity

[00:21:45] Who had sexually assaulted her her assomal and she let him get away with the very low sentence same Some like her brother So everyone was up in arms over that as they should be But yeah

[00:22:00] We got one more question before we dive into the episode. Let's another question from a Kayla I was wondering if it is appropriate to ask for general timeline like years or ages of your experiences

[00:22:13] So for that, I'm gonna refer you back to episodes four through eight where I tell my story Well now just occurs to me that I did tell people skip that if it would be too triggering so I was like late-stage toddler when the grooming started and then I

[00:22:35] Kind of know because of objects I owned that had dates in them like books how old I was during the time the actual rape occurred and So it was between like late toddler to I don't have any more memories of assault after the age of 11

[00:22:54] I reported when I was 26 The case concluded right after my 30th birthday and I think those are the big timelines PTSD treatment was like 20th 223ish Okay, yeah somewhere in there and Then it took a couple years from recovering from PTSD until I figured out

[00:23:27] I was ready to report and figure out how to report But yeah, those are the general timelines and in terms of like If you're asking in general is it appropriate to ask a survivor that

[00:23:39] I mean, I put my story out there on the world wide web so I mean I expect questions like this general best practice I would say Not unless you know the survivor really well or

[00:23:54] Like if someone shares their story with you and they don't include those sorts of things I would just leave it and I know I know that's like a something people get super curious about because it helps them frame it like

[00:24:08] People probably ask for very good non-malicious reasons because they're trying to frame like where were you Developmentally what kind of support structure did you have you know those sorts of things But generally when it comes to like asking survivors super duper

[00:24:27] Nitty gritty details unless they're like me and they've just like put their whole story out there publicly I would say kind of let the survivor tell you what they're ready to tell you when they're ready to tell you

[00:24:38] As you build rapport as you build a relationship with that person or if it's someone with whom you already have a really good relationship

[00:24:46] And they disclose to you that they've experienced sexual assault then I would say you have the connection in the report where you could probably ask them more questions, but I think kind of my rule of thumb is

[00:24:58] Let's survivor tell you what they want to tell you when they're ready to tell you and hold your detailed questions for For a time when you've built up some rapport with them if your intent is you're trying to figure out like their context where they were

[00:25:15] Developmentally frame it that way because a lot of times when we talk about sexual assault gosh, I'll never forget a friend and mentor when I first well I hadn't

[00:25:26] Hang on give me second. I'm doing timelines in my mind. I'd already been talking about sexual assault for a while actually by the time this person came into my life and but I was about to do a talk for a different demographic that I'd never done any

[00:25:41] Speaking events toward I was talking it through with her and she was like Amanda people like those Slicious details and it sucks. I don't know why but people is like a train wreck and they just all they want all the

[00:25:53] Nitty gritty little details don't give it to them like they don't need to know that which is why I don't go into graphic details about My trauma when and if I need to I do like my doctors know graphic details

[00:26:06] The lawyer who prosecuted my case knows graphic details the judges hers had new graphic details There are times when it's incredibly important To share the graphic details but a lot of times people just like they have almost this

[00:26:22] Slicious interest and you know, oh what happened and I don't think they're like necessarily bad people who are trying to do something malicious maybe it's just their very curious or this is unknown to them

[00:26:35] Yeah, I think people are just generally curious and there's definitely times when it's more appropriate to be curious

[00:26:42] This is kind of one of those times where you got to play it very carefully. I'm giving all of that background to say a lot of times survivors will kind of be on the lookout

[00:26:52] To see like oh is this person just trying to like find out the details of like how this person went about raping me or assaulting me And for good reason of course the survivors are gonna like that so if you're trying to find out context

[00:27:07] That is you know important and helpful and pertinent like developmental stage support networks all that kind of stuff Frame it like that say Are you comfortable sharing how old you were when that happened because I'm trying to empathize and I'm trying to like

[00:27:22] Put the right framing on this so I know like was your brain fully developed when this happened to you or were you a child Trying to figure this out without a fully formed brain

[00:27:32] So just if you're gonna ask those more detailed questions that the survivor hasn't offered up of their own accord Frame why you're asking it so the survivor knows you're not just like after the gossip

[00:27:46] Side of their story. Thanks for taking the time to answer those questions and we've got a huge backlog of questions and People are curious What I do this is why I'm getting a PhD as an education focus because

