34 - What If I'm Weird?

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast.

[00:00:05] I'm your host, Amanda Briggs, and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the

[00:00:11] IBLP cult which you might know from the Duggar family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs.

[00:00:17] I am Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned

[00:00:22] and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:30] Alright, welcome back to the next episode.

[00:00:33] So we've got a little story to tell.

[00:00:36] We were talking about this earlier so we decided let's just record an episode about this.

[00:00:41] We were at a retirement party recently and we were just chit chatting at our table making

[00:00:50] friends and somehow it came up.

[00:00:53] We were talking about what we all do and hobbies and work and…

[00:00:57] So we mentioned that we've been working on this podcast and mentioned about a cult.

[00:01:04] And everyone's like, a cult?

[00:01:06] A cult podcast?

[00:01:08] Yes.

[00:01:09] And eventually in that conversation or I guess towards the beginning of that they

[00:01:13] were like you're not weird or like…

[00:01:16] To me?

[00:01:17] Yeah, they said something along those lines.

[00:01:19] Well I think it was actually toward the end of the evening she was like, you're

[00:01:23] so normal.

[00:01:25] I never would have guessed you grew up in a cult.

[00:01:28] And I feel like I get that one a lot which cracks me up because I think I'm super

[00:01:33] awkward and I still get some social anxiety and I am pretty sure I'm always failing

[00:01:40] in social interactions.

[00:01:42] Yes, there's a lot of reassurance that like no you're fine.

[00:01:48] But on top of that I had a very similar reaction when we met because you let the

[00:01:54] cat out of the bag pretty early that like you were in a cult and I think you've told

[00:01:58] the story before where you kind of like panicked.

[00:02:00] There was stuff that came out.

[00:02:01] And you were like, uh oh.

[00:02:02] I didn't mean to say that yet.

[00:02:03] I got invited to go on a podcast right before I left to meet you for our second

[00:02:08] date.

[00:02:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:10] Yeah.

[00:02:11] And so then I was like, oh what's the podcast about?

[00:02:14] Or what are we talking about?

[00:02:15] I was being interviewed about my book.

[00:02:19] So you found out I was a sexual assault survivor and a cult survivor on our

[00:02:23] second date which is so normal.

[00:02:26] Totally normal.

[00:02:27] So I had the same reaction.

[00:02:29] I was like, OK well I've been talking to this woman online because that's how we

[00:02:33] met because COVID and then we had met up once before.

[00:02:38] Walked around in the cold for hours because there was nowhere we could go in.

[00:02:43] So at that point I was like, OK well I've been around this person for a

[00:02:46] little bit, you know, a couple hours and talked online for several hours at

[00:02:52] that point and I was like, I didn't.

[00:02:55] She's pretty normal.

[00:02:56] Like so I can relate to that where it was just like you don't seem like

[00:03:02] you grew up in a cult and the podcast is out there now.

[00:03:06] We get a ton of messages and comments and stuff and I've even been like kind

[00:03:13] of cruising through Reddit and checking out like the cult subreddits

[00:03:16] there and stuff and I've noticed that there's a lot of people especially on

[00:03:20] the cult subreddits because there's like a cult survivor one.

[00:03:23] Oh, cool.

[00:03:24] And a couple of some IBLP specific ones, but I've seen on there

[00:03:29] there's a lot of people that are like.

[00:03:32] I grew up in a cult, but like I don't know how to socialize with people

[00:03:36] and I have like this tremendous anxiety and I'm just scared to death

[00:03:39] of like normal air quotes, normal people because of growing up in a cult.

[00:03:47] And so I thought that would be an interesting topic tonight just based off

[00:03:51] of kind of all the feedback we've how did I get normal?

[00:03:55] Yeah. No big deal.

[00:03:57] How'd you get normal, Amanda?

[00:04:01] I have this really terrible habit of putting myself in situations

[00:04:07] that are horrendously uncomfortable and force me to grow.

[00:04:12] And I always wonder why I do it to myself.

[00:04:16] It's worked, I guess.

[00:04:19] So I mean, did you have like, did you have that anxiety?

[00:04:21] Oh, God, yes.

[00:04:23] I guess it would have been when you went to college by for the first time.

[00:04:26] Well, it was actually when I joined the Symphony Chorus when I was 16.

[00:04:30] Wait, pause back up.

[00:04:33] It probably actually started with voice lessons.

[00:04:37] Now, my first voice teacher, I worked with her for a year.

[00:04:42] And I think she knew I was a little weird.

[00:04:46] But my second voice teacher, I worked with her for three or four years.

[00:04:49] So she had a lot of time to figure out I was weird.

[00:04:52] And I got to the point where I was spending some time around her other

[00:05:00] students because she was a college voice professor of music and taught

[00:05:05] vocal performance at a university.

[00:05:08] And so when when we would go do competitions and stuff,

[00:05:13] she would invite me to come to the group rehearsals where everyone

[00:05:17] practiced singing their songs in front of everyone else who was going to be competing.

[00:05:22] And I got to travel with them sometimes.

[00:05:26] And and I think I think that's where it actually started like, oh,

[00:05:30] I'm weird and different, uh, especially how I dressed for competitions

[00:05:37] because I had to be in ankle length skirts and all this stuff,

[00:05:42] which was a little too formal for the setting because it was, you know,

[00:05:47] it was daytime.

[00:05:49] You could wear dress pants or you could wear a knee length skirt or,

[00:05:52] you know, something like that.

[00:05:53] That's what everyone else was wearing.

[00:05:56] And I showed up in these floor length pieces, which scream evening formal.

[00:06:02] So yeah, I think it started before the chorus.

[00:06:05] And then in the chorus when I was 16 and joined that the adults

[00:06:09] were very curious about this, this teenager who was suddenly hanging out with them.

[00:06:15] And they were so sweet to me.

[00:06:16] They were so kind, but they had a lot of questions.

[00:06:18] And that's when I realized like, I don't have a lot of answers for these people.

[00:06:24] So there was there was social awkwardness with that.

[00:06:28] There was some anxiety with that.

[00:06:29] And then yeah, I went to college.

[00:06:31] And even though I attended a really conservative college, I was

[00:06:37] I was hyper conservative compared to the people who attended that university for the most part.

[00:06:43] Conservatives. What was that?

[00:06:44] The normal conservatives.

[00:06:45] Yeah, I guess.

[00:06:46] Well, there was there was another group of siblings who came from the IBLP Colt.

[00:06:52] Oh, really?

[00:06:53] And in my terror, I thought I was going to have to like marry the guy.

[00:07:01] Well, because, you know, he kind of flirted with me and

[00:07:05] at that time it was, you know, who understands courtship, which is God's way, you know?

[00:07:10] And those were the only available options.

[00:07:14] And I would wear pants at school.

[00:07:18] I wore jeans and khakis and stuff.

[00:07:21] And anytime I wore a skirt, his sisters would be like, Oh, Amanda, you look so nice today.

[00:07:27] So great when you dress in a feminine way.

[00:07:30] And and that scared me more.

[00:07:33] I was afraid he was going to try to court me.

[00:07:36] Yeah.

[00:07:37] So was that a deterrent to not dress in the skirts anymore?

[00:07:40] Oh, I stopped wearing skirts entirely.

[00:07:43] Yeah.

[00:07:43] Unless I had to because, you know, we would we would wear skirts for performances there too.

[00:07:49] But at that point I was wearing knee length skirts.

[00:07:52] So I fit in a little better.

[00:07:54] But I had a lot of weird things that I said and.

[00:07:59] Oh, man.

[00:08:01] I've talked about my friends, Ash and Mandy before who were like, Hey, maybe don't say that.

[00:08:07] And one time I upset Mandy because we had chapel.

[00:08:12] It was mandatory.

[00:08:12] We had to go, I think like three times a week, maybe four, I forget.

[00:08:15] And they did, you know, modern praise and worship.

[00:08:20] So there were drums, which Kyle meant they were calling for Satan to enter the building and our hearts.

[00:08:27] And I said something in the middle of a worship session because because there were rules that I still followed, even when I got to college.

[00:08:35] You know, the family rules of their backpits.

[00:08:37] You don't stand up and participate in the singing.

[00:08:39] You remain seated to show your descent for the demonic worship that was occurring.

[00:08:44] So I did that kind of stuff for the first year, maybe year or two.

[00:08:47] I don't remember.

[00:08:48] I eventually stopped because I started stepping away from the cold.

[00:08:54] But yeah, one time early on I said something about how horrible the music was to Mandy and how awful it was that, you know, they were doing such secular and satanic things in chapel.

[00:09:03] And we had to participate.

[00:09:04] She was like, I mean, I was actually like in the zone worshiping.

[00:09:08] And that really just threw me off.

[00:09:11] Why are you the way you are?

[00:09:12] She said a little nicer than that, but she did kind of snap at me.

[00:09:15] And that really just threw me off.

[00:09:18] Why are you the way you are?

[00:09:20] But you did kind of snap at me and that got me thinking.

[00:09:25] Well, OK, the first thing I did, like all religious zealots, I left chapel and I went to the music department where all the hyper conservative old white men were all the professors because they also dissented about bringing drums into worship of Christ.

[00:09:44] So we just had a pow wow about how horrible like the school was just going down the drain, chasing hard after Satan.

[00:09:50] I hung out with them for the rest of the chapel service that day.

[00:09:53] Yeah. Yeah, I was weird.

[00:09:56] I was weird.

[00:09:58] So was it hard for you to like get to come to that realization and like what happened?

[00:10:04] I guess that I was weird.

[00:10:06] Well, it was different in it.

[00:10:08] Like.

[00:10:09] You you were surrounded by people that didn't agree with me.

[00:10:14] Agree with those.

[00:10:15] Oh, oh, oh.

[00:10:16] And then I was in a philosophy course and we had to critique something about the church or something.

[00:10:22] So obviously I chose drums for worship music.

[00:10:26] My philosophy professor ripped the paper to shreds with a red pen, not grammar, but like this argument is illogical.

[00:10:35] This doesn't make it.

[00:10:36] Of course, I was saying what I knew about cult stuff.

[00:10:41] And I was so offended and then I showed it to Rick and Amy and they were like, your professor is horrible.

[00:10:47] Everything you said was true and right before God.

[00:10:51] And then I felt very vindicated.

[00:10:52] But then there was also this voice in the back of my head like, maybe this guy's got a point.

[00:10:57] Maybe your argument wasn't logical.

[00:10:59] You were just regurgitating everything you were told your whole life.

[00:11:03] I didn't realize how weird I was in college until after college, which is unfortunate, which is unfortunate.

[00:11:09] But I also had.

[00:11:12] I think when you're on your way out of one of those really restrictive oppressive environments where you were where you didn't like I didn't fully buy into a lot of the bullshit.

[00:11:22] I obviously did around music there for a while, which that ship sailed.

[00:11:26] I love Eminem by the way.

[00:11:29] But I can I can wrap a lot of them.

[00:11:37] Cuss words and all.

[00:11:39] But there was a lot that I didn't agree with and I pushed back on, but you I was still forced to participate in it growing up.

[00:11:48] I was still forced to act like I agreed with everything going on.

[00:11:55] So there's this really awkward moment when you're when you're realizing like, wow, I might be weird, but also you have this protective bubble of, but I am righteous because I've been told I am righteous and everyone else is wrong.

[00:12:09] And they're all on a path following Satan straight down to hell.

[00:12:13] You know, so that's intense.

[00:12:16] Well, yeah, I mean it was it's really hard to be one of the only people in the world who actually knows what's up Kyle.

[00:12:25] That's dangerous.

[00:12:26] Oh, it is.

[00:12:27] It is.

[00:12:28] I'm real glad that that's not, you know, that was half a lifetime ago.

[00:12:31] But you see, you kind of you have initially you have this protective bubble of but I'm righteous, right?

[00:12:37] They're like, I'm okay.

[00:12:39] They're they're the problem.

[00:12:41] I'm okay.

[00:12:42] And then the longer you're away from the cult, you start to realize like, oh wait, I'm the problem to hotel or Swift.

[00:12:51] It's me.

[00:12:52] Hi, I'm the problem.

[00:12:53] It's me.

[00:12:54] They're all okay.

[00:12:56] And that that's that's a painful transition.

[00:13:01] And I think a lot of that happened during my previous marriage.

