31 - The Military and the Cult

[00:00:00] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult with you might know from the dugger family.

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before, so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together.

[00:00:25] All right, welcome back to the next episode. This week we are going to pull the thread from something we were talking about last week which was Amanda being so highly prepared for her military career.

[00:00:47] I just thought it was super interesting, like the similarities there and we, and we didn't talk about this in between episodes. We're just going cold turkey into this.

[00:00:57] But what part of growing up in the cult do you feel like prepared you the most or what are some things that... A pression, Kyle. How so? Scraping yelling. Well, like do we just start at the very beginning?

[00:01:15] Sure. So maps the military entrance processing. It's very strict and regulated and... That's a like medical thing, right? But they're also testing other stuff you have to do in academic examination and they like check to make sure you can read them other stuff.

[00:01:38] And like a physical fitness test, right? No physical fitness but you have to... Well at the time I don't know what the current standards are but you had to meet certain physical criteria.

[00:01:49] And it was just very regimented and people got kicked out of there all the time for the dumbest stuff because they just didn't read the instructions properly But diligence, Kyle is a character quality. So an attentiveness. So I never had any problems with that.

[00:02:06] But I realized my very first day of officer training that I was going to be just fine. Okay, so we arrived and oh there was actually a hurricane.

[00:02:23] So they allowed us anyone who was going to like travel through the path of the hurricane to get to officer training school. We could get there as many days early as we needed to to be safe.

[00:02:34] So I was going to drive right through the path of the hurricane so I got there several days early. Being me, you know, you find some of the cadre and start getting the scoop on like what to expect and you know, I'd done it.

[00:02:48] I read a lot in my ex has been had been through T.S. When I say O.T.S. that's officer training school for all of our civilians. And so I had a pretty good idea what to expect but knowledge is power, Kyle. So he always more knowledge.

[00:03:04] So let's see the day the day it all started. So a couple days go by hurricane stuff everyone gets there and it's like go time.

[00:03:14] So generally what would happen is if there hadn't been a hurricane we all would have arrived and they would have like improsst us all improsst us all at the same time. But they kind of knew some of us already because we were already there.

[00:03:27] So we'd been staying in the dorms those of us who arrived early and they, the staff, the cadre when I say cadre that's the folks who lead officer training school and their instructors.

[00:03:40] They come around and told us like, all right be out in the quad for improsst us seeing it whatever time. And don't come any earlier than that.

[00:03:48] We're like okay. So I'm in the dorm there's another cadet with me and we just hear the screaming start and I'm like, oh this feels like home.

[00:04:01] So we walk out there at the time and I see a member of the cadre you know with the bucket hat like making a B line for me and this other cadet.

[00:04:10] And she was scared and she like kind of hid behind me and I was like, this is very normal. I used to being charged at in yelled at so I don't know like it didn't even occur to me that it like was anything other than normal.

[00:04:23] Which is weird now that I think about it. So this drill instructor comes up and he's like screaming and spit's like, why are you out here earlier? Why did you blah blah blah?

[00:04:34] Well you know you have to make your reasonable appeal Kyle like I'm all about this so I just did there quietly let him scream at me.

[00:04:43] Like got spit all over my face and I was like cool I'm in like that's like that's that's when it's official you know when there's no on your face.

[00:04:53] So I waited for him to stop yelling and then I was like well so and so told us not to come out to this time and he was like, oh okay well go over there stand up straight or whatever like you had to yell at us for something because you're always wrong until

[00:05:09] You need to start being right at whatever phase in training so we get in line and they're just up and down tire shoelaces why are you standing straight or woman and just like anything they can find to pick on you they're screaming it you and they're like up in your face like I don't know yelling it but like

[00:05:28] I remember standing in that line on the first day and going to myself they're not allowed to hit me. No one here's allowed to hit me this is gonna be great.

[00:05:37] So big difference like no one here's allowed to hit me and no one here's allowed to rate me so I think I'm gonna be okay.

[00:05:46] And then they did like it was a long day of waiting around in lines but luckily I had a lot of practice from Knoxville when we would have to wait forever for the bus.

[00:05:57] Line to take us to the other part of campus where the kids part was so I don't know standing around in the heat being bored and miserable was like pretty normal.

[00:06:09] And then they then they had to teach us how to march and I will say that was that was probably one of the hardest things for me. I am not coordinated and in the coal like we weren't totally marching we would put our hands on the shoulders of the person in front of us, but you know we weren't marching to a cadence.

[00:06:26] So they start teaching you that day one and it was just okay I was happy I was so happy.

[00:06:35] Like every minute of the whole thing I was so happy even when it was terrible and you know there were certain things that we had to do that were difficult.

[00:06:46] Well more so for me from like a coordination perspective like flanking movements I had to practice really hard I turned it all into math problems in my head and practice in my dorm room.

[00:06:58] And that's like how I figured out all of the movements for that which is another story for another time but there were there were some funny moments.

[00:07:07] But I think I drove the rest of my flight kind of nuts because I was just like chipper and happy the whole time and they were all over it and so I could have it and a lot of them were prior and listed so they'd already been through BMT, the basic military training which is what the enlisted folks go through.

[00:07:25] And I think they were all just over it and I was like this is the best like yeah they're yelling at me, but also no one's hitting me and I actually I did very well.

[00:07:37] I got one piece of paper work so to give you these little slips I think they're called 431s where they write up everything you mess up. And I don't really know what happens if you get a lot of them because I got one.

[00:07:52] I failed to come to the position of attention when addressing a superior officer one time which you don't do in like the real military like after you leave.

[00:08:04] Officer training school you can like walk up to people and speak words to them in a normal way but when you're a cadet in training you have to come to the position of attention anytime you talk to any other cadre or anyone.