[00:28:02] I can talk about these things without going into a mental health tailspin and one of my favorite things in life is Watching someone have a light bulb moment and figure out like how to do something

[00:28:17] Even better than they already were yeah, or how to approach something even better than they already were so I feel like folks who listen to this podcast give it am about these issues and Actually want to like the kinds of questions we get to me signals that

[00:28:36] These are people who want to learn how to be safe people for others around issues like oppression and cults and Violence and assault and those sorts of things so I love these questions I love taking time to answer them. This is my true passion in life

[00:28:53] So thank you for the questions definitely seem to have two demographics it's either This is all very similar to their own life and so it's comforting and supportive Validating and then you've got other people that don't have those experiences, but they're still very

[00:29:09] They want to know how to show up for folks who have which is so important. I was driving and You said something about getting locked out of the house And then there was a whole I was kind of

[00:29:26] asking questions around that because I was like what do you mean you got locked out of the house? Then you told me a story about Living at home Maybe it was because we just recieved the house or something

[00:29:39] But I like casually mentioned to Kyle not thinking it was a big deal that even has an adult or late team Living in ricken crisis house. I wasn't allowed to have a key. I used to be

[00:29:53] Stupid allergic to dogs and cats now fortunately my hormones have circled out of that I was allergic to dog saliva So it wasn't just their dander if a dog was breathing if a dog had air going in and out of it's mouth or nose

[00:30:12] I was gonna have an allergic reaction around it And there was one time I was living at ricken crisis so and I went somewhere and there was a dog and I had a violent allergic reaction to it

[00:30:27] I had to go to warm or like I had to go get all the meds and everything I knew what to do for this one so I didn't go to the yard. I got all the meds

[00:30:35] And then I had to change my whole outfit because it had been around a dog and I was like allergic to my clothes now And I couldn't go home Because the whole family was at a basketball. It was a Saturday

[00:30:47] They were at basketball for my younger brothers and no one would come home to let me into the house Because I wasn't allowed to have a key so I had to go to Walmart and buy a whole new outfit that day and

[00:31:02] Kyle was like wait what you didn't have a key to the house? No, I was not allowed to have a key For whatever reason they made duplicates of the keys for my siblings and I didn't get one

[00:31:15] I was not allowed to have one oh that that was the part that I was kind of dumbfounded by because it's definitely seen it like targeting Well, and I was like wait, doesn't that normal?

[00:31:27] Well, I mean you think about it like all your other siblings had a key and like the older ones did Right, but not you even though you live there and you were on adult I wasn't I and You were like if I showed up home late. Oh

[00:31:43] Chris yeah Chris had a thing that I would get locked out of the house overnight if I wasn't home by curfew And this was and so I was always I would always meet your as home But I never had a curfew because I didn't have a driver's license

[00:31:57] I couldn't go anywhere can do anything you know all that stuff and I didn't have friends So when my accent I started dating He worked Night shift he worked overnight so like our schedules were totally flipped around

[00:32:17] My job was during the day and his was at night and then there was like this Moment in time where we could he would pick me up and we would go to Denny's because it was the only thing open

[00:32:30] And he would eat and I would like sit there and we talk and you know Just hang out it was like five minutes from my bio parents house and then he would just drop me off and

[00:32:42] He would go back to his place and sleep and I would go to Rick and Chris's place and sleep But Chris had it in her mind that I just wanted to get pregnant Which again we've talked about this she did not know me so she started

[00:33:00] Giving me a curfew And I forget like I guess it didn't work with my ex's schedule or something but she would tell me if I didn't get home by that time She was gonna lock me out of the house overnight

[00:33:15] Which is so funny because if you think about it Her brain was not logicing very well the math did not math because if she locked me out of the house and I was with my ex

[00:33:25] What's the likelihood that I would just go spend the night at my ex's house right? I mean you have to go somewhere Just make you ready to sleep on the front steps I guess the next morning like no you're gonna go Call somebody or whoever's

[00:33:39] Can pick you up they're gonna you're gonna sleep at their house Which yeah in this case would have been your ex He was living in his parents house so they did the thing where they like converted the garage into Like yeah, it had its own entrance and everything

[00:33:56] So he could coming go from the house without going through the front door or whatever, but Like we were such good kids if that had happened I would have like Spent the night in his sister's room or on the couch And his parents would have known

[00:34:16] Oh, and his mom would have made me breakfast in the morning. Yeah. No, I mean That's what we were talking about. I started asking all his questions because You know when I was in Third grade

[00:34:30] So in my younger years I lived in California and I had lived close enough to school That I would like ride my bike to school and ride my bike home After school so class lets out at two o'clock or whatever two thirty

[00:34:44] I ride home and I'm home alone from three to five or whatever when they got off work and came home And so like I had a key to the house at like seven or whatever third grade is I remember that. Is that normal?