[00:13:07] I'm trying to think it was it was probably my early 20s to my mid 20s where I really had to come to terms with the fact that

[00:13:23] the cult was the problem.

[00:13:25] The cult was weird.

[00:13:27] Everyone else was, you know, not as misogynistic and oppressive and abusive as the cult.

[00:13:37] I'm not giving the rest of the world a free pass because there's still a lot of issues but you know what I mean?

[00:13:42] And I had friends at the time who were also kind of coming out of that homeschool environment.

[00:13:53] You know, we'd all reached adulthood and we were all out there in the real world with real jobs and not living in our parents' homes.

[00:14:04] And we did a lot of information sharing like, oh, this is weird.

[00:14:09] I learned that this is weird.

[00:14:11] Oh, okay.

[00:14:12] I'll note that.

[00:14:13] Hey, also I learned this is weird.

[00:14:15] So it helps to have friends who are also on the way out of the same environment you're trying to escape.

[00:14:22] And if you can be vulnerable and honest and give each other feedback and share like, oh, I learned this.

[00:14:29] Don't say that or, hey, this is a movie everyone in the whole world has seen except us, which I didn't.

[00:14:35] I didn't prioritize a bunch and I still don't like, I just accept it.

[00:14:39] There's there are a ton of movies I've never seen.

[00:14:42] There are a ton of TV shows.

[00:14:44] There are a ton of public figures, tons of music, tons of stuff that everyone else my age knows and I don't know.

[00:14:51] And that's okay.

[00:14:52] I've chosen to focus my energy on learning other things not watching every movie I ever missed.

[00:15:00] My ex took that approach.

[00:15:02] I think I've mentioned that before.

[00:15:03] He was like, okay, I got to catch up and he spent years watching every episode of every TV show that was possible.

[00:15:09] That was popular that in a normal environment he would have seen and listening to every song by every artist.

[00:15:16] Like, I don't think even liked a lot of the music.

[00:15:19] It wasn't to his taste, but he was like, I got to catch up.

[00:15:22] And I mean, that's fine.

[00:15:24] You can do that if you want to that just wasn't me.

[00:15:26] But I did really appreciate and take note when other people who were coming out of restrictive environment shared what they learned or gave me feedback like, you're weird in this way.

[00:15:38] So I think it does take a lot of vulnerability and a lot of courage to get to seek out and do something with feedback that you're weird because you came from a weird environment.

[00:15:52] And I would say don't just blindly put yourself in a situation where people are telling you you're weird.

[00:15:59] It was okay because they were weird too.

[00:16:01] Like we were all in it together.

[00:16:03] There wasn't judgment and we were all trying to help each other assimilate to the real world and normalcy.

[00:16:11] And I don't even remember fully how it happened.

[00:16:15] I think I'm still a little surprised when people tell me like, oh, you're so normal because I know my whole story.

[00:16:21] And I know the things I still don't know.

[00:16:23] And I know there are a lot of things I still don't know.

[00:16:26] And I don't know, I guess it's just it is what it is.

[00:16:31] And I could spend a lot of time being real upset that I don't get all the pop culture references and I haven't seen all the movies or I could heal and grow and do things that I think impact the greater good.

[00:16:48] So I work in IT.

[00:16:51] And anybody's dealt with IT people, you know, they can be a strange bunch of people.

[00:16:57] I'm saying this because I work in IT like they're usually hermits.

[00:17:01] They're very introverts in a public facing job.

[00:17:05] I don't understand.

[00:17:06] They like computers.

[00:17:07] They hate people and they end up in IT doing like help desk support.

[00:17:11] And I'm just like, you literally have to answer the phone all day and go to people's desks and help them on computers.

[00:17:16] But early in my career, I ended up running across some guys that came guys and gals.

[00:17:23] Actually, they came from like very restrictive Mormon homes and Jehovah's Witness.

[00:17:30] And they were weird.

[00:17:32] And we gave them a lot of shit.

[00:17:35] Which isn't kind.

[00:17:37] It wasn't.

[00:17:39] We weren't mean about it.

[00:17:41] But you could tell they were weird.

[00:17:44] And as somebody who didn't come from one of those environments, you're just like, oh, that person's weird.

[00:17:48] And then you find out like, oh, they came from like this really strict religious background.

[00:17:53] You're like, OK, that makes sense.

[00:17:56] And you just kind of like roll with it at that point.

[00:17:58] I mean, I guess as long as it's loving and kind.

[00:18:01] Yeah.

[00:18:02] Because there's a way where you can give people shit that's malicious and there's a way you can give people shit.

[00:18:06] Like my friends in college were like, I got you.

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:10] And it definitely turned into that too.

[00:18:12] Is that you're just like, oh, you haven't heard about this or oh, like, do you know about this?

[00:18:16] And like, and I like, I wonder now, like, is that too much?

[00:18:20] Like because you get very curious about it and you start asking all these questions.

[00:18:24] Like, do you know about this or did you ever you can get down and like, have you seen this show?

[00:18:29] Or do you know this band or whatever?

[00:18:31] But you kind of get like as a normal person or someone that didn't grow up when he's like really normal.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] If you don't grow up one of these strict religious backgrounds, like is that is that that happened to you?

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] Is that annoying?

[00:18:46] Like did that happen to you?

[00:18:47] Yeah, it happened to me.

[00:18:49] I would say that the answer to that is probably very personality driven.

[00:18:53] Like my ex, it really when people did that, it really dug into his insecurities with me.

[00:19:01] I don't know.

[00:19:02] I guess it never really I would say where it got annoying was if people were like,

[00:19:06] you haven't seen this, you haven't seen that, you haven't seen this, you haven't seen that.

[00:19:11] I'm like, okay, give it a rest.

[00:19:12] We've established the fact that I did not grow up in a normal way.

[00:19:16] The likelihood is I haven't seen it like breathe.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:23] Breathe.

[00:19:24] It's going to be okay.

[00:19:25] I'm not freaking out about the fact that I haven't seen it.

[00:19:29] So yeah, I would say that's very personality dependent.

[00:19:33] And it probably also has a lot to do with where a person is in the process of leaving the repressive environment.

[00:19:41] Because if they're very new to it, that could probably be very overwhelming.

[00:19:45] And it also it might not register for them that they're odd in that way.

[00:19:53] And I'm odd in that way.

[00:19:54] So I say that without judgment.

[00:19:56] But yeah, I don't know.

[00:20:00] You'd have to get everyone who is ever in a repressive environment in the same room and ask for a show of hands.

[00:20:08] Yeah, I mean the interesting part for me was like, I was working in a very customer service oriented job and their social skills were different.

[00:20:20] I wouldn't say they were bad, but they were different and they were weird.

[00:20:24] And that can cause problems sometimes when you're working in customer service.

[00:20:29] And so there was a lot of kind of teaching like, hey, that's a little weird.

[00:20:36] Maybe don't say that.

[00:20:38] So you have to...

[00:20:41] Well part of, I don't know about every repressive environment ever, but I would say in the cult there was the whole children shall be seen and not heard thing around adults.

[00:20:53] Or what we talked about the genius child is only ever around adults.

[00:20:59] Of course you're not going to learn social skills from your peers if you're in an environment where you're constantly around adults and you're supposed to be emulating adults and always acting like an adult, but also being silent and also being perfect.

[00:21:14] No, you're not going to get that.

[00:21:16] So I had, I rescued a horse once.

[00:21:20] His name is Dante and I got him when he was a couple weeks old.

[00:21:25] He was an orphan and I raised him and it was extra hard to raise that horse because he didn't have a mom who kicked him around and taught him herd manners.

[00:21:39] And I think it's a lot like that growing up as a kid.

[00:21:44] I'm guessing here because I didn't grow up normally, but you go to school and other kids kind of kick you around and teach you herd manners or herd patterns.

[00:21:56] What's normal in the herd?

[00:21:58] So people like me who grew up in really weird repressive environments, we are probably more literally kicked around, but we're learning a very different version of what's appropriate and what's right.

[00:22:13] Or we're getting absolutely zero feedback.

[00:22:16] So I would say probably the folks you worked with just didn't get social feedback from anyone about probably anything.

[00:22:24] So it's intimidating to try to go out into the world after growing up in one of those environments.

[00:22:33] And I guess that's where I would encourage everyone to be compassionate and be trauma informed if you encounter someone who has some weird social mannerisms,

[00:22:45] especially if you find out they grew up in a repressive or cold or cold like environment because it's truly not their fault that they don't know how to maneuver

[00:22:59] in this new world in which they're trying to function.

[00:23:04] And they're probably pretty intimidated.

[00:23:08] They're probably aware that they're awkward to a certain extent.

[00:23:14] They're probably aware and the more time you spend out of a cold, the more aware you become that you're weird.

[00:23:21] And it's hard and there's grief with that and there's embarrassment and there's shame.

[00:23:26] There are a lot of very big and painful feelings around the realization that your entire upbringing did nothing to prepare you for life in the real world.

[00:23:43] Yeah, I can see that.

[00:23:48] And again back to people think I'm normal now, which is cool.

[00:23:54] I stand by what I said kind of jokingly at the beginning. It's true.

[00:23:58] I have intentionally thrown myself headlong into scary environments that forced me to grow.

[00:24:05] I have a real bad habit with that.

[00:24:07] I can call it a bad habit.

[00:24:11] And going away to college, getting a master's degree, joining the military, all the jobs I've held,

[00:24:20] I learned more and more social skill and how to function in the real world from each of those environments.

[00:24:28] And some of it was very painful like you messed up.

[00:24:33] Like the stories I told in the military episode where there were phrases I had no idea what they meant and did not use them in the proper context

[00:24:43] and the proper location at the proper time. That was horrible.

[00:24:47] So there's that abrupt learning and then there's gentle learning from friends, from people who are going through the same thing from...

[00:24:54] I've done so much Googling. That's probably it more than anything.

[00:24:59] I just read a lot of articles and a lot of books, not even necessarily to find an answer for how to be normal,

[00:25:08] but I think when you grow up without access to a really great education and you want to know things,

[00:25:18] for me, I'm intensely curious.

[00:25:21] So I've just voraciously consumed information since I got access to the internet and got access to libraries and stuff.

[00:25:31] And Amazon was a real game changer and audible and podcasts.

[00:25:36] I just voraciously consumed that and probably learned a lot about how to assimilate that way just kind of through osmosis.

[00:25:46] Yeah, I didn't think about that being an option now because I've been poking around Reddit and stuff in the comments we get.

[00:25:55] And people aren't necessarily saying that they've got social anxiety or maybe not directly,

[00:26:04] but I can tell from the way they're writing and the way they're phrasing questions like they're very scared about.

[00:26:12] They don't know how to even take that step. How do they make friends? How do I be normal?

[00:26:19] That's usually the way that questions are phrased is like, how do I be normal?

[00:26:23] Well, that one's a little bit easier because even if you're weird and socially awkward,

[00:26:30] you can make friends just by being genuinely interested in other people.

[00:26:35] You can make friends by being a kind and considerate person.

[00:26:38] You can be super, super socially awkward, but be a really good listener.

[00:26:44] You're going to make friends. I promise it's all going to work out.

[00:26:47] So really play to your strengths.

[00:26:49] Like if you want to grow your social circle and have access to more experiences, relationships, friendships,

[00:27:03] just play to your strengths. Are you a good listener? Are you a really considerate person?

[00:27:08] Are you kind? Are you funny?

[00:27:11] I think people actually do have pretty big hearts and they're going to work with you with the awkward social stuff.

[00:27:20] And I say this so confidently because that was my experience.

[00:27:24] I'm a really kind person and I'm really loyal and invested in the people I love.

[00:27:29] And that's how I made friends in college and that's how I made friends.

[00:27:32] That's how I have made friends is just by caring about people.

[00:27:37] And especially at the beginning, I know my friends overlooked all my weirdness

[00:27:43] and what they valued about me was that I cared about them, that I was a good loyal friend.

[00:27:48] I was a trustworthy friend.

[00:27:51] Yeah. I would agree with that.

[00:27:53] Even in my line of work, I just run across so many very odd characters

[00:28:01] but they're usually insanely smart and they're super nice and they're just very weird.

[00:28:08] And it doesn't matter to your point.

[00:28:11] You completely just look past all the weirdness and you kind of just like, okay, that's just who they are.

[00:28:20] I think honestly that's how it started out for me in college making friends

[00:28:26] was I was really good at studying and getting ready for tests.

[00:28:31] So I would help people study and get ready for tests

[00:28:35] and then they would see like, oh, she really cares about me.

[00:28:39] So I used that aspect of academics in which I excelled to make connections

[00:28:47] and then if I was like, oh, I like this person. I want to get to know them better.

[00:28:51] I would make that investment in getting to know them and caring about them

[00:28:56] and letting them get to know me a bit.

[00:28:59] And yeah, I think the same thing.

[00:29:00] We would kind of overlook my weirdness because we connected studying and I was nice to them.

[00:29:07] And the other thing I'll say about IT folks,

[00:29:10] so in the military I had the opportunity to work with a bunch of really, really smart IT people

[00:29:15] and especially at one point in my career,

[00:29:18] it was really crucial to have good relationships with the nerds and I love the nerds.

[00:29:24] And these people like you said, they were wicked smart

[00:29:28] and maybe they were a little socially awkward or introverted,

[00:29:31] but they were so patient.

[00:29:34] They explained things to me.

[00:29:37] They like, we crawl around looking at network cables.

[00:29:41] Tell me if I'm saying all of this right?

[00:29:43] I understood it completely at the time, but this was a long time ago.

[00:29:46] And they, so anytime I had to go brief, you know, to senior leadership about whatever issue for my team,

[00:29:56] these folks would so patiently and diligently explain everything to me

[00:30:02] so that I could represent them well, so I could represent our team well,

[00:30:05] so we could get the support we needed for the projects we were working on.

[00:30:09] And so yeah, like if you think, gosh, I'm really introverted and awkward and stuff,

[00:30:15] like yeah, maybe that's true.

[00:30:17] Sure, that's okay.

[00:30:19] Like that is truly not the end of the world.

[00:30:21] If the worst thing someone can say to you is that you're a little weird and introverted,

[00:30:25] like that's really not bad.

[00:30:28] It's really not bad.

[00:30:29] And they're going to appreciate things about you, like your knowledge, your kindness,

[00:30:33] your patience, your ability to explain difficult concepts.

[00:30:38] I don't know.

[00:30:39] I think the more time I spend with people, the more I realize like we're all a bit weird.

[00:30:46] We really are.

[00:30:47] But everyone has their thing that makes them them and you just find people who like the thing that makes you you

[00:30:53] and you need to like the thing that makes them them too.

[00:30:58] Don't just, oh, I need a friend so this really toxic person is my friend.

[00:31:02] No, I did that in college.

[00:31:04] I did that and learned that the hard way.

[00:31:07] But yeah, yeah, find people who have qualities you respect and admire.

[00:31:13] We become like the five people with whom we spend the most time.

[00:31:16] So think about the people you're spending time with and make sure they're people you admire and respect.

[00:31:22] Try to always have friends who are smarter than you because they'll just they'll pull you up with them.

[00:31:28] So those are some things I learned about making friends and getting out there and assimilating into the real world.

[00:31:36] And honestly, I truly mean it when I say I learned a lot of it by trial and error and the hard way.

[00:31:43] And another thing I'll say if you're coming out of a really repressive environment,

[00:31:50] be careful who you make friends with initially because we're attracted to what we know.

[00:31:56] So my first round of friends in college, so not Ash and Mandy other people ended up being just like my biological family.

[00:32:04] Narcissistic, mean, cruel, manipulative, coercive.

[00:32:08] And I went through a lot of heartbreak and sorrow because I really cared about them and they were really mean to me.

[00:32:15] And I had to cut those people out of my life.

[00:32:18] And then I got a little bit better about it.

[00:32:21] And after college, my next round of friends were a little better, but still coercive, abusive, manipulative, narcissistic.

[00:32:30] And then I had to grow and it took a long time, but then I left that friend group.

[00:32:37] And that was really when I feel like I started making high quality connections with friends.

[00:32:44] So hopefully that'll if you're new to the real world, hopefully that saves you some heartache and sorrow because we just know that we are attracted to what we know and what is normal.

[00:32:55] And if you come from an abusive background, you're probably going to be attracted to abusive people just because that's what you're used to.

[00:33:05] You're used to being treated that way.

[00:33:07] So with that being said, do you think it helped or hurt you that you went to a Bible college?

[00:33:14] Oh, that's a great question.

[00:33:19] I don't know because I had been in the real world for a couple of years at that point because of jobs, because of the symphony course, but I still living in my biological parents' home.

[00:33:32] So everything was getting filtered through their opinions of my life.

[00:33:38] Everything I did was filtered through their opinions.

[00:33:41] So I don't know if I had gone to a state university.

[00:33:47] I don't know if I would have smacked my face on the ground a few times, fallen over.

[00:33:54] Because there were a lot of weird people at hyper-conservative Christian college.

[00:33:58] I was not an anomaly there.

[00:34:01] There were plenty of non-weird folks, but there were a lot of us who were real weird.

[00:34:08] So I don't know.

[00:34:11] I've mentioned before, I worked so much during college that I had a couple good friends, but I didn't get to spend tons and tons of time with them because they had a bunch of jobs.

[00:34:22] I had a bunch of jobs.

[00:34:24] We were all paying our way through school and trying to get good grades and survive and eat.

[00:34:32] So, yeah, I don't know. That's a good question.

[00:34:37] Yeah.

[00:34:38] We'll never know.

[00:34:39] Yeah, it's kind of hard to...

[00:34:41] I thought it was a good question, but at the same time, it's kind of hard to give an answer there because you can't experience that twice.

[00:34:47] It's not like you can rewind it, but like, all right.

[00:34:50] I'm going to go back four years and we're going to go to state university this time and see what happens.

[00:34:54] Well, and then when I went to grad school, there were how many years?

[00:35:01] There were a couple of years between graduating hyper-conservative college and going to non-religious grad school.

[00:35:10] And while I wasn't as weird anymore, I still was not well-liked, but it was for different reasons.

[00:35:22] It was more around academic performance at that point.

[00:35:28] I learned that people generally don't like people who throw off the norm.

[00:35:36] So...

[00:35:38] I mean, I was that person.