[00:08:18] Like if it moves you're at attention. So I was standing there with my flight. The flight leader that week and what under the cadre came up and I forgot to come to the position of attention.

[00:08:30] I remained at parade rest like I got one for that and then I got one to merit on one room inspection because there was a piece of hair on the like suit jacket for my dress blues.

[00:08:44] And I was so I kept that I still have that piece of paper because that was like the only thing they could find. And because you know they wanted it clean what have I been doing since you know I could walk cleaning so that was easy.

[00:09:02] Cleaning blind slats and. And the shower and like white glove inspection has to be perfect so it was perfect. But so just for context for a video because you have you know I know this stuff but like so this was Air Force OTS.

[00:09:25] You weren't prior and listed with the straight as an officer. Did you notice that the other people weren't of or they were afraid or like my roommate was straight out of college who's 22 she cried on the floor most nights.

[00:09:41] And I was just like living my best life so I really tried to like help her and support her and like take care of her when she was overwhelmed.

[00:09:53] I would clean her side of our dorm room and like pick up after her and we eat they have the dumbest roles because they're just trying to see how.

[00:10:03] How much like dedication and persistence and attention to detail you have so we would have to dry out our sinks in the morning before we left our room like there could not be a drop of water in the shower or in our sinks.

[00:10:17] So yeah I would like make sure her sink was dry and she'd be like it's fine just leave it and I'd be like not obeying the rules. But I'm always a great when it was inspected. Well it's because you were cleaning her sink.

[00:10:33] Well yeah so no I think there were some people who were very overwhelmed like there were people who would cry.

[00:10:41] And now I mean I felt I felt a little swindled because no one ever got in my face and screamed at me other than that one day the first day.

[00:10:51] I was expecting it to be way worse but also I like they said don't move look straight ahead you're at the position of attention don't move your eyes.

[00:10:59] So like I just wouldn't move my eyes and I stand still at the position of attention and there are people like looking all over the place and it's like they said stand still and look straight ahead like how hard is this apparently that's like it's very hard for some people to follow strict orders.

[00:11:15] But to me it was like a Tuesday and I felt like I felt so at home I was like at peace. Um, my nervous system felt so regulated. That's really scary.

[00:11:29] But that being screamed at and being an environment where you know people were screaming at each other was like so normalized to me at that time in my life granted this was a while ago.

[00:11:39] I don't think being an environment with people yelling would regulate my nervous system now but back then it sure did. I would have a problem with like not looking around like the rest of like stand there looks straight ahead like that would be okay.

[00:11:57] Well when someone's like doing something you know a couple people down and they're going to getting in trouble or yelled at like I would have hard time just kind of like not look at it. You just don't you just don't I mean put us like a car crash.

[00:12:13] But you just don't have to look no Kyle follow the rules. No you'll be the rules and you look straight ahead see you would have gotten so many pieces of paperwork.

[00:12:23] So did you think you just didn't get yelled at because you were just like always following the rules? Yeah I mean they I think they loved me.

[00:12:31] Um like there was one time I probably should have gotten paperwork because it was another time I forgot to come to the position of attention when addressing a superior officer.

[00:12:40] I think I remained at parade rest and it was it was our squadron commander and he just looked at me and he was like. Could that reverse you know better. That was like yes sir. Um so like I think that they all knew I had my shit together.

[00:12:57] I was doing everything I was told to do okay here's the other thing they had cameras all over the dorms not in our rooms but in all the hallways and because I struggled to figure out.

[00:13:07] All of the movements from marching when we were released back to our dorms I marched everywhere by myself just practicing and I would go around corners again and again and again until I got the facing movements right.

[00:13:20] So I think that they not only saw me busting my ass all day every day in front of them they saw me go back to the dorms and bust my ass there to like try to improve and fix what I wasn't good at and get really I got so good at it though I was like I called cadence really fucking well.

[00:13:36] And that week when I was a flight leader so we all like cycled through being flight leaders I was rated the top flight leader of the entire student body of hundreds of people.

[00:13:49] Um and I did DG that training as well distinguished graduate they picked the top 10% so they're only hand full of us. So did you was anybody else doing that like were they putting in the extra effort like after after the drills were over or whatever.

[00:14:08] I'm sure some people were I don't know I was seen anybody else out in the hallway with you I guess is what I was in the hallway. No. No, I think the staff liked me like I was respectful.

[00:14:20] I followed the rules I did my jobs well I performed well on the written exams and I performed well on all of the practical like leadership exams.

[00:14:31] Oh and then they did this to us before we even got there they sent us this pre requisite course and they said you know study everything there's going to be a cumulative exam when you get to OTS.

[00:14:45] What they didn't tell us was you know what would happen if you didn't pass like would you get kicked out this is an unknown Kyle so obviously we studied for it like we'd get kicked out or at least I did.

[00:14:56] Um and I made I think it was over 500 flashcards I still have them and I memorized all of them and it wasn't like a simple little like one word answer on the back it was usually like paragraphs and huge chunks of the constitution and stuff.

[00:15:10] Um so I just memorized all of it and of the entire student body I think I was one of 12 people who passed it.

[00:15:17] Oh and I think almost everyone else who passed it was a priori or enlisted member and yeah I passed I passed that I think and that was early on that was like week one or two so I think that that went a long way toward making the staff realize or the instructors realize like she's fucking serious about this.

[00:15:39] Um but yeah I was a little pissed off when we take this whole cumulative exam and then they're like oh it's not going to impact the outcome at all.

[00:15:50] It's not going to impact your outcome at all we're we're testing out new curriculum and you guys were a guinea pigs we just wanted to see how you do.

[00:16:00] So you know have to be perfect. It's another way the cult helped me with the military like well they gave me a test and I didn't know if passing or non passing scores meant I got to stay or I was getting kicked out and going home so just study because you gotta get an A.