[00:35:00] I can't have keys to the house. I think so I don't really call ever like anybody ever saying well, I don't have a key to the house So what I do remember is like a lot of people hide

[00:35:12] Have those like little rocks in the garden or whatever and the kid knows where that keys The hidden key is that and so like that might be their key is they just know where the spare key is

[00:35:26] No, but yeah, that that was just one example of things where I was just like that's You're that's not normal. It created a lot of issues like If no one was home Like I could only Get back into the house if someone was home right and

[00:35:44] I couldn't lock the dead bolts if I left because I needed the key to do that from outside So I was kind of stuck and I could only enter or exit the house if people were home

[00:35:57] And it made things very complicated because also I don't think ricking Chris like me, but then also they told my siblings I was bad so my siblings

[00:36:08] I don't know. I don't think they were super fond of me either yeah, I mean it definitely sounds like you were singled out If the older kids also could come and go and had a key

[00:36:19] This is the same thing with you not getting a car and a driver's license at the same age as everybody else does I feel like with parents Like you they have schedules like oh you turn this age you get this thing

[00:36:31] Yeah, this age there's milestones and like every kid filters through the It was all based on how like if you were in favor with ricking Chris and I was just never in favor course with Chris in particular and Yeah, so

[00:36:49] So I had to do stuff like that and for someone where money was so tightly we've talked about And what I don't know one of the episodes about my life It it was a pretty significant financial hardship to to go to Walmart even and buy a new outfit

[00:37:09] Like sweatpants and a sweatshirt. That's what I bought sweatpants and a sweatshirt nothing fancy That was back when Walmart did like five dollars pieces of clothing that was a hardship For me to do that because no one would come let me in the house

[00:37:24] No one was gonna leave the basketball game and And yeah, drive 20 minutes. I have a job But also you can't get into the house

[00:37:31] Which no one had to have a job? I was required to have a job, but I couldn't have a driver's license or a car or a key to the house But your job prospects were a lot more limited. Oh, yeah, it wasn't like You can go

[00:37:44] Get a professional job. No, I was doing manual labor Like this so though school year I had slate limer professionalist jobs one was manual labor But the summer was just a hundred percent manual labor Yeah, so like they paid minimum wage in 2000 and six

[00:38:05] You know that wasn't a whole lot. Yeah, so It just and it took a lot more like mental gymnastics and planning You know if I need to go somewhere come home or get food or you know whatever It always had to be On

[00:38:23] Yeah, so was there or other things that were like this that were weird like rules? When I was younger There were a lot of things like if we wanted Our parents attention like if we were in public or if people were over at our house

[00:38:40] We couldn't walk up to them and ask for something We had to walk up and stand behind them into the side and put our hand on their shoulder To signal that we needed them and then at their convenience when they were ready

[00:38:52] They would acknowledge us and let us know if you know we could ask them a question Not normal Well, I'm trying to think like on one hand it makes sense if you're trying to teach a kid to like not interrupt you on the other hand it's a little

[00:39:10] Little overly controlling I think like a little cold human Yeah, I mean you think about kids Well, so time they just come up there and they start talking on your shirt like hey, hey mom mom you know and like that's the bad way of doing that

[00:39:24] So yeah, it's a little interesting that they're I guess is more about how they went about trying to Teach you a appropriate ways to get their attention was like to stand behind them and put your hand on their shoulder and

[00:39:42] As we sit and talk about these things I kind of have a piffinies Shocking I know there was a lot of it like squashing you and

[00:39:52] That was baked into how they did training and discipline in the cold. It wasn't this is to teach you how to be polite and not interrupt It was to teach you that Like basically you were as a child inferior

