37 - No Sex on Saturdays!

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast.

[00:00:05] I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the

[00:00:11] IBLP Cult which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs.

[00:00:17] I am Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned

[00:00:22] and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:30] Alright welcome back to the next episode.

[00:00:33] Before we get started today I just want to let you know there is an option out

[00:00:36] there to donate to the podcast if you feel so inclined and if you are enjoying this content

[00:00:41] there's a link in all of the episode descriptions so you can click in there or you can look

[00:00:48] on the website cultilefbehind.com.

[00:00:50] So with that being said, what do you have for us tonight Amanda?

[00:00:53] I'm so freaking excited.

[00:00:56] No sex on Saturdays!

[00:00:59] We found it!

[00:01:00] Thanks to a listener named Donna.

[00:01:02] She sent me a link to a blog and then with that information I did some more googling and

[00:01:09] I found an article that talks about Bill Gothard's sex rules for married couples because didn't

[00:01:17] you know Kyle that when you are married you need an unmarried man to tell you how

[00:01:23] to live your sex life?

[00:01:24] Or your pastor should be dictating when you have sex.

[00:01:27] Yes, that is also very creepy and weird.

[00:01:32] I just feel so validated that this is real because I remember reading something at some

[00:01:39] point growing up and like shutting the book closed because it talked about sex and we

[00:01:44] were definitely not supposed to know about that as young people.

[00:01:48] Yeah, so it's real.

[00:01:50] The memory is real.

[00:01:51] This is amazing.

[00:01:52] And it's also cool that as this has gotten bigger and we've gotten more listeners

[00:01:57] there's people are sending stuff in and episodes where like I don't remember what that's called.

[00:02:03] Someone will send us a comment or text out.

[00:02:05] You guys are awesome, we love you.

[00:02:07] Help us do research so this one has been...

[00:02:10] Someone's sending like lamb chops and we've gotten so many answers to why were my little

[00:02:14] ponies bad?

[00:02:15] I feel like at some point we need to do maybe some bonus content that's just

[00:02:21] my little ponies with all of the stories because oh my gosh my little ponies were

[00:02:26] according to the cult so evil for so many reasons.

[00:02:30] So many reasons Kyle.

[00:02:32] And this one in particular has been an episode we've had on our list of like this is one

[00:02:37] of the topics we're going to do and we haven't been able to...

[00:02:39] But we'd like to do but I couldn't find the verification.

[00:02:43] I didn't want to just go with unverified material.

[00:02:47] Thanks for the help everybody.

[00:02:48] We love you Donna, thank you.

[00:02:50] This is amazing.

[00:02:51] I mean it's terrible.

[00:02:52] Don't get me right.

[00:02:53] This is fucking terrible.

[00:02:56] It's also awesome.

[00:02:58] I'm pretty excited about this.

[00:03:00] You were giving a laughing for doing all this research and I was just like I'm not

[00:03:04] going to look at it.

[00:03:05] I'm just going to see what happens here so I'm quite excited about this as well.

[00:03:09] OK, so I didn't find the seminar materials but I found articles and then

[00:03:16] Donna sent the blog that basically quote seminar materials and Bill

[00:03:21] Gauthard's teachings around sex for married couples because if you're not married

[00:03:28] you definitely shouldn't be having sex unless your bill or one of his brothers

[00:03:31] because the rules don't apply to you.

[00:03:35] So the article that I was able to find after reading the blog post Donna sent us

[00:03:42] it's called a study in evolving fatism.

[00:03:47] The Coltick leanings of Bill Gauthard's teachings by G Richard Fisher.

[00:03:54] This is this is going to be good.

[00:03:56] I mean it's it's so nicely broken down.

[00:03:58] I should probably put a link to this article in the description.

[00:04:01] You can you can have more fun.

[00:04:03] This can be your homework guys.

[00:04:06] It can be homework for a podcast to listen to.

[00:04:09] All right.

[00:04:10] So under dogmatic assertions on arbitrary matters.

[00:04:16] That's the heading within the article.

[00:04:19] Kyle your face.

[00:04:20] So this this brings so much joy to my soul.

[00:04:22] You don't even understand.

[00:04:23] OK, I'm going to read from this article at his advanced seminars in 1983.

[00:04:31] Gauthard introduced sex regulations based upon Old Testament commands under

[00:04:38] the session titled six purposes principles and keys to fulfillment in the marriage relationship.

[00:04:44] He told married couples to abstain from physical relations.

[00:04:47] One during the wife's menstrual cycle to seven days after the cycle.

[00:04:53] Three 40 days after the birth of a son for 80 days after the birth of a daughter and

[00:04:59] five the evening prior to worship.

[00:05:02] You heard it here folks no sex on Saturdays.

[00:05:06] Kyle we break that one all the time.

[00:05:07] Listen, that means no sex on like Tuesdays too.

[00:05:09] Did you guys do Wednesday night services?

[00:05:11] So there's a lot of time.

[00:05:14] Now all right, that's a lot of time you're missing between this the menstrual cycle

[00:05:20] and the week after the cycle.

[00:05:23] That's like half a month shot there.

[00:05:25] And then yeah, if you've got Sunday and Wednesday worship services,

[00:05:30] no sex on Saturdays or Tuesdays.

[00:05:32] Mm hmm.

[00:05:33] How are we supposed to repopulate the world for Christ, Kyle?

[00:05:38] Under these stringent rules and then like why?

[00:05:42] Why is it 40 days after the birth of a son and 80 days after the birth of a daughter?

[00:05:46] I have no that one doesn't make sense to me.

[00:05:48] You think it would be the other way around like, oh, she had a boy.

[00:05:51] Yay, celebratory sex 40 days later.

[00:05:54] Or it's the opposite.

[00:05:55] And it's like, oh, that was a fuck up.

[00:05:57] It was a girl.

[00:05:58] So you need to wait longer in like a reset.

[00:06:02] Or, you know, and it was like only 40 days after a boy.

[00:06:06] Like that was a good timing.

[00:06:08] Like, oh my gosh.

[00:06:10] So there are more.

[00:06:12] There are more sexual guidelines in the 1986 volume research

[00:06:18] and principles of life advanced seminar textbook.

[00:06:22] And yeah, the guy who wrote the article is like, if you read that,

[00:06:26] you'll probably find the rules intrusive and offensive.

[00:06:29] Oh shit.

[00:06:31] What most would feel is personal and private between a couple and their physician.

[00:06:35] Gothered spells out because obviously, I mean, the man cared about everything

[00:06:40] from constipation to hydration to, you know, whether or not

[00:06:46] you're having sex correctly around the woman's menstrual cycle.

[00:06:49] How you cut your hair and how you dress and your earrings.

[00:06:52] I mean, your push up bra.

[00:06:55] And oh my gosh.