[00:16:23] So was there was there anything that happened in the cult or you know in your childhood that hurt you going through military school or like OTS or in your military career. Oh and my military career yes um um okay this is actually an assignment from my therapist.

[00:16:44] I'm one of the people who if I accidentally say something weird I will be up in the middle of the night 20 years later thinking about it.

[00:16:54] So there was a thing that happened we'll get to that I think the primary way the cult harmed me in the military context is there was a lot I didn't know a lot of in you endo a lot of.

[00:17:12] Like slaying yeah I was just naive I think and so I get to my first duty station and the like kind of take one look at me and put me in a very high vis-a-vis ability job.

[00:17:26] Because when you de-g in training like congratulations now you have to perform at that level for the rest of your career.

[00:17:36] So they saw that on my record at my first duty station and I got put in a high vis ability job while I waited for pilot training to begin and I was working in an office for a wing commander which is high up there in the Air Force structure.

[00:17:55] He was a full bird colonel who got his first star so one star general toward the end of his tour there and he was an asshole.

[00:18:05] He was the oh my gosh, so I was I was like a junior executive officer so executive officers are kind of like administrative systems but like on steroids and military and you know all that stuff.

[00:18:22] So this guy had two execs and then there were a handful of us junior execs who like cycled through and the primary exec was major and then his counterpart was a captain so the major was the highest ranking person in our little hub of execs.

[00:18:41] And he would go into the office into the colonel slash one star general's office and I guy the colonel would like loses ever loving mind.

[00:18:51] And the poor major would just have to stand there and take it you know and like be professional and be calm and not get defensive but he would come out of those meetings looking like he was getting out of a boxing ring.

[00:19:04] Like not like he'd actually been beat up like his demeanor hit like he looked so fucking defeated every time he came out of that office. So he had this phrase I'm gonna die talking about this okay. He had this phrase that he would say. This is the major.

[00:19:24] Yeah when he came out of those horrible meetings. Oh man, I just took a bunch of face shots. Being me being very appropriate. Being someone who you know was not raised around normal people and their terminology.

[00:19:44] I took that very literally and I thought he meant it was like getting punched in the face. So I started using that phrase after bad meeting. I mean you could definitely take it that way. Okay, but it's coming from a few people.

[00:20:05] Okay, so like I am the super appropriate person at work. People in the military were like they would apologize if they custom front of me level appropriate at work. I was always very professional and I did relax over time and I would drop some.

[00:20:25] I would drop some appropriately timed F bombs in uniform. But especially for the first couple years like people didn't even know I cussed which is really funny if any of you listen to this ha ha see I cuss.

[00:20:37] So one day I was talking to one of my mentors someone I really respect. Someone else in the military. Yes.

[00:20:47] I was like I was trying to be a lieutenant colonel that I then sort of worked for I forget where I was in the whole like I worked a lot of places on that base.

[00:20:57] And he asked me I think he asked me about a meeting or something or how something had gone or I don't know and I. I used the phrase face shots and he didn't say anything but he kind of like tilted his head like.

[00:21:14] And I didn't know what that was about until like years later years later. Somehow I forget how I find out what face shot really means to the rest of the world. And I've just been dying in a pit of hell that I created for myself ever since.

[00:21:36] I can imagine you. Yeah, keep you up every night. I didn't know what also. There's the nine hundred times I said that. Oh right. Yeah. I mean that's.

[00:21:50] But my co says that like if you knew what it meant the major why was he saying that in the office because people suck but also. She shouldn't have been saying that. But also I had no idea what it really meant.

[00:22:05] So um yeah, yeah, I was talking with my therapist about things that keep me up at night. She almost fell out of her chair laughing. And I was like I guess it is kind of funny. Now along long time later.

[00:22:25] But I would say like yeah being a little naive or a lot naive because I just had a whole swath of like. I don't know secular knowledge missing. Yeah, I remember. I mean like growing as somebody who attended public schools.

[00:22:49] Some of you attended public schools like those types of in you windows and jokes and inside jokes and all that kind of stuff is like.

[00:22:58] You're exposed to that a lot whether you want to be or not like you hear it and like you pick up bad habits and phrases and you know parents always like where did you learn that? It's like you learn that public school so I can imagine.

[00:23:12] Yeah, you missed that phrase or phase of life.

[00:23:22] And I know there's more story more of those stories but if we go back to so OTS was there anything else that was like happening there or that you kind of realize while in OTS with all these other people like hey I'm different.

[00:23:40] In this way or like my give a damn never ran out. I don't know if where that came from but I think that was what set me apart from everyone like I had an endless supply of give a damn so I could hang in there you know.

[00:23:59] Training is grueling mostly from a lack of sleep. And yeah like one time we were I think there was one day we marched for 11 hours and that was in like 90 degrees a million percent humidity Alabama.

[00:24:14] So there were days that were very physically taxing that way but a lot of it's just having the mental endurance to keep pushing with the best you've got for an extended period of time.

[00:24:29] And OTS was two months but then like my my tech school you know those would be like four month pushes and again like I graduated at the top of my class. I was the only distinguished graduate for that and I think it's just because.

[00:24:51] Yeah I had kind of an endless supply of give a damn that I made from thin air because I was as tired as everyone else. I don't know if that had to do with the cold or if I was just so.

[00:25:06] Fucking excited to be there and like I worked so hard and waited so long to get that career opportunity. Like I just woke up so happy every morning no matter how tired it was.

[00:25:20] I would say that early mornings the cold gets you accustomed to those because even like.

[00:25:28] Knoxville and stuff from a young age we were up and at it and in line for the buses and stuff while it was still dark outside sometimes so that the incredibly formulaic lifestyle was familiar to me.