[00:40:07] And not as important as the conversation your parent was having and I think you can teach a kid how to be polite Well also making sure they know they're more important than the conversation you're having if it's you know now

[00:40:21] Granted if we have kids and I'm on the phone with someone who's in crisis because they just got raped like The kid would have to be in severe crisis for me to pick them over the conversation but that's temporary

[00:40:35] You know that I think the military's really good at teaching you temporary priority shifts Like your family is always the most important thing But when you're deployed staying alive It's the most important thing taking care of the mission is the most important thing

[00:40:50] But as soon as you go back after those you know how relaunch your deployment is because back to your family It's the most important thing and the military teaches you to communicate that to your family Like you are my most important thing

[00:41:02] But there's gonna be this this limited period of time where I got to go do this thing Where I can't be on the phone with you all the time You're gonna have to figure some stuff out without me but when I come home

[00:41:14] We're gonna be right back in it and you're the most important thing so I think there's a way to teach kids like social dynamics without Like everything in the court was about you like you don't matter

[00:41:28] You are not important you don't matter god matters and you don't matter or Bill matters and you don't matter or your father matters and you don't matter or the adults matter And you don't matter it was just it was very hierarchical in that sense of

[00:41:43] Worth as well and the least worthy were the children and the most worthy was Bill and Like men and I think it's interesting Again from an educator mindset In my field of work where we're talking about changing social dynamics so that We reduce

[00:42:05] Violence we talk a lot about kids and how it's so important to not in a creepy way again like target children And teach children how to treat others with dignity and respect because if you can instill that knowledge in them young When they're 18 21 34 56

[00:42:29] They're probably still gonna be treating people with dignity and respect and the funny thing about IVLP is They were so focused on adult men like IVLP is No-where near the size that used to be in terms of people who are prior to the cult

[00:42:45] They do not have the reach they once had all of these things because all of like we all grew up and got the fuck out of there

[00:42:51] You know, yeah, I mean that's a good at good point that I didn't think of the like their their demographic was the men And they they tried like we had children's this and we had the songs and we had the character quality games and all of those things

[00:43:04] But we were basically taught we were nothing We did not matter and even the boys were taught To a certain extent yes, but then they grew up and and the system treated them better and better than oh They got right for women

[00:43:16] We were treated worse and worse though. There we got because as soon as puberty hit like now you're just a sex slave to someone

[00:43:22] And we're sure of it behind your parents back you're doing things and none of us like even you want to do so that was funny but Yeah, like they they had a focus on children and that there was stuff for us to do

[00:43:37] But we were basically taught we were absolutely worthless nothing like the men were more important the grown-ups were more important Of course we left of course we all grew up in left that environment

[00:43:48] Their brainwashing was far more effective on adults because it was giving people who already had Positional power in that they were adults or they were men in a patriarchal society or whatever They were empowering those people

[00:44:05] And so yeah, it was a very great place to be if you were an adult and a male in particular I was thinking about that The strategy doesn't work when you're trying to increase your numbers But you're belittling half the demographic

[00:44:24] Like hard court well, I mean like the girls are being extremely oppressed and being told they have no worth But it will end the women but then also the young boys because like the young children and the adult women right but even if you just say

[00:44:40] Well the the young girls have no reason to stay there Like why would they want to be in this environment? Well it takes two to reproduce and if half of those people are like Why the hell would I stay in this?

[00:44:56] Why would I get married to this dude that's gonna have all this power and authority and shame is me for everything and I have no rights and You know if they have

[00:45:07] Some ambition to do something else like this situation doesn't work for them the cult doesn't work for them And so naturally I feel like That was the flaw in the plan is you know the women leave and it dies out And I think a lot of

[00:45:26] Guys grew up and left as well We got more messages from men than I was expecting we have way more from women still But we've been getting messages from men as well which is

[00:45:39] Great, I love to see growth in here the stories of getting out of there right Like it's all right to them the whole system is right right it's in their favor men and so it takes a lot of awareness to leave that environment when it is so

[00:46:01] Adventages to you yes, that was where I was kind of surprised. It was like well it's surprising that you Had the awareness and you realized how hurtfully Environment wasn't general even though it benefits you

[00:46:16] Normously and you still left it so like that the guys yeah, yeah, but yeah, I feel like that's the kind of a flaw in the whole stretch And then I just realized that sitting here talking to you right now like huh interesting