[00:06:59] Oh, this is hilarious.

[00:07:01] Then the guy continues elaborating on the benefits of abstinence.

[00:07:05] Gothered includes the strangest testimonial about abstinence

[00:07:09] even after a woman's cycle stopped following a hysterectomy.

[00:07:14] Oh.

[00:07:15] Mm hmm.

[00:07:17] And Gothered suggests that a man keep track of his wife's menstrual cycle

[00:07:21] and use it as a reminder of the sufferings and death of Jesus.

[00:07:26] What?

[00:07:27] Uh huh.

[00:07:29] I don't know.

[00:07:31] I'm a little bit lost there, too.

[00:07:35] And then there are testimonials about how abstinence

[00:07:37] helped couples who were barren to have children and also of healthier,

[00:07:42] stronger children born because of abstinence at certain times of the month.

[00:07:48] Huh.

[00:07:49] Does there like any justification for any of this?

[00:07:52] Or is it just this is his idea and that's all there is to it?

[00:07:56] I haven't heard like a reason why.

[00:07:58] No, I mean, it's all anecdotal as usual, like one person,

[00:08:03] you know, had a thing happen and then therefore Bill Gothered had to teach.

[00:08:09] Well, I think it's interesting that in the article,

[00:08:11] didn't he say something like based on one account of something?

[00:08:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:16] So that seems to be a trend.

[00:08:18] And then other reasons you should practice abstinence

[00:08:22] as a married couple, as it turns out.

[00:08:27] Infections and irregular cycles can be cleared up after proper abstinence.

[00:08:33] Persistent bladder infections will stop when abstinence begins

[00:08:38] and the danger of genetic abnormalities is reduced

[00:08:43] with abstinence.

[00:08:44] So y'all, you're having sex way too much.

[00:08:46] You got to slow down.

[00:08:47] But also you got to speed up and repopulate the world for Christ.

[00:08:50] You have to have your quiver full.

[00:08:52] Very mixed messaging here.

[00:08:53] Like I'm very confused.

[00:08:54] Are we supposed to have sex and repopulate the world for Christ?

[00:08:57] Or are we not supposed to have sex?

[00:08:58] Kyle, like this is this is a very confusing messaging.

[00:09:02] It is a little contradictory, but I yeah, I'm not going to try to.

[00:09:08] Justify his thoughts.

[00:09:09] I guess he was just saying, don't do it all the time.

[00:09:12] Just do it these specific times that I say then you're going to get pregnant.

[00:09:16] Definitely not.

[00:09:17] The same thing like should you continue having sex after the like menopause?

[00:09:22] No, like if you're pregnant.

[00:09:24] Oh, like keep going or do you stop?

[00:09:27] I don't know.

[00:09:30] What do you do?

[00:09:32] I am not sure.

[00:09:33] OK, keep going.

[00:09:34] We'll see if it shows up in the article there.

[00:09:36] So so that's it on that from this.

[00:09:38] But the blog post that Donna sent us has some real amazing tidbits

[00:09:45] from Michelle Duggar and how she teaches young women to have sex

[00:09:53] with their husbands after marriage.

[00:09:56] OK, say yes to sex even when you're tired.

[00:09:59] This is from Lovejoy and feminism.

[00:10:03] I'm not. I forget how to say is it.

[00:10:05] Pathios, that's the website.

[00:10:08] It's pathios, but pathios.

[00:10:12] It's Greek. I feel like I should know this.

[00:10:14] Failing. I'm failing as a former.

[00:10:16] I only speak English, so I'm going to butcher it and just keep moving on with life.

[00:10:20] Yeah, so.

[00:10:23] This was from a Valentine's Day thing the Duggars did.

[00:10:27] So these were like their tips for couples.

[00:10:29] Say yes to sex even when you're tired.

[00:10:32] Shouldn't it just say say yes to sex all the time?

[00:10:35] Wasn't that the IVLP way?

[00:10:37] Mm hmm.

[00:10:37] So and I hate like y'all say hubby all you want.

[00:10:42] Like I do not judge when people say hubby.

[00:10:45] I personally refuse to refer to my spouse's hubby.

[00:10:49] I forgot about that. I just refuse.

[00:10:50] But this is a quote from Michelle.

[00:10:55] In your marriage, there will be times you're going to be very exhausted.

[00:10:58] Oh, this was this was the advice a friend gave Michelle in 1984.

[00:11:02] The friend said in your marriage,

[00:11:03] there will be times you're going to be very exhausted.

[00:11:06] Your hubby, Barf, comes home after a hard day's work.

[00:11:10] You get the baby to bed and he is going to be looking forward to that time with you.

[00:11:14] She's talking about sex.

[00:11:16] Be available.

[00:11:17] Anyone can fix him lunch, but only one person can meet the physical need of love

[00:11:21] that he has and you always need to be available when he calls.

[00:11:24] I just love how this completely ignores the fact that women like sex too

[00:11:28] and women need sex too and women enjoy sex too.

[00:11:31] Like what the actual.

[00:11:33] Well, I mean, there's that like that is a whole other category of nonsense.

[00:11:37] But like why are my needs you need to be available for my needs?

[00:11:42] Kyle, that's not possible in the IPLP.

[00:11:44] Oh, that's true.

[00:11:45] Good thing we're not part of IPLP.

[00:11:48] Huh?

[00:11:49] Um, at the time as a young bride to be the blogger continues,

[00:11:55] Michelle, Michelle said she couldn't imagine ever not wanting to be available.

[00:12:00] But with kids, she got tired.

[00:12:03] I'm kind of just paraphrasing here

[00:12:06] and realized that exhaustion can extinguish romance.

[00:12:11] So, yeah, that was a lifesaver for their marriage,

[00:12:15] her being available even when she was tired.

[00:12:18] That's what she told today, moms,

[00:12:21] which must be a publication of some kind.

[00:12:24] Interesting. Yeah, it's a lifesaver.

[00:12:26] It's a lifesaver for you to just, you know,

[00:12:28] doesn't sound like your husband take advantage of you.

[00:12:31] Yeah, it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship dynamic there.

[00:12:36] And of course, of course the threat in this teaching is

[00:12:40] that if you are not available to your husband at all times,

[00:12:43] even when you're exhausted, he'll become discontent and wander.

[00:12:46] Like a poor little child, like a little puppy boy with no self control.

[00:12:52] I just, you know, I feel like men should be mad at the cold.

[00:12:56] Women have so many reasons to be mad at the cold,

[00:12:58] but the cold fucking infantilizes men like,

[00:13:01] you can't keep it in your pants.

[00:13:02] You poor little baby thing, you have no self control.

[00:13:06] Like why are the men not upset about this?

[00:13:11] I mean, I feel like the men should be really upset about this.