[00:35:41] I only talked about this in previous episodes.

[00:35:44] You wouldn't have liked me in school, Kyle.

[00:35:46] I wouldn't say that.

[00:35:48] Like, you know, I was a good student.

[00:35:53] I would put it that way. I was a good student.

[00:35:55] I wasn't the best student.

[00:35:56] I was never top of the class like that type of student, but I was normal.

[00:36:03] I would study, I would do my homework sort of, and I just tried to pass my classes.

[00:36:10] But whenever you get into the math class and they're like,

[00:36:13] all right, well, the math teacher, they always grade their tests on a curve.

[00:36:17] And then everybody gets a 63 on the test and then one person aces it and now the curve is 100%

[00:36:24] and everybody failed.

[00:36:26] Not to that person's fault, but it creates a little bit of animosity that like,

[00:36:31] okay, the other 98% of the students bombed this test and then the one super smart kid aced it

[00:36:39] and now you just ruined it for everybody and it just naturally creates a problem.

[00:36:45] Yeah.

[00:36:46] It's not like I said, it's not that kid's fault, but it's just that's how it happened.

[00:36:51] It's okay, everyone.

[00:36:52] We're all in the world. We're fine.

[00:36:55] So I guess to answer your question, I truly don't know because

[00:37:01] I was just in a different phase of life and there were some factors that played into the fact that I didn't really make friends in grad school.

[00:37:12] But we can revisit this in a year after I have finished my first year of doctoral studies.

[00:37:19] We'll see.

[00:37:20] I feel at that point like you are a very dedicated nerd if you're getting your PhD.

[00:37:25] You're probably a pretty dedicated nerd and you're not going to hate other nerds.

[00:37:28] So hopefully I will have friends, yeah, this time.

[00:37:32] Well, that's a good point and it leads me to another question.

[00:37:36] So usually when you get into those situations where you're all there for the same purpose, like you're all super nerdy about whatever it is,

[00:37:45] whether that's physics or business or computer programming or whatever, like usually whenever you nerd out that hard on something

[00:37:55] with other people that are nerding out that hard on something, like everything else doesn't matter.

[00:38:01] That's been my experience at least.

[00:38:03] Like you get into these super nerdy situations or anything that people are passionate about really.

[00:38:09] Like that shared love of something or interest in something kind of transcends everything else

[00:38:16] and you can kind of forgive or forget anything else about that person.

[00:38:21] Like, okay, they're a little weird, but they super love the same thing that I love.

[00:38:25] And so it doesn't matter.

[00:38:27] I think anytime it's not a competitive environment, I agree.

[00:38:32] Unfortunately, I think you put folks in a competitive environment.

[00:38:39] And I'm trying to think like with the IBLP Colt because well, yeah, headquarters was super competitive.

[00:38:47] It was very, very competitive.

[00:38:49] But I wasn't ever part of that.

[00:38:51] So I never really, well, I did.

[00:38:54] Oh, my nemesis.

[00:38:56] Her name is Evangeline.

[00:38:58] Oh, I have heard this one.

[00:39:00] Oh, I forgot about her.

[00:39:01] She was the only like, okay.

[00:39:03] And then there was someone named Anna Grace.

[00:39:05] Okay.

[00:39:06] So there were two girls about my age plus or minus a couple years.

[00:39:11] I think Anna Grace was a little older and Evangeline was a little younger.

[00:39:14] But their families worked at headquarters.

[00:39:16] So they saw my older sister, Andrea, way more than I did.

[00:39:21] They saw her all the time and I saw her on weekends usually.

[00:39:26] And she was, I think she was Evangeline's piano teacher.

[00:39:31] And then Andy liked Anna Grace because Andy played guitar and Anna Grace played like she could fiddle and she played violin.

[00:39:42] So they would jam all the time.

[00:39:45] And so she thought Andy was like the best, best, best.

[00:39:48] And her older sister was actually engaged to Andy for a while.

[00:39:53] And I was, it was kind of like what I've said in the past about my sister, Andy.

[00:40:00] If Andy was nice to someone, I was just mad at them because why was he nice to them?

[00:40:05] But he would rape me, you know?

[00:40:07] So, and the thing was Anna Grace and Evangeline lived in that super competitive environment.

[00:40:15] So they brought it to me, you know, if they were at our house because of cult stuff or if they were at our little cult church because of whatever, you know, their dad was preaching that Sunday, you know, special guests from headquarters.

[00:40:32] They would bring that competition to me.

[00:40:36] And, you know, Anna Grace would have stuff about Andy and Evangeline would have stuff about Andrea and Evangeline was always trying to be better at me than piano.

[00:40:45] And because we would be in the same recitals at headquarters because Andrea was our piano teacher.

[00:40:52] And then Evangeline would, oh, I think then she would talk about like how many kids she was going to have when she grew up and got married.

[00:41:01] And I don't know, I never wanted a bunch of kids because growing up with that many people, you know, it's utter chaos.

[00:41:11] So I think the number I would throw out in cult circles, because, you know, that's what little girls talked about.

[00:41:17] I think the number I would throw out was four, which was like absolutely satanic. Absolutely unholy.

[00:41:25] And so I think, you know, Evangeline heard me say that she was like, oh, well I won blah blah blah.

[00:41:30] It was probably like 12 kids or as many as God will give me or, you know, whatever the right cult answer was.

[00:41:36] So she would make a lot of snide comments to me too.

[00:41:40] And so that was the only time I really experienced the competitive side of the cult.

[00:41:48] Yeah, forgot about all that.

[00:41:51] Yeah, I feel like growing up, I tolerated Anna Grace.

[00:41:58] But I really didn't like Evangeline.

[00:42:00] Well, most people don't like people or Cheta one up everybody. They exist outside of the cult.

[00:42:06] And it's always just kind of like, just go away.

[00:42:09] Like, just go away.

[00:42:11] So I know we've already done an episode on this sort of, but I had a question around as far as the social part of coming out of a cult.

[00:42:23] Do you think it would be helpful or hurtful to go straight into the military?

[00:42:28] Okay, I need context. Does this person know that they were in a cult?

[00:42:32] Oh, I guess there's a lot of variables there.

[00:42:35] Has this person gone to college?

[00:42:38] Nope, just 18 straight out of the cult.

[00:42:40] Oh, they're going to have a hard time. They're going to suffer.

[00:42:44] You don't think it would be good?

[00:42:46] Well, okay.

[00:42:50] The thing you need to understand about the military and the thing you need to understand about 18 year olds in the military is they're kind of brutal.

[00:43:01] And the feedback you get in a training environment in the military is different than the feedback you'd get maybe doing your daily job.

[00:43:12] Like, everyone's just savage in training. Everyone's savage and for the most part.

[00:43:19] At least when I went through and when I knew people who were going through BMT, which is again the enlisted version,

[00:43:27] which is what an 18 year old without a college degree would be going through.

[00:43:30] So yeah, they're going to make fun of you. They're going to probably call your names and it's probably not going to be a real fun experience.

[00:43:39] To cutthroat?

[00:43:40] I mean, not that a cult kid couldn't figure it out and get through it.

[00:43:44] But I don't know if it would be like this is my number one recommendation for your life.

[00:43:49] I think at this point people will not be shocked when I say I would really recommend some therapy first

[00:43:56] and some getting yourself established and some figuring out who you are and what you want out of life.

[00:44:04] And then yeah, maybe the military's a great option.

[00:44:06] So I mean, that's a good point. Like, I know you were in therapy from early college age, right?

[00:44:15] Like 19, 20.

[00:44:17] Do you think like how much do you think that helped with your assimilating into normal like culture?

[00:44:25] I think it helped a lot actually. Here's why.

[00:44:30] The first therapy I was in and we've talked about this was group therapy.

[00:44:35] So I got to listen to a lot of other young women's stories and I got to kind of quietly in my own little corner of that room piece together.

[00:44:46] Okay, that was not like my life. Okay, that was not like my life.

[00:44:50] Okay, I don't know what they're talking about.

[00:44:52] Okay, I have no idea what that is. Oh wow, what's that?

[00:44:55] So I got to privately start processing that there was a lot I didn't know even around people with whom I had like this intense similarity because we'd all experienced sexual violence.

[00:45:06] And you know, that's when Google is really helpful and the library is really helpful and Amazon is really helpful because you can go research and figure it out.

[00:45:13] But then I went into eventually when I got to the good therapist, the one who treated my PTSD,

[00:45:22] he was kind but he would direct and he would just tell me like, let's talk about that.

[00:45:30] I noticed you said blah, let's really dissect blah because I think you might not have a good understanding of what that is.

[00:45:40] So he was very kind. He was very compassionate.

[00:45:46] I mean, he was a PhD psychologist. He knew how to be trauma informed.

[00:45:50] But he also recognized that I could handle constructive feedback and then I wanted constructive feedback and he would give me constructive feedback in a very safe, secure environment that was private.

[00:46:04] You know, it was just us doing therapeutic work in that room. So, you know, none of my peers were sitting in there watching me stumble through assimilating to a normal environment.

[00:46:17] So what was the question? How much therapy? Lots of therapy. Always lots of therapy. There's always lots of therapy with a good therapist.

[00:46:25] Question was, do you think therapy helped you assimilate into culture?

[00:46:30] The combination of being able to privately realize like, huh, there's a lot I don't know here.

[00:46:36] And then yeah, the kind compassionate trauma informed feedback of, well, and you know, my therapist does that to this day.

[00:46:44] I love her. She'll be like, well, let's reframe that.

[00:46:48] And it's different stuff. It's not like, it's not like I can't figure out how to function in the world.

[00:46:54] It's more like how I interpret how I'm functioning in the world.

[00:46:59] And so yeah, I'm still working on stuff. I'm still reframing and I think one of the things that has shifted for me is instead of like, oh my God, it's this thing I have to hide.

[00:47:10] I'm a lot more comfortable owning it. I'm a lot more comfortable saying things like, gee, I don't know.

[00:47:15] Or yeah, never heard of that. No clue who that is. No idea.

[00:47:20] Or admitting when I am experiencing social anxiety instead of just trying to like grip my teeth and get through it somehow.

[00:47:28] And I still do that. I'll still plan. I mean, I did this in therapy a couple weeks ago.

[00:47:33] I was going to a social event and I didn't have Kyle as my social buffer.

[00:47:39] And so I told my therapist I was nervous about it. So we thought about like, well, how do you normally get through those environments?

[00:47:46] I hate crowds. Like, I will speak to huge crowds.

[00:47:52] But what I hate is when there's more than like three people and me in a social situation because that's a lot of people.

[00:48:03] And so I'll just brainstorm preemptively. I'm like, okay, I'll find another introvert and then become temporarily best friends.

[00:48:11] And then we'll just talk to each other for the whole event and everything will be fine.

[00:48:15] And you know, so that's how that's generally how I get through social events where, you know, there are more than four total people,

[00:48:23] but less than, you know, hundreds of people I'm speaking to.

[00:48:28] Yeah, I just find other nerds and then we talk about nerd stuff.

[00:48:32] And then, you know, then the event ends and I get to go home, which is brilliant.

[00:48:38] But yeah, so no, I'm just, I think I've gotten a lot more comfortable just owning it.

[00:48:43] And yeah, for instance, oh, I'm doing a professional speaking engagement by the time this release is all already have done it.

[00:48:53] But for the first time ever in a professional public speaking engagement, I'm going to reference growing up in a cult.

[00:49:02] Very proud of myself.

[00:49:03] I noticed that when you're rehearsing.

[00:49:08] It's just a passing comment, but that's like that's enough. See, so it's still happening.

[00:49:13] I'm still growing.

[00:49:14] I'm still becoming more comfortable being the person who grew up in a cult.

[00:49:21] But yeah, it's I guess it's if you grew up in a repressive environment and you're like, oh my god, I'm so we're just give yourself give yourself a break.

[00:49:28] It's it's okay.

[00:49:31] And you're going to be fine and people are going to love you and just just be yourself even if who you are is weird.

[00:49:39] Just own it.

[00:49:40] Be you and play to your strengths.

[00:49:43] Be kind, be funny, be smart, be patient, be helpful, whatever it is, just just be you.

[00:49:49] People are going to love you.

[00:49:50] You're going to find your people and you know, if all else fails, just insist that you're hilarious and you know, I do that with Kyle all the time.

[00:50:00] Like no, really, I'm hilarious.

[00:50:02] I'm very funny.

[00:50:03] Right?

[00:50:04] Right?

[00:50:05] Mm hmm.

[00:50:06] Did it work?

[00:50:07] Yes, you are funny.

[00:50:09] You're actually much better at socializing than I am.

[00:50:12] Well, you think it till you become it.

[00:50:14] I'm still becoming it.

[00:50:16] I'm not there.

[00:50:17] I don't.

[00:50:18] But you think it would disagree.

[00:50:19] I feel like I've seen you do it enough that it can't be faking it.

[00:50:24] I think you've learned.

[00:50:25] Well, so that's where I played on my strength.

[00:50:27] Like I genuinely care about people.

[00:50:29] So if I stopped focusing on, oh my God, I'm so socially awkward and I just try to really pay attention to the people around me and what they're saying and be interested in and care about learning about them and getting to know them.

[00:50:43] Then that's that's genuinely me.

[00:50:45] Like I'm showing up as who I am and yeah, I can apparently use the wrong, very inappropriate phrase at work because you'll notice in the story from the military episode.

[00:50:58] No one ever got mad at me about it.

[00:51:00] No one ever called me out on it because I think they knew like even if they thought it was weird, they probably assumed like, oh, she doesn't know what she's saying because she's like this really appropriate person the rest of the time.

[00:51:10] She's really kind.

[00:51:11] Like no one ever got mad at me about it and or reprimanded me for it or did anything that harmed me in any way.

[00:51:19] So yeah, just be you be kind to people and the rest of it just works itself out and you might still have panic attacks after social, you know, situations but it's okay.

[00:51:30] Those get fewer and further between.

[00:51:35] Well, I can't think of a better way to wrap it up than how you just did giving people some friendly advice as someone who grew up on a cult and how to hate saying the word.

[00:51:46] People who didn't grow up in a cult who don't need this advice.

[00:51:49] It's still interesting to see because like I said, I like I didn't grow up on a cult and I still ended up interacting with multiple people, not just you like multiple people in my career.

[00:52:03] That came from oppressive or repressive backgrounds and you just kind of run into those people just throughout life and so be nice.

[00:52:12] You don't know what they battled through to reach adulthood and that's why again a best practice is just be authentic, be kind.

[00:52:22] If you're the person who grew up in a normal way and you're encountering people like me who did not or if you're like me and you grew up in a weird environment,

[00:52:32] you're trying to assimilate to the rest of the world.

[00:52:34] Again, just be you be kind and I promise it all works out.

[00:52:38] So with all that being said, we have got a ton of messages and comments like I said earlier from people and we're we try to read them all.

[00:52:50] I would say we're still succeeding in reading them all.

[00:52:53] Yes, but if we don't respond to everybody know that we probably at least read it.

[00:52:59] And that we value and we feel so honored that you reached out and that you shared your story or you shared how something we talked about in a podcast resonated with you.

[00:53:13] We in no way want to discourage you from reaching out and we are we're trying to come up with a plan for how we can respond to folks because here's the thing about me.

[00:53:22] If you send me a message saying, Hey, Amanda, here's how your story resonated with me and you share your story with me.

[00:53:29] I want to give you a complete and thoughtful response that honors the disclosure you made, which with the amount of messages we're getting.

[00:53:39] I'm starting to struggle to to be able to keep up with it and give you the response.

[00:53:44] I feel like you deserve.

[00:53:46] I don't want to just like heart it and say, thanks for sharing when you've sent me like a, you know, paragraphs of when you've sent me paragraphs of your story and you've been vulnerable and shared trauma from your past with me.

[00:53:59] So please know that that we read it and and that we're so honored that you reached out.

[00:54:05] I'm reading these these things that you're sending and we are trying to figure out a way forward as the podcast is growing exponentially right now to sort of to find a rhythm with how to get back to people and how to create and cultivate this safe community.

[00:54:23] We want you all to have as folks who listen to our podcast.

[00:54:27] We're trying to brainstorm some ideas of how to create a community that maybe gives people the option to share their story with with other people that are have experienced similar things or in similar situations and kind of create, you know, create a place for everybody to share.

[00:54:44] It's not entirely dependent on a man responding to messages.

[00:54:49] But yeah, from the messages we have seen there's plenty of other people out there that have have been through these things and I'm sure they are also very safe places to to confide in or even just share or get that off your chest.

[00:55:06] I know that there will be people who affirm you.

[00:55:09] So we're trying to think of ways we can we can cultivate that safe community.

[00:55:13] Another thing we're kicking around is, you know, maybe I cannot respond to every single message moving forward.

[00:55:18] Maybe we'll have a newsletter that goes out once once a month or something that addresses the themes that I'm seeing in messages and maybe anonymously generically answer some questions.

[00:55:31] We don't know yet, but we we want to emphasize that we do feel so honored that so many of you are reaching out that so many of you are sharing and we're trying to find a good, sustained sustainable meaningful way to stay connected with folks who listen.

[00:55:50] So if you have thoughts on that, if if you're like, yeah, I would totally read something once a month, please comment.

[00:55:57] If you're on Spotify, you can leave a comment on the episode.

[00:56:01] You can go to our website, coltylefbehind.com and send us a message that way.

[00:56:06] You can DM us.

[00:56:07] You can comment it on any of our social media posts.

[00:56:11] Let us know what would what you would like.

[00:56:14] What would be helpful and we'll kind of wait.

[00:56:18] We'll give this a little bit of time before we make any decisions so that we can hear back from you and see what would be most meaningful.

[00:56:25] And in the meantime, thank you so much to everyone who's sharing his leaving reviews.

[00:56:30] All your comments.

[00:56:32] It means a lot and it definitely helps get the word out.

[00:56:36] And again, we're on a mission to let everyone know Bill Gothard sucks don't believe his ideology.

[00:56:41] So the more the more you comment, the more you interact with our content, the more of you who are able to leave reviews that really does help spread the word.

[00:56:50] It does help get the podcast in front of new audiences.

[00:56:54] So with all that being said, we'll get something figured out and look forward to that coming in the future.

[00:57:01] And we'll be back next Monday.