[00:25:44] Well you were probably used to like that very strict like regimented sketch. Yes, yeah because anytime you so at home is one thing but also anytime you went to a cult event it was incredibly regimented.

[00:25:59] And there were times you have you had to be places and if you missed the bus like you couldn't rejoin them later you were stuck for the rest of the day with your parents on the blanket and doing blanket training you know and we've talked about that in other episodes but.

[00:26:13] Yeah it was just it was. Very natural so you you have through basic training. Uh-huh. And you had off the tech school so now I imagine and I haven't been in the military so I don't know like I imagine the. The days change the yelling changes the.

[00:26:38] Yeah, they don't yell. Everything probably changed at that point. How did that. Was that good or bad for you like it sounded like you were very comfortable. At basic training and you were comfortable with kind of what was happening there. Yeah.

[00:26:56] Did it change at all when you went to tech school? Well I had a weird tech school experience in that I was supposed to be. I got. I actually went to a board. A selection board as remotely pilot remotely piloted aircraft only.

[00:27:21] That was a mission I was very interested in. People call it drones everyone in the military is like no drones. Those are what we shoot down for target practice like these are massive. Aircrafts and they have a very interesting mission that I was.

[00:27:40] Pretty invested in for a lot of reasons. And so I was in that training pipeline when I got diagnosed with. Some really serious medical issues that were they blindsided me. So I stayed on what they call casual status where you're given a job while you wait for training.

[00:28:04] So they kind of just put you wherever your skill set works and they need you.

[00:28:08] So I was a junior exec and then I went over and I did kind of like consulting work for an aspect of the Air Force that really focuses on culture and doctrine and you know they do like culture assessments and stuff.

[00:28:24] I helped with that and then I helped with a national defense summit a couple times. And so I was still working but I was like on pause from training while they figured out my medical condition and I ended up having two surgeries during that time.

[00:28:46] And then after that we decided like me my doctor and my military leadership decided that the medical standards, the physical standards on a medical on the medical side for being a pilot were just two stringent for what my body could do given my diagnosis.

[00:29:12] So I crossed trained into a different specialty and that that tech school was really fun. I loved it. It was heavily academic, very nerdy. And then after I finished up there I had to do several more courses back at my duty station.

[00:29:39] And I mean it was very different. I you know we had to form up sometimes and we had to do unit PT and you know stuff like that but it wasn't anywhere near is insane as OTS with you know screaming and yelling like the whole point.

[00:29:58] And this is this is very interesting as I think back on it from like I grew up in a cult perspective they kind of try to make you feel like a prisoner of war.

[00:30:07] In office or training school like your life gets stripped down to almost nothing, you know you don't have access to electronic devices you can't call your family or friends.

[00:30:19] At least for a while there eventually as an officer, at least when I went through you could earn those privileges.

[00:30:25] But it's it's a very stripped down way of living with your constantly controlled or constantly oppressed you know they're running by it five in the morning banging on your doors kicking in like you can see when you walk into the dorms.

[00:30:41] You see the scuff marks along the bottom of every single door from them like banging on it with their boots and hammering on like they're trying to scare you they're trying to get your heart rate up.

[00:30:52] They're trying to get your adrenaline pumping they're trying to show you that you can do hard things ultimately is like kind of the educational goal of it, but also they're trying to recreate the fog of war.

[00:31:07] So all of the yelling and screaming and like all this stuff is it's too in a way simulate warfare.

[00:31:14] And make you think and react and make good decisions under pressure with a lot of noise and people yelling at you and the stakes are really high and like you're going to get kicked out if you don't, you know, pass every element of not just the academic tests but the field tests like the practical part.

[00:31:35] And I guess something I realized is like the fog of war and growing up in a really oppressive environment have a similar impact on the brain. And your cognitive abilities and find motor skills when you know your hearts racing and your adrenaline's pumping and stuff like that.

[00:32:04] I mean, when we did weapons they made a shoot all day in like the blazing heat and then when we were shaking. We did our actual test where we had to use firearms appropriately.

[00:32:21] The same thing like with combative they so we learned kind of like a jujitsu krav mega cross breed. And same deal like out there fighting all day.

[00:32:38] They divided us by weight class and height I'm super tall so it was like me and one other women with a bunch of dudes because we were all the same height.

[00:32:48] So you spend like a whole week wrestling and fighting and then you have to you know your shake in your tired. Demonstrate the skill and I found I just went into a zone of like okay, I know how to cope with chaos.

[00:33:03] I know how to cope with feeling overwhelmed. I know how to cope with feeling scared. I know how to cope with everything around me being on fire.

[00:33:16] I did it register that way like did you actually have to put some effort into like being okay with the situation you were in or wasn't just like it was it was so.

[00:33:29] Oh my gosh, it was like putting on a glove that fit perfectly which is sad you know but like I don't have.

[00:33:38] And have like blocked out memories of that time like I remember it with incredible clarity because the whole time well first of all I was just so how to be there but secondly I was like I know this I can do this.

[00:33:50] I can be really good at this I know this. I had already from a young age learned how to focus through pain learned how to focus through being yelled at scream that and I don't know like almost every day.

[00:34:07] In training the thought would occur to me how great is it that no one here is hitting me like this is so cool no one here is hitting me.

[00:34:16] Yeah so as far as like your happiness to be there was that related to your childhood at all or was that like just pure like I want to be in the military to happiness.

[00:34:27] It was pure I want to be in the military happiness. I mean there was a lot going on during that time I talked about this in the episode four years in court how everything with my brothers case went down during the two months I was in OTS.

[00:34:44] But even with all of that I mean I've never had two months in a row where every day I woke up and I knew I was exactly where I was supposed to be doing exactly what I was supposed to be doing and loving every fucking minute of it even if it wasn't it was awful and I mean there I had this this phrase I would say to myself.

[00:35:12] And it's it's helped me so many times in my life and I'll tell you the phrase and as I can't hear but like there were going back to I lack coordination skills there were so many things we had to do that were very public like how we handed off flags and like all this stuff.

[00:35:29] That was very precise you had to move your hands in a certain way or your feet in a certain way and do facing movements and it all had to be just right.

[00:35:38] And I would see it coming like I would see other people doing that I'm like oh shit how am I going to figure out how to do this and they're like hundreds of people watching right now if I mess it up like we're all going to get screamed at because of me.

[00:35:54] I learned to just embrace it. I would tell myself it's all going to happen everything yours afraid of is going to happen and you're going to be okay and indeed every single thing.

[00:36:09] I was afraid of doing an OTS did happen where I had to do it and I had to do it under pressure and I had to do it under scrutiny.

[00:36:17] But I always lived I always figured it out 100% of the time I figured it out and I got through it and.

[00:36:27] I don't know well I'm sure actually that growing up in such a difficult chaotic oppressive abusive environment hardened me in a lot of ways or maybe a better way of saying that is made me very resilient very tough and now you know in business or in.

[00:36:51] In my personal life if there's something I'm afraid of I just tell myself the same thing I'm like you know what it's all going to happen it's all going to happen to me at some point and I'm going to make it and I'm going to be okay and.

[00:37:06] I think that that was something that does tell. Really well from like a mental health perspective between my time growing up in a cult and going into the military is like.

[00:37:20] I know into my bones that I can do hard things and then I'm a survivor and then I can I can get through just about anything but also. I found that I came out of all of those environments.

[00:37:40] And I was still me like I still had a heart still so cared so I had a few bucks in my field of fucks to give and I you know I think it's important to focus on.

[00:37:54] How horrible the cult is and how harmful and abusive and oppressive it is and it's wrong and we don't like cults people. But it also made me who I am in a lot of ways and. I do.

[00:38:13] I appreciate that I mean I hate how I got these qualities I hate that growing up in a really abusive cult made officer training is cool really easy because no one was hitting me even though they were screaming at me that's legitimately tragic.

[00:38:28] But also it could kind of come at me and I knew I was going to be okay because pretty much nothing. Not well absolutely nothing I've experienced as an adult was as bad as being raped and beaten all the time in a cult so.

[00:38:47] Yeah so with that all being said do you think and in your situations very specific to you and maybe not everybody in the cult had. That's bad of a time as you did within your your biological family but how.

[00:39:07] How well or poorly do you think like other cult kids would do in the military I think they'd be great because you know I've talked to other people who maybe they didn't grow up in a cult but they grew up in a really physically abusive environment.

[00:39:21] They will say the same thing is me like people yelling I all day what abs man like come at me bro no one's hitting me here and make a function very well in that fog of war environment as well because they were accustomed to it if you're accustomed to screaming and yelling all the time like it's not going to face you.

[00:39:44] It's really not going to face you you're going to be like oh there's better my face that's only happened a hundred times before you know or thousands times before again it's kind of sad but it was so not a big deal.

[00:39:58] It's sad that it sounds like you know people they come from abusive backgrounds what actually do very well or they would acclimate well to the military me that's the best way of putting it like it's not going to be is traumatic for them.

[00:40:13] It's been traumatized by that stuff and it's not going to register. Okay and then my my flight commander I think this was pretty fucked up.

[00:40:23] I had to explain that I had you know the sexual assault case against my brother pending and we talked about that in four years in court in that episode but my my leadership at OTS ended up.

[00:40:41] Knowing a bit about my history and I forget how my flight instructor found out. But he knew I was a strangulation survivor so that week of combatives. One thing you learn is how to choke someone out and how to protect yourself if someone is choking you out.

[00:41:01] So my flight commander selected me to be the person he taught everyone else on. Are you really getting me pig?

[00:41:13] Yeah so he choked me out to the point where I like almost blacked out I think it was like 13 times or something teaching it and I found out later he did it on purpose to see if I'd break.

[00:41:25] I think that's pretty fucked up for the record I didn't break. Yeah that's pretty fucked up. So I want to go back so you're in tech school. So growing up going through this 80 i curriculum.

[00:41:43] What was happening like when you get into an actual I mean you had already been through college at this point. I've been through grad school as well. So maybe this wasn't. Well it wasn't my field.

[00:41:57] So at three star general picked the career field I went into after being a pilot. He wrote the letter but redirected my career and it was a stem field which I have no background in like not.

[00:42:19] So that was a huge learning curve for me and I was in class with like actual astrophysicists. Like. I'm not at all intimidating and everyone in there except like me and I think maybe one other person she might also have had a stem degree.

[00:42:36] I think I I think I might have been the only person in my class who didn't have a stem degree.

[00:42:42] So I got up and at four in the morning and studied and until it's time to go to class and then I went to class and then I got dinner and studied until like sometimes 10 p.m. Was in early night sometimes midnight.

[00:42:59] Flutters much as I could got up studied and I took breaks like I would go hang out with my classmates sometimes usually on the weekends. I would I would give myself a break but.

[00:43:13] Yeah, I just had to really apply myself to make that transition into that career field and it was it was another situation where. I learned okay I can do. Other categories of hard things and lived to tell the tale.

[00:43:35] I graduated at the top of my class from that training and. Of we had so many tests. It's so many tests. I missed four questions the entire course.

[00:43:50] So four months and there were three individuals in the class who only missed three questions they were all engineers and astrophysicists.

[00:44:04] So I felt pretty good about that and the way I graduated at the top of the class was because they take the whole person so like my grades absolutely mattered and I had to maintain a specific GPA to even be eligible.

[00:44:19] But then they look at like your leadership skills and other stuff. So yeah, I was really proud of that and I learned a lot and I thought that one was hard and then the military sent me to another one. I got my god.