[00:13:14] I think the men that were in the cult were not very strong men

[00:13:19] and didn't care about that.

[00:13:21] And they were like, oh, this is an easy way to get what I want.

[00:13:23] And I really don't care when anybody else wants.

[00:13:25] So this is perfect.

[00:13:26] Somebody with some dignity and respect would have a problem with that.

[00:13:31] Mm hmm.

[00:13:33] So going back to, I think in there,

[00:13:36] a reference something after a hysterectomy,

[00:13:40] elaborate on that anymore.

[00:13:42] No, just that you should continue to practice abstinence

[00:13:46] even after the bleeding portion of the cycle has stopped due to a hysterectomy.

[00:13:55] OK. Yeah.

[00:13:57] I think I read somewhere else that like the waiting and the

[00:14:03] the not having access to sex all the time was something about, like,

[00:14:08] I don't know, developing godly character because of waiting.

[00:14:11] Yeah, I mean, I've heard stuff like that where, you know,

[00:14:14] you get brain fog because all you have is sex on the mind.

[00:14:16] So you practice abstinence so that you have a clear mind.

[00:14:20] And I don't think it actually works like that.

[00:14:23] Don't think repressing your sexual urges is going to give you a clear mind.

[00:14:27] It just drives you a little crazy instead.

[00:14:30] So, yeah, that was kind of some false.

[00:14:35] False church ideology, I guess.

[00:14:38] I mean, there's a lot of weird stuff in church around sex and like abstinence

[00:14:42] and, you know, I'm sure a lot of people listening

[00:14:47] still attend church and go through

[00:14:50] and hear that those messages, but.

[00:14:54] You better not be having sex on Saturdays then, folks.

[00:14:57] If you go to church or Tuesdays,

[00:15:00] or Tuesdays if you have Wednesday night services is very important.

[00:15:04] So what do you remember about this?

[00:15:07] Or do you just remember there being something?

[00:15:09] I just yeah, I was too young and then, you know, I couldn't know about such things.

[00:15:14] So that that's I just remembered like this

[00:15:18] no sex on Saturday concept and well, I mean, that's a hard part about doing this podcast.

[00:15:24] It's like, I mean, that guy is referencing

[00:15:26] a advanced seminar, right?

[00:15:29] Advanced seminar in 83, which was pre Internet.

[00:15:33] The Internet was started in 80.

[00:15:37] It was in the early 80s, but it was a DARPA project.

[00:15:40] And so it was only military stuff.

[00:15:42] So like the Internet existed technically,

[00:15:46] but it wasn't widespread yet.

[00:15:47] So there's no documentation for this stuff or if it is, it's written stuff

[00:15:51] and you got to find it in books.

[00:15:53] So trying to find stuff like this is

[00:15:56] we're kind of relying on people that were alive back then

[00:15:58] that were attending these seminars in the late 70s and in the 80s.

[00:16:04] So it's kind of neat to find that article.

[00:16:06] Yeah, if somebody was like, oh, I remember

[00:16:09] in 83, we're at the advanced seminar.

[00:16:12] Bill started spouting ridiculous shit again.

[00:16:15] So this the blog continues by saying

[00:16:21] interestingly, Jewish tradition actually encourages having sex on the Sabbath.

[00:16:26] So that's interesting.

[00:16:27] So the blogger and I'll try to find the individual's name

[00:16:32] said they suspect

[00:16:33] God, they're took the prohibition against having sex prior to worship

[00:16:37] from medieval Catholicism, which prohibited sex on the eve

[00:16:41] of receiving the sacrament of the Eucharist.

[00:16:44] And then the author commented how odd it is given

[00:16:48] God, there's anti Catholicism stance.

[00:16:52] So that tracks

[00:16:55] taking some religious thing and making it his own and claiming,

[00:16:58] you know, he's pulling a little bit of truth out of something,

[00:17:01] but he's also anti Catholicism,

[00:17:05] but he's going to steal one little tiny part of their teachings.

[00:17:09] The author is someone named Libby Ann,

[00:17:12] and this article is from February of 2014.

[00:17:16] But the other thing that I always come back to with weird rules

[00:17:22] is Bill just like control.

[00:17:24] He was like, what's another thing I can control?

[00:17:27] Oh, sex. Yeah, it'd be great.

[00:17:29] Let's control that some more.

[00:17:32] I don't even understand why.

[00:17:34] And it was a way he could exert control over men.

[00:17:37] Well, I mean, there is.

[00:17:38] Yeah, that's true.

[00:17:40] But like how is he knocking on people's doors on Saturday night?

[00:17:43] Like, I better not hear anything happening in there.

[00:17:46] Like, there's no way to actually regulate that.

[00:17:48] Yeah, but like, you'll to such a big deal and a cold.

[00:17:51] And someone knowing or finding

[00:17:55] because you have to confess everything all the time in I.B.L.P.

[00:17:59] Like you're constantly confessing your sins to someone.

[00:18:03] So I guess you would just confess to whomever

[00:18:09] that you had sex with your partner on Saturday before worship on Sunday

[00:18:14] and that like that's something you were working on

[00:18:17] and you had to surrender it to Christ or something.

[00:18:20] Like, that's how those conversations would typically go down.

[00:18:23] You're laughing and I'm like dead serious.

[00:18:24] You don't understand.

[00:18:25] I'm sure it is. This is real.

[00:18:27] I'm laughing a little bit because, like, in my professional career,

[00:18:31] like I work in cybersecurity and I have to come up with these controls

[00:18:35] to like prevent whatever bad thing from happening.

[00:18:38] If there's not a technical way for me to actually enforce that

[00:18:42] and I'm just going to write some policy that says you shall not do this.

[00:18:47] It's like there's not a whole lot you can do there.

[00:18:50] And like, you can't control people and they may or may not do it

[00:18:54] and just like writing it down saying you shall not, you know,

[00:18:57] log into your personal email on your computer and your work computer.

[00:19:01] You got to drink bigger, Kyle.

[00:19:02] Like this is why you would not succeed as a cult leader.

[00:19:06] No, I wouldn't because I.

[00:19:08] Yeah. To me, I looked at that and was just like,

[00:19:10] there's no way for him to enforce that. So why even bother?

[00:19:12] It doesn't matter.

[00:19:13] Yeah. Like you just there's an opportunity for control that you take it

[00:19:17] and then you just create an environment with so much fear and guilt

[00:19:21] that people will confess it.

[00:19:22] And then that's another thing you have control over, like, oh, they're shame.

[00:19:26] I wonder if you like sat around was just like, I did it.

[00:19:31] Nobody's having sex on Saturdays, just because I said so.

[00:19:35] Like everybody's showing up to Sunday morning servers horny

[00:19:40] because they didn't have sex last night.

[00:19:42] OK, so like I think that the idea

[00:19:45] what I remember seeing as a kid was like, it would distract you

[00:19:48] from worship the next morning.

[00:19:50] I feel like and I think it's totally the other way around.

[00:19:53] Exactly. I think you best be having sex

[00:19:56] so that you can focus appropriately, you know?

[00:20:01] But I'm also a woman.

[00:20:03] So what do I have to say about sex?

[00:20:05] Like my opinions don't count, Kyle.

[00:20:08] So I guess that brings up an interesting question.

[00:20:12] Was it control over the man or was that control over the women?

[00:20:16] Oh, that's a good question.

[00:20:18] Like, was he expecting that the women wouldn't be able to do something

[00:20:22] on Sundays if they had sex on Saturday?

[00:20:25] No, I don't.

[00:20:28] I don't think so.

[00:20:29] Way in and let us know is it to control the men or the women?

[00:20:33] I think it was just to control everyone.

[00:20:35] That's totally possible.

[00:20:36] It's it's just another facet of life

[00:20:39] he could make fake rules about and say they were God ordained

[00:20:45] and you all better march like good little soldiers.

[00:20:49] But I'm with you.

[00:20:49] It's so weird for him to put restrictions on.

[00:20:54] Sex, married people.

[00:20:57] Well, like, yeah, it's their own private business.

[00:21:00] Well, what I was getting is what you were talking about earlier

[00:21:04] about you must have a quiverful.

[00:21:06] You need 1900 kids.

[00:21:08] But also there are a grand total of six and a half days a month.

[00:21:13] Is there like you can have sex and it better line up with your ovulation?

[00:21:17] I'm surprised he didn't like put out a calendar.

[00:21:19] It's like these days are good.

[00:21:20] These days are bad.

[00:21:21] Well, no, the husband was responsible for tracking all of that, Kyle.

[00:21:25] Why do I feel like that's hard to believe?

[00:21:30] Oh, man, did I ever tell the story about Rick tracking

[00:21:36] I don't think so of one of the young women, one of my brothers, courted

[00:21:40] No, I don't think I heard this one.

[00:21:42] Snap, I I laid in him.

[00:21:45] Thankfully, I think I was like married at the time.

[00:21:47] So Rick wasn't my authority anymore.

[00:21:50] Oh, OK, so my brother Aaron.

[00:21:53] Oh, yeah, I mean, it was me.

[00:21:56] I called it out like, oh, yeah, I made my life a lot harder

[00:22:00] than it needed to be because I was like, where is the truth?

[00:22:03] I will speak it.

[00:22:05] I don't think I do it any differently.

[00:22:10] Though looking back, I'm kind of proud of younger me.

[00:22:13] Go get him, Tiger.

[00:22:15] But OK, so my brother Aaron, the one that's two years younger than I am,

[00:22:19] he was interested in this young woman.

[00:22:21] They were courting.

[00:22:21] They actually got engaged at one point and I think Aaron called it off.

[00:22:26] But I was over at the family house one day

[00:22:30] and we had this big old family calendar that would hang in the kitchen.

[00:22:37] I think a lot of families did or do that still.

[00:22:39] Maybe it's all electronic now, but I saw H,

[00:22:45] which was the first initial of this young woman's name circled.

[00:22:50] And I was like, that is weird.

[00:22:51] Why is that?

[00:22:52] And then I and there was like another one like it just lined up

[00:22:56] such that I could see like two of them on dates on the calendar.

[00:23:01] So I was like, this is this is weird.

[00:23:04] There is no like what is this about?

[00:23:07] And then I counted and I realized they were approximately 28 days apart.

[00:23:10] And I knew the name of the young woman.

[00:23:13] My brother was courting.

[00:23:15] You guys were all named A. Yeah.

[00:23:17] So that was pretty easy to figure out.

[00:23:18] It wasn't one of us because everything on the calendar would be like a one this

[00:23:22] a for that it wasn't our names.

[00:23:24] It was our like you got to abbreviate basketball games.

[00:23:27] And so so I see this H circled

[00:23:31] and then I start flipping through the calendar and yep, about every 28 days,

[00:23:35] there's an H circled on the calendar.

[00:23:38] So I'm not dumb.

[00:23:39] I figured it out.

[00:23:40] I go to Rick and I'm like, why are you tracking her period?

[00:23:43] Like, are you afraid she's going to get pregnant or something?

[00:23:46] Like, why are you like this is so inappropriate?

[00:23:49] It is on the wall.

[00:23:50] It is visible to our family.

[00:23:52] Like, if someone had done that to me, I'd be fucking furious.

[00:23:56] And he was like, well, she gets bad mood.

[00:23:59] So I've just been tracking it so Aaron can figure out when she's on her period.

[00:24:04] And I just.

[00:24:07] I was I was like, no, like that is so inappropriate.

[00:24:12] You are her boyfriend's father.

[00:24:14] Why are you tracking her fucking period?

[00:24:17] I didn't say fuck back then.

[00:24:18] But like I let him know how inappropriate it was.

[00:24:22] I didn't know if he ever stopped doing that while they were together.

[00:24:25] But yeah, that was just on the family calendar in the home.

[00:24:30] Yeah, that's pretty invasive.

[00:24:31] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:33] But that was normal.

[00:24:34] Like that didn't even phase him.

[00:24:36] It didn't even occur to him how much of an invasion of her privacy

[00:24:41] or just how completely fucking inappropriate it was.

[00:24:45] I'm sure Chris had nothing to say about that.

[00:24:47] Oh, I never talked to her about it.

[00:24:49] I just tried to avoid her if I could.

[00:24:52] But yeah, it was it was his idea or at least that's how he explained it to me.

[00:24:58] Well, he knew what it was. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:02] Wow, that's crazy.

[00:25:04] Yeah. And you know, I think I was thinking about this earlier,

[00:25:07] like how weird it is that for such a privacy, private, private

[00:25:14] environment in the cult, like everyone knew when Jim Bob and Michelle

[00:25:18] Duggar were having sex. Oh, we know it's not on Saturdays.

[00:25:21] We know it's not while she's on her period.

[00:25:23] We know it's not these days after she has kids like it was out there.

[00:25:29] Why? Because they had to like light the path and show the way, obviously.

[00:25:35] But also it's not just weird.

[00:25:38] I don't know. Do other religions do like that just sounds so

[00:25:43] like ancient weird to me, like when they used to make couples prove

[00:25:48] that they had consummated the marriage, you know, for the royal bloodline or some shit.

[00:25:54] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:55] Talking about medieval Catholicism.

[00:25:59] Or people are like watching the conservation of a marriage.

[00:26:01] That one always was like that's so strange.

[00:26:05] Humans are so weird about sex

[00:26:08] or or the control, maybe a better way to say that is humans

[00:26:12] are so weird about how much they think they get to exert control.

[00:26:17] Over sex or people in general, people in general or like sex between married people

[00:26:23] or people in a consenting relationship, a legal consenting relationship

[00:26:28] to be very specific. But yeah.

[00:26:32] Good grief.

[00:26:36] I mean, I don't know what else to say like that.

[00:26:37] It's just weird.

[00:26:39] The concept is weird, especially since there's nothing you can do about that

[00:26:43] other than say you shouldn't do that.

[00:26:45] And then I mean, the dude's just weird.

[00:26:48] And again, like if I'm remembering what I read briefly as a child correctly

[00:26:52] and distraction was a thing, it doesn't even make sense.

[00:26:56] Like it doesn't even make sense.

[00:26:59] Yeah, there's no logical reason for that.

[00:27:02] The dude was weird about constipation and regular bowel movements.

[00:27:06] But at least that's like medically necessary.

[00:27:08] Like, yeah, you should have regular bowel movements

[00:27:11] being constipated might be a sign that something's wrong.

[00:27:14] Like it's still weird.

[00:27:16] It's still inappropriate and overly invasive, but like at least it's

[00:27:22] a medical necessity or something.

[00:27:24] But this one is just why, Bill?

[00:27:27] Why? Why?

[00:27:30] Oh, go away.

[00:27:31] So unless there's anything else about no sex on Saturday,

[00:27:35] is you want to try knocking out some of the Q&A question?

[00:27:39] Oh, yeah.

[00:27:40] We've got so many people saying questions and comments, which we love,

[00:27:43] but we're going to try to sprinkle them in instead of doing so many Q&A

[00:27:50] episodes because we could probably do one every week.

[00:27:53] We have got such a good one here.

[00:27:57] OK, here we go.

[00:27:58] I'm really excited to talk about this one.

[00:28:00] Hi, my name is Carl.

[00:28:01] I've heard your words well.

[00:28:03] My name is Jay.

[00:28:04] I'm listening to you in South Africa.

[00:28:07] And I had a question and I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible.

[00:28:12] But I grew up in a Christian family in, I think it's called the Dutch

[00:28:18] Reform Church in South Africa.

[00:28:21] And my parents, although they don't go to church anymore,

[00:28:26] they pray before they eat and, you know, those types of things.

[00:28:30] They are still very much Christian, although I don't believe it was

[00:28:33] abusive in that sense.

[00:28:35] And in the country and culture that I live in, everybody is predominantly Christian.

[00:28:42] It's a very, very big culture where I live.

[00:28:46] Very, very few people are non-believers like me.

[00:28:52] I can't remember a time in my life where I sat in the church

[00:28:56] and believed what they said.

[00:28:58] So it was always just natural to me that I eventually became

[00:29:02] affected the 80s.

[00:29:04] And I would like to know for someone like me who has these people around me all

[00:29:10] the time and is always going to have friends, family, etc.

[00:29:15] around me that do believe in God and are Christians.

[00:29:21] How does one navigate that?

[00:29:23] It's difficult to me to navigate who and what I am and stay true to myself

[00:29:30] while still respecting the people around me, while still respecting

[00:29:35] when people around me do want to pray.

[00:29:39] And I am very open about the fact that if you are going to use your

[00:29:42] religion to look down on anybody like, for example, gay rights,

[00:29:46] which is a big problem and those types of things that I will say something.

[00:29:51] But how do I navigate this staying true to myself

[00:29:57] but also still respecting everyone around me and not ostracizing

[00:30:02] everyone around me because I'm going to be very honest with you is

[00:30:05] I just shut down every single person's religion that told me

[00:30:08] they're a Christian.

[00:30:09] I would not have any faiths of family.

[00:30:11] I hope that makes sense.

[00:30:14] I'm currently on episode 28, so I hope you get to answer this.

[00:30:20] Jay, thank you so much for that question.

[00:30:22] It's such a good one.

[00:30:23] It's so real.

[00:30:25] It's very human.

[00:30:27] And it really resonates with me because most of the people I'm closest to,

[00:30:34] like almost 100% of them, not 100%, but almost 100% of them

[00:30:40] identify as Christian and most of them very devout,

[00:30:44] like very committed Christians.

[00:30:49] Kyle, where would you say

[00:30:52] you are with that?

[00:30:53] Like I think you have a little more religious diversity in your circle.

[00:30:58] I think a little bit of that is just from moving around.

[00:31:04] So I did spend the majority of my life in what you would consider

[00:31:09] the Bible Belt, and so I've got a lot of friends and family

[00:31:14] that still live in that area and like that's just what it is.

[00:31:17] That's it's called the Bible Belt for a reason.

[00:31:20] And so the majority of the people that live there are Christian

[00:31:24] or inattent Christian denominations of one sort or the other.

[00:31:29] But I also lived on both coasts, which I feel like in my experience

[00:31:34] they're not as religious.

[00:31:38] Yeah, that's been my experience.

[00:31:40] Or there's also diversity in religion when you get onto

[00:31:44] the more popular coastal areas

[00:31:48] in the US, in the United States.

[00:31:51] So I think because I've moved around a lot,

[00:31:55] that's that's created a diversity in my friend group.

[00:31:59] So that's not as big a problem as is if I say it's still lived

[00:32:05] in Oklahoma, because that's where I grew up

[00:32:09] and lived for the majority of my life.

[00:32:13] So yeah, it's not as I guess percentage wise.

[00:32:19] My friend group is not as Christian as it as it once was.

[00:32:25] So to answer your question, this is going to be 100 percent my opinion.

[00:32:31] OK, so this is how I personally navigate it.

[00:32:34] And we get we get a lot of messages.

[00:32:36] It's so funny because people are like, are you an atheist

[00:32:40] because it would be so unfortunate and sad if you are.

[00:32:42] And then other people who are like, I like your podcast,

[00:32:45] but you still believe in a higher power.

[00:32:46] So that's a problem.

[00:32:48] And I'm like, OK, guys, like obviously I can make everyone happy

[00:32:52] and I believe what I believe and I'm very strong and OK and what I believe.

[00:32:56] And for me personally, I believe that humans are spiritual beings.

[00:33:04] For me personally, I don't

[00:33:07] I don't hold to Christianity as my worldview.

[00:33:11] But I do believe that the human connection to spirituality is very important.

[00:33:20] I think it's good to to recognize that and be OK with it and like tap into it.

[00:33:24] But again, to each their own.

[00:33:27] And I'm not going to run around telling everyone like, well, you have to believe

[00:33:30] you're a spiritual being or we can't be friends,

[00:33:33] which I know is not at all what you're saying.

[00:33:35] But the way I personally handle that is I just let people do

[00:33:42] what is important to them when I am in their space.

[00:33:45] So for instance, my adoptive folks devout Christians.

[00:33:50] When I'm in their home, they're going to pray before dinner

[00:33:53] and I will hold their hands and I will bow their head.

[00:33:56] My head and I will like one thing I really like about my dad

[00:34:01] is he doesn't use prayers to try to like convert people.

[00:34:03] He's just like it's very brief.

[00:34:05] I feel like he's very respectful in that way.

[00:34:09] And I know they would love for me to be actively Christian and a devout Christian.

[00:34:18] But yeah, like my dad doesn't do 15 minute prayers.

[00:34:22] I think his prayers are like what 15 seconds usually of that.

[00:34:26] So that that helps that helps.

[00:34:28] But yeah, and I will use that time like I believe, you know, gratitude is important.

[00:34:33] So do I think it's necessary to bless my food before eating it?

[00:34:36] No, but I can use that time to be grateful that I'm with people I love,

[00:34:42] that there's food in front of me.

[00:34:44] You know, I just I kind of like use it for my own thing.

[00:34:47] And the other thing that I will do is I really think that since we are spiritual beings

[00:34:54] and this is going to get really, really complicated

[00:34:56] and I'm probably going to get a bunch of messages about it from people on both sides

[00:35:00] of the spectrum and then folks who agree with me.

[00:35:02] So whatever here we go.

[00:35:03] Um, I do think that there is a higher power.

[00:35:08] And I think people have different names for it and different ways of connecting with it.

[00:35:12] And like ultimately, I think it all comes out in the wash.

[00:35:16] So if someone believes in God in Jesus

[00:35:21] and they think prayer is the most powerful way to help me,

[00:35:24] like I still ask my Christian friends for prayer.

[00:35:27] If I'm going through something, I know that that is the most powerful way

[00:35:31] they can like connect with me on a spiritual level and support me

[00:35:35] is to pray to their God for me.

[00:35:37] So I'll ask for that.

[00:35:40] Do I do I believe in Jesus and the Christian God?

[00:35:44] No, but I think that their their cry to a higher

[00:35:49] or something is going to go somewhere.

[00:35:51] And that's one of the most special and powerful

[00:35:56] ways they can support me according to them.

[00:35:58] So I will ask them to be involved in a way that they believe is important,

[00:36:03] meaningful and powerful for my friends who are atheists or agnostics

[00:36:06] or just don't know what they believe.

[00:36:09] I'll ask them to send love and good thoughts

[00:36:12] or good energy or something like that.

[00:36:15] So I personally just kind of tailor to what I know

[00:36:18] the people close to me believe and I

[00:36:23] I kind of like keep my requests in line with their belief systems

[00:36:26] because like I said, at the end of the day, I know that what they're doing

[00:36:30] is the most powerful thing they believe in,

[00:36:34] whether that's sending love or good thoughts or prayers to Jesus.

[00:36:38] So personally, that's how I handle it because a lot like you, Jay,

[00:36:42] if I just said no to everyone in my life who's a Christian,

[00:36:47] I would lose a lot of people I dearly love

[00:36:50] and want to have in my life in value.

[00:36:52] So that's that's how I handle that.

[00:36:58] And another thing I'll say is like when they're in my space,

[00:37:02] if I have like a 100 percent Christian population at my dinner table

[00:37:07] and I know that like praying before a meal is very important to them,

[00:37:12] I'll ask someone else to do it.

[00:37:13] But if we're sitting at my dinner table and there's like,

[00:37:17] you know, maybe only one or two people there who think prayer is really important

[00:37:20] or no one thinks prayer is important, like I'm not going to pray before a meal

[00:37:24] because that's not part of my routine.

[00:37:27] I do practice general gratitude

[00:37:30] and acknowledge the good things in my life.

[00:37:34] And that's yeah, but praying before a meal isn't necessary for me.

[00:37:40] So on my turf in my home, unless I know

[00:37:43] that 100 percent of the population other than me really would prefer

[00:37:47] a prayer before a meal like my turf, my rules generally.

[00:37:52] What do you think, Kyle?

[00:37:54] I agree with that.

[00:37:55] I think I think and she kind of hit on this a little bit is

[00:38:00] if it starts getting pushy or forcing that on you, like by all means,

[00:38:05] like say, hey, like I don't believe the same thing you believe.

[00:38:09] I'm not going to do that.

[00:38:10] I don't care what you say.

[00:38:11] Like you can brush me all you want.

[00:38:13] But like by all means, go ahead and do what you're going to do.

[00:38:16] But leave me out of it.

[00:38:18] And and I'll push to I'll push back against things that I believe

[00:38:22] are a violation of dignity and respect.

[00:38:26] And yeah, and I feel like, you know, obviously she lives in South Africa.

[00:38:31] I don't know the culture there.

[00:38:32] I've never been there.

[00:38:33] I don't know the people there.

[00:38:36] Where I come from, I feel like if someone was to say that.

[00:38:41] Say which part that like, hey, you know,

[00:38:45] please bless the food and you're you don't believe you're not a Christian.

[00:38:49] And you just said no, thanks.

[00:38:51] They would just let that go.

[00:38:53] And yeah, my circle would do that.

[00:38:56] And that is the expectation I would have of somebody else.

[00:39:00] That's a very respectful thing to do and not be so pushy.

[00:39:07] However, I mean, we all have those pushy people in our lives, too.

[00:39:11] And it's I'll probably catch flak for this.

[00:39:15] Like when you're dealing with religions that are very centered around proselytizing,

[00:39:21] evangelicals, you can get people who are going to be pushy about that thing.

[00:39:25] And that I don't think is OK.

[00:39:28] And that's a hard one to balance because that's their religion.

[00:39:32] They believe that religion.

[00:39:35] I'm OK with them believing that and they should do whatever

[00:39:38] and believe whatever they want to believe.

[00:39:42] But when you're going to force that on someone else,

[00:39:45] which is what they're doing, like they need to know where the line is of,

[00:39:52] like there's a difference between proselytizing and conscripting somebody.

[00:39:57] I don't even know if that's the right word.

[00:39:58] But like when you're forcing it on them

[00:40:01] and you're just going to shove it down their throat

[00:40:03] until they believe what you believe because you're proselytizing,

[00:40:07] like that's not OK.

[00:40:08] And I think that's where I draw the line there.

[00:40:11] And I think she was kind of getting it that like, how do you balance?

[00:40:14] So it sounds like she's getting some pressure.

[00:40:16] Yeah. OK, so gosh, I'm trying to remember

[00:40:20] the last time there was a pretty pushy thing.

[00:40:25] When it comes to pushy people.

[00:40:29] Again, I am not sure how this would work in your culture,

[00:40:32] but I've become like a master topic changer

[00:40:36] when when things are going down a road that I know, like, OK,

[00:40:40] someone's on their evangelical horse and they're they're they're on a mission.

[00:40:46] And let's give them some credit, like or a benefit of the doubt.

[00:40:49] Let's say that they're doing what they think is the most important thing

[00:40:52] to do, which is save your soul.

[00:40:54] So let's yeah, let's try giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[00:40:57] But they're being real aggressive about saving your soul.

[00:41:00] I change the topic and sometimes I'll do it really abruptly

[00:41:03] because even though I was like born and bred to be polite at the end of the day,

[00:41:06] if someone's being rude by pushing their beliefs down my throat,

[00:41:09] like I'll push back at that point.

[00:41:12] Like I'm not going to say shut up.

[00:41:15] I don't want to hear about this.

[00:41:17] I will very abruptly say

[00:41:22] something about my dog because he's always like he's so weird.

[00:41:25] There's always a goofy story about him

[00:41:27] or I'll say something about my work or something about Kyle

[00:41:32] or something about like I'm really excited about going back to school this fall

[00:41:36] from my PhD because I'm going to have so many other things I can bring up.

[00:41:40] Like and then we were talking about this in class the other day, you know,

[00:41:44] like I just I try to change the topic and I have had people come to me

[00:41:50] and say like, you know, why aren't you a Christian anymore?

[00:41:53] I really I'm sad that you're not a Christian anymore and stuff like that.

[00:41:57] And I just smile and I'm like, I know you care about me, but I'm good.

[00:42:01] Like I'm good with where I've landed.

[00:42:04] And to everyone out there who listens, who is deeply religious,

[00:42:08] like more power to you, I have no issues with that.

[00:42:12] I raised my right hand and said I was willing to die

[00:42:15] to defend your constitutional right here in the United States

[00:42:19] to worship as you see fit.

[00:42:21] Like I said, I would die so you can do that.

[00:42:23] OK, that's how serious I am when I say more power to you.

[00:42:26] Do your thing.

[00:42:28] My my gentle reminder slash suggestion is

[00:42:33] be aware of how you're coming across as you try to evangelize

[00:42:38] because there are a lot of people who

[00:42:42] who have done just an enormous amount of work around their faith beliefs.

[00:42:48] Like those of us who have left evangelicalism,

[00:42:52] we did not do that willy nilly.

[00:42:55] Like there was a lot of time, energy, effort, thought, research,

[00:42:59] conversations, reading, thinking, pondering, agonizing.

[00:43:03] Like most of us go through an enormous amount of thought

[00:43:07] around our faith beliefs, especially if we were raised in a religious environment.

[00:43:12] So I guess the ask for for really deeply religious folks

[00:43:18] is recognize that folks aren't just being dumb or stupid or willy nilly.

[00:43:23] Like they're making they have the right and the privilege and the autonomy

[00:43:28] to make their own decisions about their faith.

[00:43:31] And you need to respect that.

[00:43:35] And if you're having a conversation with them, they're like,

[00:43:39] yeah, tell me more, tell me more about Jesus.

[00:43:42] Then that's like Green is go.

[00:43:44] They open the door.

[00:43:45] But if people are saying

[00:43:49] that it makes them uncomfortable, like if they're being that blunt with you,

[00:43:52] if they're changing the topic in a more subtle way,

[00:43:54] if you can read their body language like they're trying to stay engaged

[00:43:57] in the conversation and be polite, but their body language is really tense.

[00:44:01] Like read that, listen to what they're saying or showing you,

[00:44:06] saying to or showing you and let it go.

[00:44:09] And I think there's a couple of different ways of going about this

[00:44:12] and your way like it's a totally valid

[00:44:16] tactic that is kind of indirect.

[00:44:19] That changing the topic.

[00:44:20] Yeah, like that's a valid way of kind of

[00:44:26] driving the conversation or the situation.

[00:44:29] And on the flip side of that, there's more direct options which are, you know,

[00:44:34] hey, I don't I don't want any part of this

[00:44:37] do what you're going to do, but like leave me out of it.

[00:44:40] And in in those situations

[00:44:44] in which you know that they have good intentions and maybe you like

[00:44:48] this person or you've got a long relationship with this person

[00:44:52] and you know they care about you.

[00:44:54] And if you have a direct

[00:44:57] like blunt conversation with them is like, hey, I know you care about me

[00:45:01] and that's why you're trying to save my soul.

[00:45:05] But like please stop

[00:45:08] and they continue to push

[00:45:11] like now you're treading into waters of this being an unhealthy

[00:45:14] relationship with this person and you have to ask yourself like,

[00:45:18] is it worth it?

[00:45:20] Like this person is not respecting my boundaries at this point.

[00:45:23] I was very clear like this is the direct blunt approach of

[00:45:29] please stop doing that.

[00:45:30] I know you care and I love that you care about me that much

[00:45:34] that you're trying to

[00:45:36] you know, bring me into your religion or whatever it is.

[00:45:40] But like stop.

[00:45:42] And if they don't like it might be time to put some space there.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:50] I guess I would say I have some of both.

[00:45:52] Like I have very kind of pushy Christians in my life.

[00:45:58] And then the ones who when I've said, you know, this is where I stand

[00:46:02] and I'm good with that, they respected it, they dropped it, they left me alone.

[00:46:05] So I mean, my heart kind of breaks for you, Jake,

[00:46:08] because if you're saying everyone, if you cut out the people who were Christians,

[00:46:14] you lose everyone.

[00:46:15] Like are they all pushy?

[00:46:17] Are they all aggressive?

[00:46:19] Or if you like Kyle said, had some boundaries, would there be

[00:46:24] some people who would respect those and some people who wouldn't?

[00:46:27] And then maybe maybe you're only backing away from the people

[00:46:31] who wouldn't respect the boundary.

[00:46:33] I mean, that's hard because I would say the person in my life

[00:46:35] who is the most concerned about my spirituality has a partner

[00:46:41] who helps temper them.

[00:46:45] So I have that, I guess, going for me in that relationship.

[00:46:56] And I feel like everyone else in my life who's Christian,

[00:47:00] who's tried to, you know, win me back to Christ.

[00:47:04] When I said, hey, I'm good.

[00:47:06] Like this is where I'm at.

[00:47:08] And some people like one of my best friends,

[00:47:11] I will tell her my whole fucking spiritual journey

[00:47:15] because I know regardless of what she believes,

[00:47:18] she's going to love me, support me and be like curious with me

[00:47:22] about what's going on, even if it even if it doesn't even come

[00:47:25] close to aligning with what she believes, she's just like really

[00:47:28] good at being curious and being on the journey.

[00:47:32] And so I don't know, maybe I'm just profoundly lucky

[00:47:36] that the people around me have for the most part

[00:47:40] responded really well when I've said, hey, no, like I'm good.

[00:47:44] Thanks.

[00:47:46] But yeah, like Kyle, to your point, I agree with you

[00:47:50] that if people are not respecting your boundaries

[00:47:52] and if it's stressful to spend time with them

[00:47:54] because you know they're just going to like

[00:47:57] want to convert your soul the whole time.

[00:48:00] What I guess my question is, what would your life look like

[00:48:02] if you stepped back from those people?

[00:48:05] Like is that everyone or is that 25 or 50 percent?

[00:48:09] Could you handle a 25 to 50 percent loss?

[00:48:11] Like what is your tolerance for that?

[00:48:14] And then it's just kind of like how much distress does it bring?

[00:48:17] Because like the people in my life who are most concerned

[00:48:20] about me becoming a Christian again

[00:48:22] or returning to Christ or however you want to say it.

[00:48:26] When I run the cost-benefit analysis, it's like, well,

[00:48:29] does it cause me some distress the way they do that?

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:33] Would I prefer that they not do that?

[00:48:35] Yeah.

[00:48:38] Do I feel like they listen to me and leave it alone?

[00:48:40] Not really.

[00:48:41] But also like do I love these people

[00:48:43] and want them to be in my life?

[00:48:45] Yes.

[00:48:46] So I'm willing to tolerate a certain level of distress

[00:48:50] to keep them in my life.

[00:48:53] And it would be fair to also say that they should have

[00:48:57] the expectation that they should be able to bend as much as

[00:49:02] they're asking you to bend with their...

[00:49:04] Yeah.

[00:49:05] And just leave it alone.

[00:49:06] Yeah.

[00:49:07] It's a two-way street there and you've got to find people

[00:49:10] that are going to operate like that and say,

[00:49:14] even though I know Jay doesn't believe the same thing

[00:49:18] as I do, she's okay with me doing what I do

[00:49:22] and I don't push her.

[00:49:24] And we have this harmonious relationship

[00:49:28] and that's a reasonable expectation for anybody

[00:49:32] in any situation.

[00:49:33] Yeah.

[00:49:34] You do your thing and just don't push it on somebody else

[00:49:40] within reason.

[00:49:44] And I think that's an interesting thing.

[00:49:46] Like, yeah, I'll get messages from folks who are like,

[00:49:49] you should be an atheist and stuff like that.

[00:49:51] But I find that people who are atheist, agnostic,

[00:49:55] or just still figuring it out,

[00:49:59] they...

[00:50:00] I know that there are some who proselytize

[00:50:02] and try to get people to become atheist or agnostic

[00:50:05] or whatever.

[00:50:06] But again, personal experience,

[00:50:08] I can only speak for myself.

[00:50:10] I find that in my life, in my circle,

[00:50:13] those people are not out there pushing

[00:50:15] their belief system

[00:50:17] or their lack of a belief system.

[00:50:19] They're just like, I'm here, I'm on my own journey,

[00:50:21] I'm doing my thing,

[00:50:23] I'm trying to do it wisely and intelligently

[00:50:26] and well.

[00:50:28] And they don't really engage

[00:50:32] in those conversations with other folks

[00:50:35] unless there's dignity, respect, human rights,

[00:50:39] violation, stuff like that.

[00:50:41] Then I find those people to be pretty outspoken

[00:50:44] as they should be.

[00:50:46] But yeah, I mean it's interesting too

[00:50:49] to look at it from the perspective of

[00:50:51] even within religions, people don't agree.

[00:50:53] You know, there are a bajillion denominations

[00:50:56] just within Christianity.

[00:50:58] There are different takes on other religions as well.

[00:51:01] If you stop and think about

[00:51:04] the fact that she had to ask that question

[00:51:07] should tell you a lot about

[00:51:11] those people and or those religions.

[00:51:14] And I would just implore people to stop

[00:51:17] and think about that.

[00:51:19] Why did this person feel inclined to even

[00:51:21] have this struggle?

[00:51:23] This is her experience with

[00:51:26] this demographic of people

[00:51:28] and it's making her uncomfortable.

[00:51:30] And it's causing her distress.

[00:51:32] Not bringing her closer to Jesus.

[00:51:34] Someone's not doing it right

[00:51:36] and they're not being respectful

[00:51:38] and having healthy boundaries.

[00:51:41] And respecting people's healthy boundaries.

[00:51:44] Because we're talking about how

[00:51:46] Bill was so invasive about people's

[00:51:48] private sex lives.

[00:51:50] Faith is incredibly personal.

[00:51:53] Spiritual beliefs are incredibly personal.

[00:51:56] I've thought a lot since we started

[00:51:59] the podcast and people in my life,

[00:52:01] I'm going to say this kind of strongly.

[00:52:04] So just bear with me for a moment.

[00:52:06] Like the audacity

[00:52:08] of individuals to pry into the

[00:52:11] faith beliefs of other individuals.

[00:52:13] To me, that's really rude.

[00:52:18] Again, personal opinion.

[00:52:20] It's rude because that's such a private thing.

[00:52:23] That's such a personal thing.

[00:52:25] So again, that's my take on it.

[00:52:28] I'm sure that will upset some folks.

[00:52:31] But like I say with all the love in my heart

[00:52:34] be kind to each other because

[00:52:36] obviously if someone sent a question

[00:52:38] and like that, they are experiencing

[00:52:40] a certain level of distress.

[00:52:42] And I don't think that that's what people

[00:52:44] who believe in and love Jesus want to do.

[00:52:46] I don't think they're like,

[00:52:47] how can I cause someone distress today?

[00:52:49] So just recognize that like

[00:52:51] how you approach this

[00:52:52] and how you approach people

[00:52:53] and how you approach people's

[00:52:54] private faith journey and stuff.

[00:52:56] Like you might actually be

[00:52:59] just confirming everything negative they believe.

[00:53:02] Yeah, I mean it's quite the rabbit hole

[00:53:05] we can go down on that one.

[00:53:08] But yeah, so thanks Jay

[00:53:11] for sitting that question in.

[00:53:13] I don't know if we helped you much

[00:53:15] but hopefully you feel validated

[00:53:17] and supported and like the distress is real.

[00:53:19] The situation is hard

[00:53:21] and we care that you're in that situation

[00:53:24] and yeah, we hope that

[00:53:28] people respect your boundaries

[00:53:31] and do not ostracize you

[00:53:34] for believing differently than they believe.

[00:53:37] Yep, well we'll end it there

[00:53:39] so please feel free to keep sending in questions.

[00:53:43] There's a link in the

[00:53:45] episode description to send us a text

[00:53:48] if you want to send us a comment

[00:53:50] or ask a question or whatever.

[00:53:52] You can also do that on the website

[00:53:54] like I said the

[00:53:55] if you would like to donate those

[00:53:57] there's options in there as well

[00:53:59] and we'll be back next week.