[00:46:30] If you look at their whole reason for existing to like raise up this next generation No, maybe you should have treated the next generation with some dignity in respect Although I'm glad they didn't because now there not as effective as a cult because we all left

[00:46:46] But you know, oh please don't use this information to go start a cult What do you have the flaws on the strategy so what happens with that someone learns from it and does it better next time? I can't help this again like no, you've got a debriefid

[00:47:02] Any other weird things in your family? I mean so many but like That was a pretty good rabbit hole. We just went to yeah, I think a lot of the other ones when we do the the dating and court ship

[00:47:16] There are a lot of weird rules and not one and then it was just random stuff like we couldn't say shut up We couldn't say stupid we couldn't say

[00:47:24] Obviously any swear words we didn't know any swear words stuff we've talked about before like the eyes down if anyone Kissed in a movie we couldn't watch our rated movies. I don't know if we could even watch PG 13 rated movies like it had to be

[00:47:37] G or PG for the most part No Harry Potter no Lord of the Rings until later there's very little Physical affection in those types of movies there oh Kyle is more stream which girl

[00:47:51] It was that makes sense. I was just about to say like they're just fan fantasy movies and then I was like Oh, what that that was why yeah, that was why so yeah like the list of rules that are weird

[00:48:04] That's that's one that's a very long list but in terms of things like We walked out of the house and that I think that's the part that hit me was just like that was just targeting You were being locked out of the house

[00:48:17] But your sibling is weren't like your older siblings weren't or you know kids that they deemed old enough to have a key But you were the exception to the rule the same thing with the car and the driver's license like you were the exception to the rule

[00:48:31] Did we ever figure out why other than They just didn't like me they had to oppress me more because I had the big bad secret I mean that's how I always just interpreted it and how I kind of

[00:48:44] Gleaned that information from your stories is just like they just wanted to control you They didn't want you out of the house. They didn't want you going anywhere Apparently didn't want you to come back I don't like

[00:48:57] They just I think they just did everything they could to fuck you over It's really sad It's sad from the perspective that I really loved them and Had no plans to fuck them over That one's hard for me to wrap my mind around as a parent

[00:49:17] You just hate one of them so much that you just want them to go away That's to me how they treated you It was like all these other kids are fine, but you get treated differently and we're just kind of

[00:49:32] Leave you and hope you go away. That's kind of how I interpreted it So speaking of Harry Potter I forget which book it's in and I'm ashamed of myself. I should know this Just about memorized all seven books But Harry Potter is on to no goal

[00:49:52] Take him in and pseudo raise him At some point they're like we thought that if we just basically oppressed you and meet you miserable It would squash out the magic and I feel like that's kind of

[00:50:05] The approach Rick and Chris took of like let's just oppress her and keep her like second guessing and retreating All the time and then maybe that'll keep her quiet. I don't know and yeah, I had no plans to report Andy, I had no plans to

[00:50:22] ever make it public But they're treatment of me Pushed my mental health so far that I finally got therapy. I got the help I needed and finally got freedom from them and from the cold and realized How bad it was and how much they didn't care about me

[00:50:41] That I had been raped and it was a crime and all these things and that's why I eventually reported The funny thing what is if they just treated me well, I probably never would have reported Yeah, so it's a good thing they didn't treat me well

[00:50:55] I guess because I reported and I I am a totally different person on a totally different life trajectory Then I would have been had they just been nice to me

[00:51:06] I really think that their poor treatment of me was a really big part of pushing me to find something different Different people so Like this is a giant rabbit hole. We can keep going down so we'll stop there but it's I guess that's an interesting one

[00:51:26] And all of this because I told you about it having to go buy new clothes because it dawned I had an allergic reaction to a dog and I couldn't get back in the house I thought heard most these stories and

[00:51:38] You know when I do hear new ones they turn into episodes, so that's how we come up with content and obviously questions from people so Keep them coming and yeah, there's

[00:51:51] links in the description if you want to support the podcast and you can also leave us some rating reviews on all the platforms We still need to get our podcast pushed up to YouTube now that Google music's gone away

[00:52:06] But we will get that all figured out if people want to watch on YouTube until then we'll be back next Monday Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind Until next time

[00:52:19] Don't join a cult if you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode