35 - Adoption and the Sins of the Father

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast.

[00:00:05] I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the

[00:00:11] IBLP cult which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host Kyle Briggs.

[00:00:17] I am Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned

[00:00:22] and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:30] Alright, welcome back to the next episode.

[00:00:34] What do you have for us tonight Amanda?

[00:00:36] Tonight I figured we would talk about Bill Gauthards' views on adoption.

[00:00:41] Oh, I'm sure he had quite a horrible view on adoption.

[00:00:48] Yeah, it was pretty bad.

[00:00:50] What kind of crazy stuff did he think about with adoption?

[00:00:56] Well, I tried to find Care Bulletin number five, medical care.

[00:01:03] Medical care, of course.

[00:01:05] Adoption falls under medical information.

[00:01:09] As it turns out, I have scoured the interwebs and I could not find Care Bulletin number five.

[00:01:16] So if you have access to Care Bulletin number five, I would not love to see it because

[00:01:22] it would be helpful.

[00:01:26] So I'm going to have to go a lot off of memory and a lot off of what I found on

[00:01:32] blogs and Reddit and stuff people shared from their memories.

[00:01:36] And basically.

[00:01:41] In a shocking turn of events, Bill took a lot of biblical text out of context.

[00:01:46] No, no, he would never, never.

[00:01:51] Well, I think that's OK because I think a lot of this is around your memories

[00:01:56] of growing up in the cult and other people's memories.

[00:01:59] And I think when you're in an environment like that, you can read.

[00:02:06] You know, what the their scripture is about that or what their policies are on

[00:02:10] something and then what actually happened can sometimes be different.

[00:02:14] So I don't think it's a bad thing to get someone's, you know,

[00:02:17] how they remember.

[00:02:19] No, that's true.

[00:02:20] What do you know about the sins of the father?

[00:02:23] Kyle.

[00:02:25] Can only guess.

[00:02:27] Do you remember that part of the Bible?

[00:02:29] Hmm.

[00:02:30] It doesn't sound.

[00:02:31] I think it's from somewhere in the Old Testament.

[00:02:34] And it talks about God visiting the sins of the fathers upon their children for generations,

[00:02:40] which by the by is what I used to pray about while I was being raped

[00:02:44] because I knew my brother was sinning.

[00:02:47] So I prayed for his kids.

[00:02:51] And that, yeah, I would pray that God wouldn't visit his sins on his kids.

[00:02:56] It's still fascinating to me and I think a testament to your character

[00:03:01] that like when that's that stuff was happening,

[00:03:05] that you were thinking of someone else.

[00:03:08] I mean, I haven't been in that situation.

[00:03:09] So I don't know what I would be thinking, but like it's

[00:03:13] you repeatedly say that like when this was happening,

[00:03:15] like I was worried about Andy or I was worried about his future kids

[00:03:20] or your other siblings.

[00:03:23] Yeah.

[00:03:24] Without getting too graphic.

[00:03:26] I had a lot of time to think, you know, because it happened a lot

[00:03:30] and they weren't short abuse sessions.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:33] They were usually pretty drawn out.

[00:03:35] So what is the sins of the father in a relation to adoption?

[00:03:39] So here's the problem, Kyle.

[00:03:41] Oh, geez.

[00:03:43] With adopting.

[00:03:45] You are adopting their genetic lines, sins right along with them.

[00:03:51] And that's and you're bringing that into your household.

[00:03:55] And now if there's satanic influence in the genetic line of your adopted

[00:04:00] child, that satanic influence comes into your home and impacts your biological

[00:04:07] children because by the by you really should have biological children.

[00:04:11] If you're going to adopt because biological children are assigned

[00:04:15] from God that you should have children.

[00:04:17] And if you don't have children, you shouldn't adopt because

[00:04:19] if God hasn't blessed you with children and has made you infertile,

[00:04:22] it means God doesn't think you're like good enough to be a parent.

[00:04:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:27] That's pretty harsh.

[00:04:29] Yeah.

[00:04:29] So you shouldn't then adopt and also ATI families.

[00:04:34] So any IBLP affiliated family enrolled in the ATI home schooling

[00:04:39] program had to talk to headquarters staff before like ATI staff

[00:04:44] before they could pursue adoption.

[00:04:48] So they had to like get written or some sort of approval from.

[00:04:52] Yes.

[00:04:52] But this was very normal.

[00:04:53] Like you had to do that if you wanted to court someone, if you work

[00:04:55] at headquarters to like and Bill would say no all the time.

[00:04:59] I think I've mentioned that in the past.

[00:05:01] He literally gave his personal approval.

[00:05:04] Like when you say that, I just assumed there was like a committee or like.

[00:05:08] No, it was like Bill personally would or would not approve you courting.

[00:05:12] That's a lot of I don't know.

[00:05:15] Power and control because he's well, there's that.

[00:05:17] But like that's a little time consuming to manage the personal trust me.

[00:05:21] He loved it.

[00:05:22] I guess.

[00:05:23] You have to exert power and control over people.

[00:05:26] It's every predator's dream.

[00:05:28] I mean, that makes sense.

[00:05:29] He was living his best life as a predator.

[00:05:33] Living his best life by being involved in everybody's business.

[00:05:37] That sounds like a nightmare.

[00:05:38] We've joked about having an episode called no sex on Saturdays

[00:05:42] because I cannot find it in IBLP literature.

[00:05:44] But hey, former IBLP listeners help me out here.

[00:05:48] I could almost swear that as a kid, I accidentally stumbled

[00:05:54] across some IBLP literature that said you couldn't have sex on Saturday night

[00:05:59] because it would distract you from the church message Sunday morning.

[00:06:03] But I can't find it so we can't have an episode called no sex on Saturdays

[00:06:07] until or unless we find evidence.

[00:06:11] I was really excited about that when you were brainstorming ideas.

[00:06:15] So we'll definitely have to do a little more research to see if we can

[00:06:18] pull that out of the hat.

[00:06:20] Yeah, so all that to say that's how involved Bill was.

[00:06:23] Again, he dictated when married people could have sex.

[00:06:27] You know, if the Saturday thing is correct, definitely around

[00:06:30] the woman's menstrual cycle, like the dude was just overly involved

[00:06:36] in every decision.

[00:06:38] So.

[00:06:41] Egg quarters staff being involved in your decision to adopt a child

[00:06:46] is actually quite tame, all things considered.

[00:06:49] Yeah, I guess the whole thing is not tame.

[00:06:55] So, Kyle, under IBLP ideology, because I cannot have children,

[00:07:03] that means that God doesn't think we should be parents.

[00:07:07] Well, good thing I don't believe that.

[00:07:11] That's it's that's such a weird belief system to have.

[00:07:16] And I don't understand why like where that would even come from.

[00:07:20] And the day you just have an inherited bill have like an inherent

[00:07:24] belief that like your health was that tied to your holiness that if

[00:07:28] yes, physically couldn't have children, then there was some sin

[00:07:34] going on there or just unworthiness or God had a different calling

[00:07:38] on your life.

[00:07:39] Well, could God have a different calling on your life, Kyle?

[00:07:41] Other than being fruitful and multiplying.

[00:07:47] I don't think I think it was more like judgmenting condemnation

[00:07:52] because that's way more on brand for IBLP.

[00:07:55] But he also advocated for getting rid of your adopted children.

[00:08:01] Really? Yeah.

[00:08:02] You were supposed to send them away if they weren't working out.

[00:08:09] So only if they were being bad, you were supposed to send them

[00:08:12] or if bad things were happening to the family.

[00:08:15] That was a sign that you weren't like you shouldn't have adopted

[00:08:18] that kid. So he had two stories, you know,

[00:08:22] he had two pieces of anecdotal evidence.

[00:08:25] That's what I'm trying to say.

[00:08:26] Stories of families who returned their adopted kids and suddenly

[00:08:31] God blessed them with health and wealth.

[00:08:34] Like literally he talked about financial windfalls and restoration

[00:08:38] of peace in the home and all this stuff.

[00:08:40] OK, can we just talk about the fact that if you are adopting

[00:08:43] a child, there is trauma inherent in that child's life.

[00:08:47] Even if they're a child and they don't know that their parents died

[00:08:51] or they're a child and they don't know that they're,

[00:08:54] you know, being adopted for myriad reasons, whatever.

[00:08:59] There's some sort of trauma that occurs

[00:09:04] for a child to need to be refamilied.

[00:09:09] Right. I'm making up a new phrase.

[00:09:11] You heard it here first, folks.

[00:09:14] And traumatized kids are not going to be little angels.

[00:09:20] They're going to they're going to have moments where they act out horribly.

[00:09:26] And if you don't expect that, then I would say you're pretty naive.

[00:09:33] Or at least not educated around trauma and how it manifests,

[00:09:38] even if there's a delayed manifestation.

[00:09:40] Like you can't just expect to adopt a kid

[00:09:43] and it's all going to be perfect and you're all going to live happily ever after.

[00:09:46] The thing I'm surprised about with that is this whole,

[00:09:50] you know, the whole quiver full of arrows.

[00:09:52] So you've got a kid.

[00:09:55] So you adopted them instead of a natural biological child.

[00:10:01] Sin.

[00:10:02] But like that's one more IBLP kid.

[00:10:06] So.

[00:10:08] But they're just not worthy enough, I guess.

[00:10:10] I mean, that's the level of hatred he must have had for adopted kids.

[00:10:14] Well, he said that they remember how it started with Institute and basic

[00:10:18] youth conflicts.

[00:10:20] I didn't read it and I didn't even try to find it.

[00:10:24] But there was a quote from Bill from some other thing he published that said,

[00:10:29] adopted kids are going to have more conflict.

[00:10:33] And we don't want conflict.

[00:10:35] Kyle, no, you won't blind followers.

[00:10:38] And perfection, because remember, perfection is reasonable.

[00:10:43] So I saw a YouTube video of two pastors having a conversation about Bill

[00:10:51] Gother's adoption policies and the guy claimed that Bill said adopted kids were monsters.

[00:10:58] So is this another instance where Bill just is making stuff up based off of like

[00:11:03] one incident of something happening?

[00:11:06] He's like, here's the example.

[00:11:07] It happened one time.

[00:11:08] So that twice, Kyle, he had two examples.

[00:11:10] Oh.

[00:11:11] Pardon me.

[00:11:12] He had two examples that he put in basic care of bulletin number five.

[00:11:16] Apparently he missed his statistics class then.

[00:11:19] Apparently.

[00:11:21] Well, you know, he probably got his PhD while he was asleep since he believes in that.

[00:11:26] So, you know, that's true.

[00:11:28] I think he does have doctor, but it could be of his own making.

[00:11:34] Maybe that's what I should do instead of going through four to five years

[00:11:37] of rigorous academic undertaking.

[00:11:39] I could just say I'm Amanda Brake's PhD.

[00:11:45] I got it in my sleep, folks, by meditating on the screen.

[00:11:48] So start playing that at night.

[00:11:53] So I mean, I like school too much.

[00:11:55] I'm surprised they even made that joke.

[00:11:57] I like school too much.

[00:12:00] So at this point, like he's like, you're going to bring in the sins of the father,

[00:12:05] but it's like I'd be more afraid of the fathers that were in the cult than.

[00:12:10] Thank you.

[00:12:10] The potential of some other dude.

[00:12:12] Thank you.

[00:12:14] Oh, my God.

[00:12:14] Of course, I'm sure he didn't see it that way, but no, no.

[00:12:18] To me, I'm just like, I'm blessed, right?

[00:12:21] Kyle, to be part of ATI as a child.

[00:12:25] Of course.

[00:12:26] We're all just blessed and righteous.

[00:12:29] I mean, that's all I get messages about.

[00:12:31] Hey, Amanda, I grew up in IBLP too, and I loved it.

[00:12:35] And I'm so thrilled that that was the life path from my childhood and that

[00:12:41] my parents made those decisions.

[00:12:43] And I have zero trauma.

[00:12:44] I get hundreds of those messages.

[00:12:46] Oh, I'm sure.

[00:12:49] That was like complete.

[00:12:50] Sorry. Oh, I know for anyone new who hasn't listened to the backlog of

[00:12:54] episodes if you started with this one, that was all sarcasm.

[00:12:58] I get messages constantly from folks who grew up in repressive

[00:13:02] environments or IBLP.

[00:13:05] Just, yeah, not good.

[00:13:07] It wasn't good.

[00:13:08] We did not have fun.

[00:13:09] No, the cult has not really persisted to this day.

[00:13:14] So it's not like it continued growing because it was so great.

[00:13:17] Yeah, one of the folks on Reddit was talking about how, like if you

[00:13:22] adopt without having biological children, you know, horrible, horrible bad.

[00:13:28] But if you had children and you adopt, then you were

[00:13:31] wonderful and God was blessing you.

[00:13:34] Unless you brought in the sins of the fathers.

[00:13:36] This is very complicated.

[00:13:37] Like again, with the contradictory shit of like the quiverful thing.

[00:13:44] And then also they I think the cult also taught the whole adoption.

[00:13:52] Theological concept like were adopted spiritually.

[00:13:57] Like sonship, God, Jesus.

[00:14:00] So that's OK.

[00:14:02] But adopting kids into your biological family system is not.

[00:14:07] And and Bill apparently said that like adoption is some modern construct

[00:14:13] that like, I don't know, wasn't part of God's plan or something.

[00:14:17] I mean, how is it any different than if that some other family decides

[00:14:22] they want to join the cult and now that kid and the father are now

[00:14:28] part of the cult and like, how would that be any different than some other cult

[00:14:33] family adopting, you know, said kid and I'm just making up a name so that I could

[00:14:37] be clear, like they adopt Ryan.

[00:14:40] How is that different than Ryan's family joining the cult?

[00:14:43] Don't bring your logic into this.

[00:14:44] Like I don't.

[00:14:46] I don't understand it.

[00:14:48] So.

[00:14:50] I mean, I say this all the time, like I just don't understand it.

[00:14:52] His logic is flawed and there's no seemingly no way to reason it.

[00:15:01] OK, apparently.

[00:15:04] In Care Bulletin five, you're not supposed to adopt

[00:15:10] instead of choosing to have natural children.

[00:15:14] So if you can have natural children, you must.

[00:15:18] I mean, that would make sense if right.

[00:15:20] That's that system.

[00:15:24] What if you what if you like cannot financially support more than two kids?

[00:15:31] And you have the opportunity to adopt two kids and give them a wonderful life.

[00:15:36] So you choose to adopt the two kids and for go having biological children.

[00:15:40] Guess what, Kyle, you're unholy.

[00:15:43] According to Bill.

[00:15:46] Well, there's a lot of things Bill says that will make you unholy

[00:15:50] or cause you to be unholy or feel like Bill just also just makes up stuff

[00:15:56] to just force you to do what he wants you to do.

[00:15:59] And it's unholy if you don't do that.

[00:16:01] What does Bill have to gain?

[00:16:03] I don't I don't understand it.

[00:16:04] I mean, a lot of his other stuff is like grooming

[00:16:07] so his power and control stuff like it's horrible,

[00:16:10] but you can see the logic from a predatory perspective.

[00:16:15] What's the fucking point of this one?

[00:16:16] What is the same thing?

[00:16:18] Wait, how?

[00:16:18] I think it's the same thing in the sense that by nature of him creating a situation

[00:16:25] and saying, this is what I want to do or this is what I believe we should do.

[00:16:29] And in forcing you to also do it by saying.

[00:16:34] Do this because it's holy and the opposite is unholy.

[00:16:38] He's controlling you.

[00:16:40] He's controlling your decision making process by way of recruiting people.

[00:16:45] So maybe it wasn't even about adoption or not adoption.

[00:16:48] It was just another thing he found that he could use to exert control over people.

[00:16:54] It could be.

[00:16:55] But I also fully believe he probably thought that like, oh, this outside person

[00:17:00] that's not in the cult, like they've got all these sins.

[00:17:03] And if you adopt some kid from outside the cult, you're.

[00:17:07] You know, every time it just always comes back to the dude was fucking raping minors,

[00:17:14] you know, while while teaching all of this.

[00:17:17] So.

[00:17:19] I again, I don't ever think it was about the religion for him.

[00:17:25] No, I don't think he believed his own teachings.

[00:17:27] No, I think I think he just.

[00:17:31] He just latched on to the Bible and or Christianity.

[00:17:35] And since there was already a pool of people that believe everything in that book

[00:17:42] and he could take those words, they have power over people.

[00:17:46] The Bible does.

[00:17:48] That's true.

[00:17:48] And so by distorting or twisting around the words that are in there,

[00:17:54] it's easy to manipulate those people.

[00:17:58] Like he's that's his in.

[00:18:01] I mean, at least that's how I see it.

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] And going back to like episode two where we talked about his brothers,

[00:18:08] it wasn't like he was this one bad apple.

[00:18:13] Mm hmm.

[00:18:14] Everyone in his family or almost everyone in his family, at least all of his

[00:18:17] brothers were like super shady.

[00:18:20] Yeah.

[00:18:20] And I mean, he was condoning that behavior.

[00:18:24] Yeah, that's true.

[00:18:25] And based on the multitude of comments and messages we've gotten from people,

[00:18:32] they've experienced similar things of sexual harassment or being raped as

[00:18:38] minors in the cult and usually within their family system.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] So it's probably a good thing no one got adopted.

[00:18:48] Well, or very few people got adopted into the cult.

[00:18:51] Like I'm very pro adoption.

[00:18:54] I am, but.

[00:18:58] You're just saying adopted into a cult might not be the best outcome

[00:19:02] for a child.

[00:19:03] So there's that.

[00:19:06] Um, yeah.

[00:19:08] So I mean, do you remember there being any adopted kids?

[00:19:11] Like no.

[00:19:14] Do you remember there being like a stigma about that?

[00:19:19] Like within kind of just your personal relationships or with other

[00:19:22] families that were in the cult?

[00:19:24] Do you remember that being like a friend?

[00:19:26] Yeah.

[00:19:27] Um, do I know anyone who ever even talked about adoption?

[00:19:33] Was it just that taboo that it wasn't even a thing?

[00:19:36] Well, the other thing was people had so many freaking kids and so many

[00:19:40] mouths to feed.

[00:19:40] I don't think they could afford to bring on our kids.

[00:19:46] I guess maybe a different or better question would be, do you remember

[00:19:49] there being like women in the cult that like couldn't actually have children

[00:19:53] or they had very few children and didn't have the option of adoption?

[00:19:58] Remember the guy who tried to do the whole Melaleuca MLM thing?

[00:20:06] He and his wife didn't have kids.

[00:20:08] And I don't think I ever heard them talk about adoption.

[00:20:10] And we spent a lot of time with them.

[00:20:12] I could be wrong.

[00:20:13] I was a kid, so I wasn't, you know, always around them when they were

[00:20:17] over at our house.

[00:20:19] But most of the time we had to like sit there and be good.

[00:20:23] You can just drop a little bit.

[00:20:25] I don't ever remember them talking about adoption.

[00:20:30] I don't know why they couldn't have kids.

[00:20:34] Trying to think of there's anyone else.

[00:20:38] I think everyone else we knew had gobs of children.

[00:20:41] Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it.

[00:20:44] It sounds like most the cult families are large families and didn't

[00:20:50] have any issues with reproductive systems.

[00:20:54] No, I don't.

[00:20:55] I don't remember meeting anyone who was adopted.

[00:20:59] So interestingly, I don't think that that was something I really knew

[00:21:03] about as a kid.

[00:21:05] I don't think I was tracking the whole anti-adoption thing.

[00:21:09] I started considering the possibility of someday adopting when

[00:21:13] I was probably in my mid teens.

[00:21:16] And I think I was kind of vocal about it, at least within my family.

[00:21:22] And I think I think that's when I found out about sins of the fathers and stuff.

[00:21:29] I don't think I was ever like discouraged from it as much as

[00:21:32] Rick was like, well, you know, the sins of the fathers can enter

[00:21:37] your family system through the kids.

[00:21:39] So you just have to be really wise.

[00:21:41] Well, I think there was I think that's when I actually found out about it.

[00:21:44] I mean, hearing you talk about it, it sounds like it was a kind of

[00:21:49] a shadow rule.

[00:21:53] It was just like, we don't really preach it.

[00:21:55] But if you start bringing that up or if you have fertility issues,

[00:22:00] oh, now we got a rule for that.

[00:22:03] We're going to pull this out of the backlog and shame you for it.

[00:22:05] And say it's unholy and then crucify you.

[00:22:09] And then once you're beat down and give up on that, then we'll go back

[00:22:13] to pretending that never happened.

[00:22:16] And I don't know if it was ever that violent in the.

[00:22:19] I found like one tiny little excerpt from the Care Bulletin five again, medical.

[00:22:26] And it said something about how like the intro to the bulletin

[00:22:31] was something along the lines of like, you have to have great wisdom

[00:22:36] and discernment when deciding on adoption.

[00:22:39] And it was worded in a way where it wasn't like this is a hard and fast

[00:22:43] rule, but also you have to talk to someone in, you know, on the ATI staff

[00:22:48] if you're even thinking about it.

[00:22:50] I can imagine how those conversations went.

[00:22:51] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:53] So how did that influence your view on adoption now?

[00:22:58] I don't have a flying fuck with those things.

[00:23:00] So you've completely like.

[00:23:01] Oh yeah, I got a left behind.

[00:23:03] I don't think that was even something I ever like picked up.

[00:23:06] OK. Yeah.

[00:23:09] No, I'm very pro adoption.

[00:23:13] So.

[00:23:14] Well, that's that's good that that didn't.

[00:23:18] You know, seep down into the deep crevices of your.

[00:23:23] I think people processes should be loved.

[00:23:27] And if you can give a kid a safe loving home.

[00:23:34] That's a beautiful thing.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:36] Even if the kid is traumatized and struggles.

[00:23:41] So no, they can go kick rocks.

[00:23:44] I mean, there's so many situations in which that may happen unintentionally,

[00:23:49] like what would happen to.

[00:23:52] You know, if there was a cult family and the mother and father

[00:23:56] get killed in a car accident or something like that, like.

[00:24:00] What happens then?

[00:24:01] Is that just something that never happened?

[00:24:03] And he didn't have to think of a solution to that?

[00:24:06] That's really interesting.

[00:24:07] But I can tell you like from how how the state handles that kind of stuff.

[00:24:13] So I know a lot of folks are always so scared

[00:24:16] that kids are going to get like ripped away and go into foster care and like,

[00:24:20] you know, and that does happen.

[00:24:22] Kids go into foster care, but most states are all about reunification.

[00:24:27] So if they can't get the kid back with their biological parent,

[00:24:31] they'll try to get the kid with a biological relative who's safe and stable.

[00:24:36] That's why you see a lot of grandparents adopting grandkids.

[00:24:39] That's why you see, you know, brothers and sisters taking in their

[00:24:44] so in that case, their nieces and nephews and stuff like that.

[00:24:47] So.

[00:24:49] Everyone freaks out that, you know, kids are just going to be ripped

[00:24:53] asunder, but there's most states want kids with their biological family

[00:24:59] in some way, shape or form.

[00:25:01] So they really try to do that.

[00:25:05] And in my opinion, some judges are far too lenient and give really abusive

[00:25:12] parents way too many chances and those parents end up harming their children.

[00:25:16] But that's another topic for another day.

[00:25:18] And I digress for the moment.

[00:25:19] But.

[00:25:21] I guess.

[00:25:23] Yeah, like if there were a situation where both parents were unexpectedly killed,

[00:25:29] then just the way the system works, they try to get them with biological.

[00:25:35] I mean, just in the sins of their fathers would at least stay in the lineage.

[00:25:38] Kyle. Yeah, I was just curious, you know, any of these things, the rules and the cult,

[00:25:44] I feel like there's a situation in which you could flip that around and be like,

[00:25:50] what now, Bill? Like, oh, oh, oh, that reminds me.

[00:25:54] These are cult kids and their parents died and you're saying, OK, well,

[00:25:59] there's no adoption.

[00:26:01] That's not, you know, that's unholy.

[00:26:03] So it's just like, do those.

[00:26:05] Does he want those kids to just raise themselves like the seven year old?

[00:26:10] Just better figure a shit out like you're not getting adopted.

[00:26:13] We don't do that.

[00:26:14] I am so distracted right now because you said what now, Bill.

[00:26:18] And they like flashback so hard to the military.

[00:26:22] They had this series called What Now, Lieutenant for new officers.

[00:26:27] And they were the dumbest videos.

[00:26:29] They were supposed to like role play difficult scenarios that you might face

[00:26:34] in your military career.

[00:26:35] And it was like really poorly done, super corny, but like Uber dramatic.

[00:26:40] And then it would always end the scenario with what now, Lieutenant?

[00:26:44] And I just I'm imagining that thing but the cult.

[00:26:50] Oh, Jesus.

[00:26:51] And now that's stuck in my head.

[00:26:53] Kyle, thank you.

[00:26:55] So what was the question?

[00:26:58] I mean, I was still just talking about the fact that, you know, these says.

[00:27:04] Adoptions unholy.

[00:27:05] And if you end up in a situation where there's orphaned kids,

[00:27:10] would he say, OK, well, some other cult family needs to adopt them.

[00:27:14] And now that's OK because they're cult kids.

[00:27:17] I don't know. Or leave them to die.

[00:27:20] They don't have parents who knows.

[00:27:23] Now I'm going to have to like go Google this and figure it out.

[00:27:26] If you guys know the answer to this, please message us.

[00:27:30] Kyle would really like to know.

[00:27:31] I don't include myself in that because while I will read it because I do read our

[00:27:36] messages, I also like don't care because it was a bill thing.

[00:27:42] Yes. So I imagine there's a lot of different, you know,

[00:27:46] it's still curious to me and for you, you're just like, I don't want to know

[00:27:50] any more than I already know.

[00:27:52] Oh, man. And if you were adopted by someone in the cult and you feel like that's

[00:27:57] something you could share about on our platform, we'd probably love to

[00:28:02] interview on the podcast too.

[00:28:04] That could be interesting.

[00:28:06] Oh, I mean, like I said, it's a very interesting scenario when you

[00:28:11] ostracize people for adoption and then you end up in a situation where

[00:28:16] that's necessary.

[00:28:17] Any other hilarious part of this is like, don't adopt.

[00:28:21] Don't give kids who need a good home a good home.

[00:28:24] But oh, hey, if you had a tubal

[00:28:26] ligation or a vasectomy, get that undone and make more babies.

[00:28:29] Mm hmm. Like what the fuck?

[00:28:32] Yeah, I mean, if you guess, I guess if you just step back and

[00:28:37] look at this from a Christianity perspective, it's just like.

[00:28:43] So doesn't the Bible literally say to like take care of the widows

[00:28:47] and the fatherless?

[00:28:48] Yeah. So it's like now where's your argument?

[00:28:52] How are you creating this argument when there's other Bible verses?

[00:28:56] Again, Kyle, don't bring your logic into this.

[00:28:59] It's hard not to bring logic into these situations.

[00:29:03] Like it's just kind of hearing all of his

[00:29:05] asinine ideas.

[00:29:08] I just naturally want to try to pick it apart.

[00:29:12] And I guess I'll never get those answers.

[00:29:17] I don't think so, because at the end of the day, it's a cult and it doesn't make sense.

[00:29:22] And cults aren't set up to make sense.

[00:29:26] They're set up to be just confusing enough that you think you're the problem

[00:29:32] the whole time, so you continue to blindly follow.

[00:29:34] And that folks might be the most profound thing you ever hear on this podcast.

[00:29:40] So they so he says or Bill says,

[00:29:45] don't adopt kids because you'll bring in the sins of the father to your family.

[00:29:50] Well, what about the sins of the mother?

[00:29:52] Is that it? It's a woman.

[00:29:54] It doesn't count like you keep forgetting that women don't count.

[00:29:59] They don't matter.

[00:30:01] I mean, I love you because you are like, well, what about women?

[00:30:05] But also, Kyle, it's a woman.

[00:30:08] It doesn't count.

[00:30:09] It doesn't matter if she does she even exist only for procreation purposes.

[00:30:14] I guess I guess he has no no impact on that child

[00:30:18] biologically or not or mentally or spiritually or anything.

[00:30:23] Just no no mark on that kid.

[00:30:26] She's just a vessel to make the babies.

[00:30:29] OK, that's her whole point in life.

[00:30:30] All right, well, good.

[00:30:33] Good to know we're back to, you know,

[00:30:36] misogyny, patriarchy, same old

[00:30:39] I think I saw something else.

[00:30:44] Oh, man, it was like a comment somewhere.

[00:30:46] Someone said that they were adopted

[00:30:49] and I BLP was no longer a good fit for their family after that.

[00:30:54] So they left.

[00:30:55] But I think there are people out there who have those experiences with IBLP.

[00:31:01] Like they were adopted by a cult family that didn't go over really well.

[00:31:06] The family left the cult.

[00:31:07] So that's not a bad thing, I guess.

[00:31:09] No, they ended up leaving the cult for the best.

[00:31:13] Well, definitely was for the best.

[00:31:16] But yeah, it's such an interesting and interesting theory or practice on his

[00:31:23] part on Bill's part.

[00:31:25] I'd definitely be curious to talk to somebody that was either.

[00:31:29] You know, a part of a family in the cult that adopted or was adopted into the cult.

[00:31:34] I can't like being adopted into the cult.

[00:31:39] That would be.

[00:31:40] Can you imagine if you were a little bit older and you were a girl

[00:31:43] and and you and you like got adopted into a mega repressive environment

[00:31:49] and you were used to being able to wear like tank tops and shorts.

[00:31:52] And now you have to wear turtlenecks and skirts.

[00:31:55] Huh, I mean, I'm sure it would have been a shock for anybody.

[00:31:59] Yeah, like it it sounds the culture in the cult

[00:32:03] in even those within the specific family systems.

[00:32:07] So I feel like drastically different than

[00:32:09] yeah, normal in air quotes, normal families that it would have been.

[00:32:14] I mean, the kid would have definitely

[00:32:16] acted out because they would have lost a lot of

[00:32:20] privileges they probably had before and freedoms.

[00:32:24] Maybe that's why the two stories Bill told

[00:32:28] maybe that's what was wrong with the kids.

[00:32:30] They were being reasonable about oppression.

[00:32:34] And we can't have that, Kyle.

[00:32:36] No, you can't have anything.

[00:32:38] No, no, rights, schmite.

[00:32:40] You ain't got no rights.

[00:32:42] I don't know how many times Rick said that to me growing up.

[00:32:45] Really? Yeah.

[00:32:47] You've never heard that?

[00:32:48] I don't think I've heard you say that before.

[00:32:50] Oh yeah, rights, schmite.

[00:32:52] You ain't got no rights.

[00:32:55] That was like a daily thing that was said in my home.

[00:32:59] That's not normal.

[00:33:01] Paragists don't say that.

[00:33:02] Oh, I'm sure they do say something to that extent of just like, I'm the you know,

[00:33:09] you're doing what I say because I'm the adult or because I said because I said so.

[00:33:14] It was usually different.

[00:33:16] Well, think of that because I said so is, you know, it's whatever.

[00:33:21] It's a response parents finally get to when they're sick of why, why, why, why?

[00:33:26] But when you when you tell someone they don't have rights,

[00:33:29] which is not true, you do have rights as a human.

[00:33:34] Can you see how that sets people up for abuse?

[00:33:37] Like abusive relationships, staying in toxic relationships,

[00:33:42] staying in toxic work environments, staying in the cold like.

[00:33:47] Oh, especially from your father telling you that as a girl child.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:54] Definitely.

[00:33:55] Yeah.

[00:33:55] That would, yeah.

[00:33:56] That that would mess you up after a lifetime or, you know, 18 years or however many years

[00:34:02] until you marry, Kyle, until you marry being told like you do what I tell you

[00:34:07] because you have no autonomy.

[00:34:10] You don't even have, you know, the right to your own privacy and bodily autonomy.

[00:34:18] Well, I think after all that, we can officially say that Bill

[00:34:22] Gothen had some pretty fucked up ideas on adoption and they don't make any sense at

[00:34:26] all, which tracks with everything else about the IBLB cult.

[00:34:30] Yeah.

[00:34:31] His crazy ideas that are like Swiss cheese with holes in them.

[00:34:36] Yes.

[00:34:37] So I like it.

[00:34:39] I like it.

[00:34:40] Some housekeeping.

[00:34:42] I am trying to get caught up on messages, but I don't know.

[00:34:46] So everyone who sent in messages through the website.

[00:34:51] I am caught up to, let me see if I can find the date.

[00:34:56] But I guess I'm bringing this up because I don't know if it's going to people's

[00:34:59] spam folders.

[00:35:01] So if you have sent us a message

[00:35:07] like through the website, I am caught up through

[00:35:11] let me find a calendar.

[00:35:13] I am caught up through April 29th.

[00:35:17] So if you sent us a message before April 29th and you haven't seen an answer,

[00:35:23] check your spam.

[00:35:25] OK, and then everyone else, thank you for your patience.

[00:35:29] I'm still sorting through all of our social media messages and comments.

[00:35:35] Also today is May the 4th.

[00:35:37] So you won't hear this for a few more days, but may the 4th be with you

[00:35:42] because that's very important.

[00:35:45] What other?

[00:35:46] Oh, we've had some fans respond to our question about how you would like to build

[00:35:51] community and we really appreciate that.

[00:35:55] Thank you. Please continue to send in your ideas.

[00:35:57] We want to see which ideas are most popular with our listener base.

[00:36:03] So we've had folks say closed Facebook groups,

[00:36:07] Discord, what are some of the other ones?

[00:36:11] Like there was a fan Wiki or something.

[00:36:14] Yeah.

[00:36:16] There's been some interest in a monthly newsletter.

[00:36:20] So, yeah, please get your votes in because I'm a researcher, guys.

[00:36:26] I need the data. I need the data.

[00:36:28] I must have data.

[00:36:30] So please give me something I can make a beautiful pie chart out of.

[00:36:35] Yes, I'll post it.

[00:36:40] She's not lying about that.

[00:36:41] I'm just sitting here probably like stars and hearts coming out of my eyes

[00:36:45] because I'm talking about data.

[00:36:49] What else?

[00:36:50] I think the only thing I would

[00:36:52] only other thing I would say is we're

[00:36:55] we're in a transition period right now.

[00:36:57] So we are doing our best to at least make sure the episodes are still coming out.

[00:37:01] Those will be coming out every Monday, but

[00:37:04] the replies and the posts and the social media stuff, you've probably seen it

[00:37:10] tick down a little bit because we are busy with some home stuff.

[00:37:15] And obviously getting ready for Amanda to go back to get her PhD, go back to the

[00:37:21] university and get her PhD.

[00:37:23] So lots of changes happening, but we're going to keep chucking.

[00:37:27] Also, chugging along and we'll pick back up for sure once we get moved and

[00:37:35] get through all that.

[00:37:38] And we are thankful.

[00:37:39] We one of our listeners is now our realtor and has hooked us up.

[00:37:44] And we are.

[00:37:46] We love you.

[00:37:47] Thanks, Stacy.

[00:37:48] We are moving your direction.

[00:37:51] And also,

[00:37:54] you guys, I was researching some merch options.

[00:37:59] And there are temporary tattoos,

[00:38:02] which I think is just fabulous since the cold is so anti tattoo.

[00:38:07] I have three tattoos, so fuck you, Bill.

[00:38:09] But I think we need temporary tattoos.

[00:38:14] I'm just, I don't know if I'm the only person who wants this, then I'll just get

[00:38:18] them for myself or maybe I'll get a permanent one.

[00:38:21] Who knows?

[00:38:22] But I wouldn't put it past you either, though.

[00:38:26] Don't do that.

[00:38:27] No, I.

[00:38:28] Well, OK, that's a different talk for a different time.

[00:38:32] Yes.

[00:38:32] But if if you like the idea of temporary tattoos, that's definitely something

[00:38:38] that I'm considering also the eye trap clothing items.

[00:38:44] Yes, let's say eye trap everywhere there's an eye trap.

[00:38:49] Some folks have said they would I think where the hell out of those was the quote.

[00:38:54] So that's something I'm still thinking about.

[00:38:59] I love coffee, so probably mugs will be somewhere in the future.

[00:39:04] Yeah.

[00:39:05] But if you have ideas for stuff that would be fun,

[00:39:09] please let us know because that's something we're we're thinking about doing.

[00:39:14] Eventually, one life settles down just a little bit.

[00:39:16] But if you know me in real life and you see me walking around with like a million

[00:39:22] tattoos on my arms, I might just be testing out temporary tattoo designs.

[00:39:26] Just roll with it.

[00:39:28] It's fine.

[00:39:29] Anything else?

[00:39:30] No, I think that's all the housekeeping

[00:39:34] for today and our episode on adoption and we'll be back on Monday.

[00:39:40] Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind.

[00:39:43] Until next time, don't join a cult.

[00:39:46] If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share and subscribe,

[00:39:50] and we will catch you on the next episode.