[00:44:34] So yeah, so this is all you started off going to our PA school or. Yeah, right. Yeah remotely piloted aircraft school. So your medical stuff gets you out of that.

[00:44:46] You get redirected over into this very and you probably don't want to say when it is but a very math heavy career field. Yep with no like not only did you not go like that it's not what your your masters or your bachelor's degrees in.

[00:45:02] It's not stim stuff at all. I'd never had a math class in my life. Yeah, so that's what I was getting at is like what was it? I guess like for you to go from never really having a true math class or like.

[00:45:17] How was that going from like nothing into like you're in a very very high level mathematics course in tech school learning. Very high level problems with like no foundation at all to pull from like not even.

[00:45:37] Yeah, so let's back up and tell people why I've never taken a math course even though I have a bachelor's degree and you have to have a math credits do get that.

[00:45:45] Okay, so I taught myself everything I know about math beyond multiplication and division that's how far Chris would take us and then I was just handed. Text books and told to figure it out.

[00:46:00] So I taught myself algebra and trig and at the time that was all the state I lived didn't require to graduate high school. Which is normal yeah back then it was.

[00:46:11] And I went to college and I was in a five year music program it was a five year bachelor of music not bachelor of arts bachelor of music so it's like higher level. And we took so many music theory courses that they negated the math requirement.

[00:46:30] So I was I was a bachelor of music major for several years and then.

[00:46:37] A bunch of life stuff happened and I had to switch my major and I was almost ready to graduate except I needed a math course now suddenly so I clapped out of it like I. Barely passed the clip I mean it.

[00:46:56] Yeah, and and at that point in my life I wasn't talking about the cold I was trying to. To be normal and not bring it up.

[00:47:06] Um, and I didn't want people to know yeah I didn't want people to know I grown up in a cold so it wasn't like I could ask for help like yeah I grew up in a cold we're no and taught me anything beyond multiplication and division. Help.

[00:47:20] So so that's how I got through that and then I mean I just I don't I think I use Khan Academy like. For for tech school I had to like basically. Learn math like for real.

[00:47:39] Um, but I still wasn't talking about this stuff at that point in my life. I had one friend. Um, who was an engineer who helped me. Like after class I'd be like all right I got to learn this.

[00:47:51] I was like yeah what do I do and he would either teach me or he would point me to other resources where I could learn everything because it wasn't just math it was engineering I mean it was a bunch of stuff.

[00:48:04] Who and and so like I just I don't I don't remember really I just studied so much during that time I like I was just studying.

[00:48:18] And then the military sent me to another course that had a test you had to or like homework you had to do before the course even started and that like you had to know how to do it like that was how they evaluated.

[00:48:36] If you could be in that course and oh that course was required for my job I had no option but to learn so there was this really lovely. Captain in my squadron at the time and she was an astrophysicist I forget if she already had her masters or.

[00:48:55] I think she I think she had her masters degree in astrophysics and she said that some of the stuff we were doing was like homework that she did like graduate level astrophysics. Um, and I know you know this is not my background. Thank you.

[00:49:11] Don't be a female in a cult really do not recommend.

[00:49:15] So at this point you know I was quite a bit older and I just I didn't it was embarrassing but I just didn't care because I wanted to succeed and I didn't want to let my unit down and so I just went to her and I love them is like I don't I don't know how to do this.

[00:49:32] I think I teared up a bit because I was just like this is the thing that is haunted me because it's something I wanted to be really really good at like everything I know now if I could if I could have a redo I would get a bachelor's degree in physics like I actually really like it and I was okay at it too like after someone actually taught me.

[00:49:54] Instead of just having to teach myself everything and so I explained everything to her and she was like alright we're going to get you through this so she had five days to get me up to that level of.

[00:50:06] Capability and she's incredible because we did it and I passed all of the tests.

[00:50:12] I didn't get a single question wrong. I think in any of the tests we had to take for that class and there wasn't an official DG but the commander like named me the top graduate at the end of the commander of the schoolhouse and again it was a combination of like.

[00:50:30] whole person leadership skills test scores all that kind of stuff it's crazy how not having a really good foundational education can haunt you and I feel like life was like cool let's make you do everything you're afraid of.

[00:50:48] But again I think it was good for me like I've learned a couple million times over my life I can do hard things and and they still stress me the fuck out.

[00:50:59] Yeah and you know as we're talking through all of this I think you're smarter than I am like just being honest with myself here like you're smarter than I am and I've.

[00:51:12] I work in cybersecurity now but I also I started off in the electrical engineering which is pretty math heavy as physics level but like it's I did some crazy math shit in there and you know I and I actually enjoy math and so.

[00:51:29] taking a lot of math classes through public school and college and and was in STEM programs and still do have a STEM degree a couple of them.

[00:51:40] And I don't think the average person would have been able to do what you did like coming up out of the environment you came out of like I don't personally I feel like just a normal cult kid or normal IQ cult kid coming in I don't think would have succeeded as well as you had and would have adapted as well as you did like just like contextually for everybody else listening like I think this is.

[00:52:10] just kind of a. Just like I a test met House smart Yorkers, I saw some of the Astro physics stuff you did and you liked knocked it out and I was like I.

[00:52:20] Like I don't think I could have picked this up and you picked it up rather quickly like within a night. And could figure that stuff out and I was just looking at it like this is crazy shit, like I don't.

[00:52:32] don't, it would have taken me a lot longer to like pick it up and run with it. Um, well I didn't have a choice. Well you didn't, but you know, it's still, it's still something.

[00:52:45] Like I know it was due or die for you, but you know that's, that's hard. It was very hard stuff. Like those were not easy math problems. Um, no they were not. So, it felt amazing to solve them, but it was like,

[00:53:03] yeah, what is, what is that like, please excuse my dear Aunt Sally? Mm-hmm. That captain was the first person who ever told me that in my life. Yeah and I like water of operations. I didn't, yeah. And I remember sitting in math class and it was probably

[00:53:23] six, seventh, seventh grade when I heard that one. Hmm. Um, yeah, what have been seventh grade? I was 32. Yeah. So, I mean like that. I mean that's a prime example is like those, those, you know, when you have an actual math teacher, they teach you those things or

[00:53:42] I mean, I was learning stuff. I mean it was, it was really sad because no, whenever like taught me this stuff. But also, I got to sit there for four months and I was like, this is so cool. Oh, that's how that works. This is amazing.

[00:53:57] I love, I had to do an electrical engineering portion and I loved it. It was my favorite part of the whole course. So outside of, outside of math, where there are other subjects that were that you encountered like in the military that were,

[00:54:13] was hard for you to pick up on as far as school subjects go. There was a portion of electrical engineering that was a pretty significant mind fuck, but I think it's like that for everyone. It's like dark magic. But I don't know.

[00:54:36] I think I was just so fascinated and so curious that that smooth the path for everything. I mean, I learned, I learned so many things. I didn't know. And there was a lot of grief like I remember being on the phone with my friend

[00:54:55] and like while I was in tech school, the first really stem course I went through. And I did a lot of grieving over my childhood. Like I think education is powerful. Knowledge is power. Like education has changed my life and changed my options in life.

[00:55:15] And I mean, yeah, I remember crying to my friend like, I would have made such different choices in my life. Had I been properly educated? I probably would have gone to school for physics or electrical engineering.

[00:55:34] And that's, you know, that was a really hard thing to grieving come to terms with. These days, I'm happy with where my life is headed. I'm pursuing a PhD. Like, yeah, I had to do a lot of remedial work on my own and with people who were kind

[00:55:54] of to help me like that captain, like my friend who is an electrical engineer. But I am still achieving my higher education dreams. So yeah, it's just, it's sad how particularly being female in that environment

[00:56:13] is such a handicap later on, if you get out of a cult and want to do something more with your life than I said at home and make meals for someone. So I feel like I could ask questions about this all day.

[00:56:28] And we keep going on this question. I have, would you recommend? Like, if there's anybody else listening to this, it's like coming out of a cult or some sort of oppressive environment or maybe even a, as a violent, you know, or violence in the back.

[00:56:48] Yeah, like a violence in the background, like would you recommend they go into the military? Not right away. So here's what I realized. I went from a cult to a hyper conservative Christian college that was just as bad as a cult

[00:57:02] into the military, which is, well, it's not a cult. It's still like, well, I'm not sure in the ring, or that it's absolutely a cult. But it's a very restrictive environment. And then when I medically retired, that was, I had such an existential crisis.

[00:57:24] So I woke up the next morning after my retirement and I was like, this, this is the first time in my life that I get to pick what I want without any external forces controlling that.

[00:57:45] And I'm still getting used to it and I've been out for over a year, like, what a year and a half now. Yeah. And so I would say if you, if you grew up in a cult or a really oppressive environment, just make sure

[00:58:00] you have some time to make your own choices. Three for a little bit. And be free. I'm not saying go make bad choices, or, you know, but go be an adult for a little bit.

[00:58:14] But yeah, you'd probably kick out some of the military because there are a lot of things that are not going to face you. And so you'll have that headspace to focus on doing really well instead.

[00:58:27] Because you're not like, oh my god, someone screaming at me and no one's ever done that before my life. Which was true for some of the cadets that I went through a T.S. with.

[00:58:37] They were using a lot of brain space to cope with, you know, that fog of war. Whereas I just, like, I got to devote all my brain space to do in real well because I had built in, unfortunately,

[00:58:51] I had built in mechanisms. So it just bypassed all of that. But yeah, if you're, if you're used to really regimented lifestyle, then yeah, he'd probably excel in the military.

[00:59:04] So what was it like for you to get into the military? And then have these people that are around you that actually want to help you succeed as opposed to your childhood, where everybody's

[00:59:18] like trying to prevent you from succeeding or like, like pigeonholing you into like this thing. Like you're going to be a stay at home mom and that's it. You're not going to learn anything else because

[00:59:27] you don't need it. So what was it like going into an environment in, and I'm just guessing here. But my understanding is in the military, like you very much learned that like what's the phrase,

[00:59:43] the rising tide lifts all boats like is that a normal rise? Yeah. I mean, I think ideally, that's how it is. Unfortunately, there are a lot of politics and you know still there's a lot of backstabbing among junior officers which I don't agree with and didn't participate in.

[01:00:01] I believe in peer supporting peers. But what it was like to suddenly be rooted for. So in Christian college when I had to change my major, I switched it to like theology and philosophy and the almost entirely male faculty told me I was wasting my time

[01:00:26] because I couldn't go to seminary because women can't be pastors. So why would I want to study that? And like some of them would purposefully give me bad grades like trying to discourage me. It was

[01:00:35] very misogynistic. There was a lot of discrimination and so I didn't really have people who were rooting for me in college. There was one person, my senior year, there was a woman who really believed in me and tried to give me opportunities. That's when I started teaching

[01:00:58] sexual assault prevention and response actually. It was under her. She was the one who started opening doors for me to teach faculty and staff how to be trauma-informed. And this was back before trauma-informed was really a hell buzzword, this was ages ago. So she was really the only

[01:01:17] one and then I got in the military and it was like everyone in my leadership was rooting for me and they gave me amazing opportunities. And I worked my ass off. It was not like, here it's

[01:01:34] easy. A lot of it was really hard. There were, I was trying to figure out things like fake shots just navigating politics and DC and being sent to the Pentagon all alone as a second lieutenant

[01:01:51] here didn't know anything. So it was a lot but they all believed in me. They all gave me really good interesting hard jobs. I mean, I'm not going to talk about it here but some of my job titles like

[01:02:11] they still blow my mind looking back on it and I was just so lucky. I was so, so lucky to primarily work for phenomenal people who took good care of me and gave me opportunities to succeed and

[01:02:25] believed in me and coached me and encouraged me and taught me how to handle some of the politics of it all. And like, you know, we talk a lot about, oh, being in a cult, made me good at the military

[01:02:41] and they're, that's true but also the people, the people who who mentored me and just kind of walked to the military road next to me. They are, they are the best part of my military service and it wasn't

[01:03:01] just people who aren't ranked me like, there were wonderful, wonderful folks who actually worked for me or, or I outranked them. They didn't necessarily always work for me but I outranked them

[01:03:17] who taught me so much and I love them all and I miss them all and my job was really cool but that's not why I miss the military. I miss, I miss my people. I feel very lucky that I got to work with

[01:03:35] some really incredible folks. Yeah. So what was it like for you to, or like how did it feel to like get into this environment and obviously you get your, what they call MOS in the Air Force,

[01:03:49] your AFSC? Yeah, so you're, yeah, so you're job assigned to you pretty much and like this is what you do but I know you had a bunch of like add-on duties that you like volunteered for so like what

[01:04:01] was it like to like you know you get into this environment and like here's your job but also like there are other opportunities if you so choose to do that like what was it like to have that option

[01:04:13] and say like oh well I can also do all these other things because it's an option. And it was an option because I had such supportive leadership who approved like I did a ton of speaking engagements for the military around sexual assault prevention and response resilience,

[01:04:33] suicide prevention just basically mental health intervention. And I loved it and I loved helping my brothers and sisters and arms grapple with those topics but it was really possible because my leadership was so supportive and they were like yep we'll make time for you to go do this

[01:04:54] we'll find a way and so I really I really appreciate that. Did it feel weird to like have options or were you just so excited to like teach that stuff that I didn't know I never felt

[01:05:06] weird to have those options I think I feel like I took a lot of it in stride. Again, I was a mad I was guessing that's what you were gonna say because I feel like sometimes that's what

[01:05:19] happens with you. You're so excited about things like the the nuance to why kind of passes you by and you're just like you're so excited you just go. I guess I have to think about it. Well that's good I mean I'm I know you loved your time

[01:05:42] in the military and I'm glad you got all of those options and you're still continuing with that stuff today so that hasn't stopped. Yeah, still have a lot of connections in terms of speaking engagements I do a lot of training for the military and professionally you know the

[01:06:04] part where I don't swear all the time and I love that I love that those doors are still open and I can still hang out with military people who understand my acronyms. Yep yep I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you for your service.

[01:06:30] It was and the greatest honor of my life. Yep I miss it. And thanks for sharing your story and it is very it's a very interesting connection if that's the right word between you know cults and the military and how

[01:06:48] that impacted you and how it prepared you or didn't prepare you but I think we ran through a good bit of stuff there and I'm sure we could sit here and come up with stuff for like three more hours

[01:07:01] but I think I think the bottom line is like yeah the hierarchy of a coal how regimented it was the oppression the screaming the yelling there were so many things that just made

[01:07:14] the military normal to me still don't join a cult together ready to go into the military like I'm want to be very clear don't join a cult but if you're thinking about joining the military

[01:07:27] and you're someone who comes from an oppressive background just know it well I guess it could go either way it could be very triggering or it could be very empowering I guess I don't know why

[01:07:41] it wasn't triggering for me it was just very empowering for me to take skills that came from a really dark time in my life and utilize them to accomplish something I really wanted to do and

[01:07:53] cared so much about well I said thank you again for your service and thanks for spending time talking about all that stuff I know it's probably hard to dig into that and

[01:08:06] mostly just the embarrassing thing oh and then there was one time I replied all to an email accidentally that had nothing to do with the whole that was everywhere else I worked before did not have reply all is the default you had to like specially select that

[01:08:29] yeah that version of outlook head reply all is the default so a lot of people gave me a lot of shit about that for a really long time fortunately it was a benign email I sent thank god

[01:08:43] and yeah I did a lot of calling people on their bullshit around harassment yeah I could imagine and that was fun I think the one story you haven't told oh no that I know keeps you up at night is

[01:09:10] a time you got in trouble after you were done with training what it had to do with I think you're hat oh oh oh oh oh I didn't get in trouble

[01:09:23] that's why I was like what I never gotten in trouble I was trying to walk out of this quadrant and hold the door open because my commander and a bunch of other people who aren't ranked me

[01:09:34] were walking toward me and saluted at the same time because we were outside so you have to salute but you're also supposed to hold the door and it was just a real bad jumble and it was real bad

[01:09:44] thank you for reminding me of that Kyle that's not a bad thing you do with the call so not bad my commander is like fortunately just kind of like looked and looked at me and it was like

[01:09:55] how and he just kept going things now I'm gonna remember that one tonight in the middle of the night I'm gonna wake you up you're gonna have to suffer with me I had managed to forget all about that

[01:10:09] surprise by that because you mentioned it so many times that like that's what keeps you up and I'm like that is the least bad thing that I could like think of like if that was the worst thing I did

[01:10:23] on active duty was fumble around trying to hold a door and salute at the same time I would be I would call that like great success oh so the day I accidentally replied all I was I was at the

[01:10:37] bad Colonel's office and they told the captain exact and she was like okay LT if that is the worst thing you ever do as a lieutenant like that ain't bad you're fine I promise okay

[01:10:55] all right well that wraps up our episode on the military and the cult and we'll be back next Monday thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind until next time

[01:11:12] don't join a cult if you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode