29 - Discipline in the Cult

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult with you might know from the dugger family

[00:00:14] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together Right, welcome back to the next episode. What do you have for a snide Amanda? Well, I'm drinking. No.

[00:00:39] I'm seemed pretty adamant about getting a drink tonight so... No, so I was talking with my doctor recently and I've been like religious about not drinking because the medication bottles or the instructions said don't drink. So I brought that up with my doctor and she's like,

[00:00:57] no, it's fine. That's for people who don't know how to control themselves without alcohol. You can have a drink from time to time. You'll be fine. I was like, fuck! There are so many episodes I'm really gonna use to drink.

[00:01:09] We did them totally non-alcoholic on my part but tonight we're gonna talk about discipline in the cult. Okay, so what does discipline in the cult mean? Well, it's why I'm drinking. It was...

[00:01:26] It was a lot of, um, basically just abuse, um, under the guys of training up a child and the way he should go. So when he is old, he will not depart from it. I think that's in Proverbs.

[00:01:43] The topics that I think we need to go over, I'm gonna list them out so that I don't forget. So if you want to take notes, I think we need to talk about blanket training.

[00:01:56] Something called three times training. We need to talk about the pearls. Those are people. We need to talk about the switch and other beating implements. Glue sticks, spirit breaking, and then instant obedience in some of my thoughts

[00:02:21] on the pitfalls of that concept. Okay, some of those I have no idea where you're even gonna go with that. I... I'm curious about that. Okay, let's... I guess let's start with blanket training. We've had questions about this.

[00:02:40] I think Elisiner named Samantha's son in a question about this a long time ago and I've been waiting to do this episode to just kind of bring it all together.

[00:02:53] So blanket training is this idea that I think was established by Michael and Debbie Pearl in their book to train up a child, which I believe was published in 1994. So this... I was old enough that this training

[00:03:07] wasn't utilized on me in the same way. It was with a baby, but Chris used it for some of my younger siblings. So blanket training, you start at like six months old and the purpose is to break

[00:03:27] the child's rebellious spirit preemptively. So the way it would work is you... you put a blanket down and you'd put some of the child's favorite things just off the blanket like toys,

[00:03:43] sparkly stuff, whatever would get their interest. And then you tell your little baby to stay on the blanket because your baby is a dog, you know, you're training your puppy. Although people are nicer

[00:03:57] to their puppies I think than I have yellow people where to their own children. And then if the child, you know your six month old decides to crawl off the blanket toward their toys,

[00:04:11] you hit them. And you could use your hand or you could use something like a glue stick. You could hit your child with a glue stick, your six month old because you told them to stay on

[00:04:27] the blanket and they crawl off of it toward their toys. Naturally, I mean they would... I mean it's a baby of six months old, of course, to go after the shiny bed. But that's its rebellious spirit

[00:04:40] child because you told it to stay on the blanket. I mean, this can a six month old even understand that? Stay... And you would start with small increments like five minutes with the goal

[00:04:57] of, you know, building up to however long you wanted your kid to be silent on a blanket. 30 minutes and hour, two hours. How long they would really do this for? That's a long time for

[00:05:14] six month old. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it's very important to break their spirit. I guess that's a commitment. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean it's exercise. Yeah. That's abuse. And that that was normal.

[00:05:34] Like Chris went to Michaels and got glue sticks. When this came out at conferences and she bought the book, she and Rick read the book and they used the book. The book also advocated for toilet

[00:05:49] training infants. Fire call, correctly. Yeah. It just sounds like a very young age. I mean it sounds horrible to begin with, but like that sounds premature. Mm-hmm. But I forget they're reasoning for why. To toilet training infant, maybe because you could skip diapers and diapers are

[00:06:12] expensive and when you have 18 days. That would make sense. Yeah, so that was a whole thing. And the pearls, you can look up their evil book to train up a child and their their goal was to

[00:06:33] break this the rebellious spirit and develop a child who instantly obeys any authority. Mm-hmm. I need command to their give it. Think about the problems there like, I was brainwashing from a young age. Well yeah and I mean it can completely underminds the concept of critical thinking

[00:07:00] and freewell. Yeah an individuality and choice and I think about that a lot sometimes as I think about the different social struggles I've had in my life. So areas where I really excelled, the military were hierarchy and responding quickly to commands that in that environment

[00:07:30] that's rewarded. Of course I did very well. Where I've struggled it's usually more of a safety thing like it didn't happen to me often but there was one time in the military and several times

[00:07:45] in my career before the military where I worked for very unsafe people. And I'm talking like sexual harassment type of unsafe people. And being conditioned from a young age to just blindly follow

[00:08:04] people because they are quote in a position of authority it's very dangerous as it turns out. And it made protecting myself and making decisions in the aftermath what happened very difficult because there was a lot of confusion like well this was an authority figure and I like

[00:08:27] I had choice. Cool that's a great idea that no one ever told me you know and and I think it also was very detrimental in my previous marriage that was you know founded on religious ideology

[00:08:44] that taught my ex husband was my authority. And I mean that created complications as well. Yeah I mean it sounds like it put you in a place that is very susceptible to you know just abuse

[00:09:01] and just your condition to it from a young age like you didn't have it made you feel or sounds like it made you feel like you didn't have the confidence to stand up for yourself because

[00:09:14] you were just like it's authority do what they say and like even if you thought it was wrong it was still authority do what they say. Well because you know as a kid I used I'm a critical thinker

[00:09:26] and I would use my brain and then I'd get beaten for using my brain. So I think there is it's not just the conditioning of you must blindly obey people who proclaim that they are in a position

[00:09:44] of authority over you. It's also you will be physically injured if you speak up. If you defend yourself if you critically assess what is happening and verbalize that how dare you you piece of

[00:10:02] trash. So I think it's very unsafe I'm curious if other folks who grew up in IBLP and ETI were forced fed in stino-bedience pearl style and if you've had similar struggles with just figuring

[00:10:23] out how to navigate life as a person with agency and autonomy and confidence and critical thinking it I would say that's been a significant learning curve for me in adulthood and in young adulthood

[00:10:40] that I've done a lot of therapy actually to work through. But yeah so that's that's blanket training it's some bullshit do not do it good lord and then we have this concept

[00:10:58] times called three times training and I gotta tell you when I heard Chris come back from the conference where Lori Volour had taught three times training it was like for me the straw that broke the

[00:11:11] camels back. We were living in Wisconsin so I know I was at least 11 years old. I don't remember how soon it was after we moved there but I was the absolute youngest I could have been was 11.

[00:11:25] And this was the moment where I decided the whole thing was bullshit like IBLP was bullshit. So Chris comes back and we're all in the living room and she's telling Rick about just

[00:11:36] this amazing session and Lori Volour I call her like that bitch who um was just teaching them so much about raising godly children and you know who fear God and like everything else on the planet

[00:11:56] but you know who cares about that. And she was like yeah she she does this thing called three times training with her children and caliber ever told you about this. I don't think so. Okay okay have fun

[00:12:08] with us this is gonna be great little journey for all of us to go on together. So Lori in that training session use the example of her son leaving his bike out in the yard and she told

[00:12:21] him to put it or he was supposed to put it away or she'd already told him or something the bike wasn't supposed to be in the yard. So she she called them over and she was like son and I that

[00:12:32] sticks with me because she didn't use his name. She called him son. Son put your bike away so he went and put his bike away and then he came back to her and she was like son go put your bike

[00:12:42] back out in the yard so he had to put it back in the yard and then he came back to her son go put your bike away. And so he did and then he came back son go put your bike. For three times this is why

[00:12:52] it's called three times training she made him do an undo what she had told him to do and then he never left his bike out again and I was like this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard like

[00:13:06] that to I am trying to remember I'm trying to like think back to what I felt in my body in that moment. I think it was just like I think I was annoyed and frustrated. It seemed like it was a very

[00:13:21] humiliating thing to do and I'm sure there were times I didn't do what I was told growing up but a lot of times I had a lot on my plate and if something slipped it usually wasn't willfulness.

[00:13:35] It was probably I legitimately forgot because I was you know giving my little sister a bath and cooking dinner for the family and if I don't know making a grocery shopping list.

[00:13:49] I would say a lot of times for me if something slipped it wasn't because I like was lazy and willful and rebellious it was because I was overworked and tired and stuff slipped but I thought

[00:14:03] it was just so like it was such a shaming response to make your kid go back and forth three times and here oh fun fact the military did that. Really? Yeah the military did that so

[00:14:20] so officer training is not the same as and listed training and then listed training there like trying to break you down so they can build you back up and officer training there's a bit of that

[00:14:30] but it's more like trying to build your confidence as a leader, as a decision maker, as a tactical thinker. But the first couple weeks of officer training school they are like breaking you down a bit

[00:14:48] so this one time they put us all in an auditorium and someone high in mighty there I forget who but they were scary at the time because you don't know anything you don't know that a major isn't

[00:15:00] really that big of a deal you think they are but like they're really not sorry all the majors I know and so there's like a major screaming at you like you're all failures you have no sense of urgency

[00:15:14] you're almost fast enough so they put us all in this auditorium and they made us like run information like doing it all properly filing in and out of the right seats at the right time

[00:15:25] in the right order from one auditorium to the next like multiple times and I wish I had thought at the time oh my god they're doing Lori Vollars three times training and it had the same effect

[00:15:40] on me as an adult even though I was like super America and wanted to be there I was like this is the dumbest shit like just tell us you want us to move faster and then it turns out that that's just

[00:15:52] a thing they do to everyone and we weren't like actually that slow and awful it was just that that's part of the ritual of like you all suck why aren't you better you know you're failing

[00:16:03] America the constitution will fall because of you so when I say the military reinforced the lot of shit from the cult like this is what I'm talking about so that it did have like the

[00:16:16] same effect when you when that happened the military were like this is stupid no yeah I mean I was a little scared because they were trying to scare us and you know there's a lot you don't realize

[00:16:30] how hard it is to get kicked out of training while you're in training that's when you find out later but like the constant threat looming over you is that you're gonna get kicked out of training

[00:16:41] because you suck and you will fail you know your countrymen so yeah I was a little like worried about it but yeah it just kind of annoyed me then too yeah I mean it's an interesting

[00:17:00] concept I'm trying to like well isn't it crazy that the military uses that to break you down and they're like doing not with little kids in the cult like we're gonna wage psychological warfare

[00:17:13] on you so that you feel like you are nothing do you feel like nothing yet good yeah I'm trying to decipher that in my head because like you know when I was growing up like playing football or

[00:17:25] something it's like you run a play okay yeah that wasn't good run it again it wasn't good run it again like you just do it over and over and over but you're learning a skill and it's practice

[00:17:36] yeah and and but you guys never got like feedback on that it was just like you're gonna do this over and over and over again because I'm breaking your spirit okay so I feel like in support it's to

[00:17:48] like build you up make you better refine the skill hone it in the context of the cult it was like break you down make you small break your spirit yeah just a more of a punishment than a learning

[00:18:01] yeah it wasn't constructive it was shame yeah it was just shaming yeah it was humiliation probably humiliation we were you subjected to that like I know you were older at that point like the

[00:18:16] G her nature your biology I forgot the best part of the story oh being me of course I didn't sit there quietly in the living room listening to this I think I announced to the whole room that

[00:18:39] it was stupid and I forget what else but I think I definitely called it stupid and maybe oh I'm sure I got in trouble but I remember like leaving the room in like stormy

[00:18:57] go yeah probably most most of what I got in trouble for growing up was talking back because I just if it was stupid I had to say it was stupid like someone needed to and no one else was so you know you gotta call it out Kyle

[00:19:23] I believe that I could see that I wasn't I was always told it was disrespectful and I don't think it was necessarily trying to be like I've disrespecting new parents it was more just like

[00:19:37] like it would just break my brain the stuff freaking Chris thought was like a good idea like it would break my brain because it was so dumb and I would just see something to be

[00:19:51] effective how dumb it was and that you know that didn't generally go very well sounds like you just didn't like irrational in this case discipline yes but blind follow or shut Kyle's blind get in line stay on your blanket well that's also irrational

[00:20:15] so the pearls they're very controversial they they also promoted the switch which was a how shall I describe this disciplineary implement for parents to use on their children all the way down to you know infants so like where I come from a switch is like usually

[00:20:52] something like flexible like a stick or something like that like a this was yep so it had a black rubber handle that was stiff and then a clear flexible

[00:21:10] shaft with a rubber tip on it this kind of like one of those things like a jockey uses on a horse like a I don't know those are called oh I know what you're talking about a crop yes this

[00:21:25] came to a point in had a rubber tip like a hard tip yeah and it was pretty long because you know it had to like flex enough to snap on you and you were supposed to hit the back of the

[00:21:48] child's back is okay did Chris keep it to the back of the child's thighs what's your guest Kyle you're probably not if I just wherever landed so yeah really swing um pretty sure I caught

[00:22:06] it in the face oh that definitely the back but back of the legs front of the abdomen kind of wherever kind of wherever now when I was younger she could pin us and she would pin us

[00:22:25] and I really hope I really hope in whatever comes after this life there's like a special process for people like Chris um she liked to do bear bottoms bankings is what she called it

[00:22:45] and uh she continued to do that to me even after knowing I had been sexually assaulted she would remove clothing and pin me down to beat me wow yeah sorry I had to go through that's

[00:23:00] whole like that's that mesh just straight up child abuse oh yeah I mean and she did that to my other siblings but she fucking did that to me after knowing and like removing items from my body

[00:23:14] that my brother put in me while I blood in scraped so when I was smaller yes she would pin me down and honestly my three younger brothers got the worst of it with the beatings um it's really

[00:23:35] it's really tragic because I talked to at least two of them um the two older of the three younger brothers when they were adults and granted this was like over 10 years ago so I don't know what they

[00:23:46] think of it now but they were both like oh Amanda we deserved that we deserved it we were such bad kids and I don't know if it's age and perspective but I think my brothers were like kind

[00:24:07] in normal in terms of their behavior growing up in a traumatic environment in a cult with abusive parents and chaos raining supreme in the home and like they fought and they weren't always well

[00:24:29] behaved but like they could also be so sweet and they also played like I mean they would kill each other half the time and play the other half of the time um you know they were we called them the

[00:24:42] three musketeers and like I think they were just what you would expect of little boys in that environment. That's how you describe and we're as you're describing that's what I've been kind of

[00:24:53] that's kind of how I'm interpreting is just it sounds like they were acting like young boys in and then they were acting out about their environment so I'm sure it wasn't like like okay for

[00:25:05] instance I have friends with little boys and they scream in run in blah blah blah and that's just you know normal and they create chaos in a mess um and they fight sometimes and I think my brothers were

[00:25:19] like that but just probably up a couple notches which would account for the environment in which we were raised um because well what I said to those two brothers was that what

[00:25:34] Chris did was abuse and then they were like oh no no no no she was such a good parent like we deserved that we were so bad we were the worst she was such a good mom like we deserved that

[00:25:47] they they both said like the way they talked about it both of them it was very like stalk home syndromey um and it broke my heart at the time it still makes me sad to think about it now I hope

[00:25:58] I hope they know now that like that wasn't normal and I probably should have given a topic disclaimer earlier but we're gonna go a little bit deeper into um violence

[00:26:11] one of one of the worst fucking memories of my life um the house that we moved into when I was 11 it was like this old Victorian farmhouse and it had weird doors with like locks and keys and

[00:26:33] you could lock the back half of the house off so you couldn't get so you walk in through the mudroom into the kitchen into the dining room and then there were doors that you could lock so

[00:26:46] you couldn't get to the living rooms you couldn't go upstairs to the bedrooms like it just all got locked off a one day Chris lost her fucking mind I don't know what the boys had done

[00:26:58] but she had them lined up over a sofa whipping them with the switch and they were screaming and I went running I went running to find her and I was like trying to pull her back and pull her

[00:27:15] off and like pull the switch out of her hand and I got beat up pretty good and pushed into the dining room and she locked all the doors and then she kept beating them for a really long time while they screamed

[00:27:32] wow that's next some next level you know like yeah that sounds awful but I think Amy was with me for that I think we didn't have the best relationship but I think we just stood in the

[00:27:55] dining room like holding each other and sobbing because we couldn't get in there hmm so then I decided that enough was enough after the and she would hide the switch she would bury it somewhere in the house and so every time she went to the grocery store

[00:28:17] or out on errands I would systematically hunt the house for it and it took a while but eventually I found it and one of the perks of having to wear ankle length skirts is you can hide stuff

[00:28:31] so I got one of my skirts one day while she was gone I went and got the switch and um I wore like a billowy t-shirt and one of my ankle length skirts and I tucked it into the band of my skirt like

[00:28:45] underneath and I walked it out of our yard we had an agreement with the neighbors that we could walk along the edge of their property into the area behind where there was like a meadow and stuff

[00:28:59] um so I walked all the way over there down to the end of that neighborhood where there was what are those culverts yeah a culvert and I crawled into the culvert and hit it in there

[00:29:17] under some rocks and then Chris ordered another one and that kind of stuff like it just I don't think Abby ever got beaten up but my younger brothers did an idea I don't think the older three ever got this switch used on them um and Rick was different

[00:29:48] like Rick would discipline but he was like that this is kind of hurt me more than it hurt you and he didn't like he didn't hit us hard um and like a lot of times if Rick was the one

[00:30:02] disciplining it usually ended in something funny happening like I remember one time this would have been I don't remember how old I was but my my three younger brothers they all got in trouble for

[00:30:14] something and they were sent to their room until Rick got home and he was supposed to go in there and give him a spanking and he walked in and they had all stuffed like books or they'd put on all their

[00:30:25] pants or something put a couple extra pair underwear on yeah they and Rick came walking out of their room like hunched over laughing like he couldn't even do the discipline because he was laughing

[00:30:40] so hard um got a pillow stuffed in their pants something like that and yeah um so is that normal like in the cult for the well-breaking beatings well the guy and the shiny

[00:31:00] happy people thing talked about that too I guess my question was was it more prevalent for the the wife or the mom to like be the hardcore disciplineer as opposed to the father

[00:31:14] my only evidence for that is anecdotal like in my family it was the guy in the docu series talked about how his mother was in the voller like the lady who taught the blanket or the three time

[00:31:31] straining it seemed like she was the disciplinary and and to train up a child it seemed like Debbie Pearl had a lot more like disciplinary opportunities as the stay at home mother

[00:31:48] and that was usually it like you had these stay at home mothers who became the primary caregiver and I think anecdotally therefore the primary disciplinary and and a lot of these women were

[00:32:05] like unhinged let's not forget that well a lot of the adults were pretty fucking unhinged yeah I mean and obviously we don't have the answer to this question just kind of curiously where the wives

[00:32:17] are the moms just like have so much repressed anger or anger they couldn't get out in the other ways it's like well kids being a hellian and so like here comes all this rage it's inside from being

[00:32:30] oppressed and you know like well worked and all this other stuff and I mean you could but I feel like that's a very slippery slope of like excusing the behavior like oh there are

[00:32:45] pressure and resulted in abuse like I was fucking oppressed my whole life and I'm not out there abusing people so I think that you can yes you can be an oppressed person and be filled with

[00:32:58] rage and channel that rage into oppressing and harming other people or you can be oppressed and you can be like I'm gonna fucking get myself out of here and then I'm gonna spend the rest of my life

[00:33:08] trying to help people not be oppressed you have other options or you can just walk away and like you know go live in Antarctica where you don't have to deal with humans and you know just live in peace

[00:33:18] for the rest of your days I'll be it cold so you like you have options other than turning into a fucking maniac and I've mentioned on this podcast before like I slept with a wire hanger

[00:33:32] under my pillow for years because of Chris's rage issues and her abuse of us and I kept a go bag for myself and I kept a go bag for my younger siblings and I memorized the route to our

[00:33:46] grandparents house and as we drove there like even when we moved an hour and a half away I would map out like here's where we can walk and sleep and here's where the police stations are and like oh yeah

[00:34:00] like I was ready yes um I'm sure a lot of that was a trauma response but also she would lose her fucking mind and well sounds like you had plenty of reasons to come up with a plan like that like

[00:34:20] oh yeah it's one thing to know like oh I know how to get to grandma's house like you go down here and you turn here and then you turn there and then you turn here and you're there it's a different

[00:34:30] thing to be like oh here's what we can sleep on the side of the road yes like that's that's a whole other level of planning and you know just thinking and I don't know if my kid oh yeah like keep in mind

[00:34:47] this was all going on before I was even a teenager like I had the go bags and it's left with a hanger and um I don't know if they would remember it but like I would tell my younger

[00:34:58] brothers like I have a plan if it gets bad we're leaving we're going to pop in grandma's I'll get us there like did you get close to doing that after yeah after that instance yeah and and part of my

[00:35:14] plan was our bedrooms were on the second floor so we did have a fire escape ladder and I think I remember like that was my plan like I would get them out in the middle and I

[00:35:24] found the fire escape and we would go and I think I told them about it once the plan I told them that if it got bad we were going to go out the window in the middle of the night using the fire

[00:35:37] escape ladder and I would get us to the police or to pop in grandma's or something and I don't know I don't know how my siblings experienced our childhood because I'm not them and again the conversations

[00:36:00] I had about this were like over 10 years ago and my impression at the time was like there was significant stock homes syndrome so I don't know if my siblings thought things were dire

[00:36:14] I had the piece of the puzzle of like oh we get raped in this household too like I think I was more aware and alert to just the dynamics and I mean you know this now like if

[00:36:34] your breathing changes I notice it like part of growing up in that environment was being hyper vigilant and part of my therapy work is an adult has been around coming out of hyper vigilance but I just monitored everything like a monitored Chris' mood all fucking day long

[00:36:57] and I would be like all right kids we're going to go play outside or you know whatever because I knew she couldn't our house is on the corner of a pretty busy street so I knew she couldn't walk out

[00:37:10] there and beat us oh I can public yeah in the yard so if I kept the kids outside playing you're safe they were saying yeah and we like before this switch there was a two by four really yeah that's that's brutal and and then one time we were

[00:37:38] we were in the north woods we would go to this lake and um not camp but they had like log cabins along the lake and they had boats you could take out can use robots and one year someone

[00:37:50] broke one of the oars um like just the handle so we had to buy them a new one and Rick took the broken or home and used that to hit us like the paddle like patty like paddle

[00:38:08] paddle or the paddle um and then after the switch it was just kind of like the switch yeah and I don't know I don't know how long Chris continued to use that because you know I eventually

[00:38:26] left for college and moved out um I think I feel like I got rid of the second switch too I feel like I found a way to get that one out of the house but I don't remember

[00:38:43] so is there ever a point in which like the switch was permanently gone because they gave up that they kept getting stolen or I don't know I don't know okay but yeah I was I've mentioned this

[00:38:57] on the podcast as well the last time I was hit I was hit in the face and I was um I think 21 so I mean it didn't it didn't really like stop I don't remember Andrea getting hit

[00:39:15] that much I think I saw her get hit in the face at least once um Andy rarely got punished for anything um I feel like Amy Amy hard like I hit I think I remember seeing her get maybe hit in

[00:39:35] the face once I did like any of the kids once I had you know when passed like 18 that any of them like stand up to the parents or was it just everybody was kind of used to that like

[00:39:51] you know even I don't know what's a voice that I don't know what the younger boys did I feel like as we got older we all fought her and my thing was I was quick I was speedy so

[00:40:05] I would run away I would run up the stairs I would throw the dresser in front of the door I would brace against the bed against the wall and like slam my back into the door

[00:40:17] and brace with my feet in the bed frame to keep the door shut and eventually she gets sick of trying to get in and go away but then you still had to stay in there for like hours and now

[00:40:30] we're going to be there so God bless if you had to pee or something like you were just stuck so I I'm mostly ran away I don't know if the boys thought her or not as they grew up

[00:40:50] I don't know but it sounds like the I guess the the disciplining I mean it was a view is but like the disciplining they were doing it wasn't any different for the girls or the

[00:41:05] boys it sounds like everybody kind of got the same I think the boys got a worse I mean I got hit in the face a lot um maybe maybe my brothers were a little dipshit sometimes like one of them

[00:41:19] pulled a knife on me a couple times like a kitchen knife the other one stabbed me repeatedly with a pencil like made holes in my arm that had like led stuck in it from the pencil

[00:41:35] and they hit me my brothers would punch me my younger brothers would punch me in the stomach a lot so I mean they weren't always great but also they got lined up and beaten so again I think it's

[00:41:49] age that's softened my opinion of their childhood antics a bit um and perspective and getting out of there but I think the boys the three younger boys probably got it the worst of all of us in terms of like

[00:42:08] violent beatings numerous times many times so what do you think the youngest got it were so bad the younger three mm-hmm I think Chris is like mental state at the time or just

[00:42:27] I think it was some of that I think the girls were better at compliance because we were raised to some guy mm-hmm I think the girls were better at compliance the girls were better at being quiet

[00:42:40] in less it was something dumb and it was me then I would say it was dumb um yeah and the boys I don't know they were just they weren't I mean I don't know if any of us were parented I don't know

[00:43:00] if the three older kids like the three older then I am got parented I don't think I was ever parented like I don't feel like anyone raised me probably the closest thing to that is Andrea the oldest

[00:43:16] kid um and then the three younger boys and Abby I feel like Amy and I did a lot more of that like nurturing caring for like I don't have a lot of memories of Chris being a mom to them like when

[00:43:46] I was really little I have memories of her coming in at that time and singing us songs and like rubbing like I remember her stroking my hair and I loved those moments I loved them

[00:44:00] because she always said she didn't sing wow but I thought she had such a pretty voice and I liked the song she sang and I liked when she would sit there and stroke my my forehead in my

[00:44:14] hair um but that stopped like young like these are toddler type memories um when the the younger kids came along it was like me and Amy and Andrea for a while she was so much older she was

[00:44:32] she was gone working at the quilt headquarters when a lot of the kids were young so it was like it was me it was Amy who put the kids to bed we were the ones who sang them the songs we were the ones like

[00:44:45] I figured out you know my one brother if I if I rubbed his eyebrows he would fall asleep you know if I sang to him and rocked him and rubbed his eyebrows there was another one um we had

[00:44:56] one of those braided rugs you know in a big oval and I would just rock him and walk the whole pattern of the rug all the way in and all the way out until he fell asleep like with Abbey

[00:45:09] I think I think Chris was excited to have a girl after the three boys I think she had wanted Abbey to be a girl um so she was a little more involved like I remember her giving Abbey baths

[00:45:24] and dressing her and doing her hair and stuff whereas like with the boys I think Chris would give them haircuts but like on Sunday mornings before church on Wednesdays before prayer meeting anytime we

[00:45:36] went anywhere it was usually me and or Amy you know making sure that they had the right close to where making sure they took their shower bath making sure they combed their hair brush 30 like

[00:45:46] I remember when we would go away on vacation or holidays like I would be in my younger brothers who are packing their backpacks with all of their outfits and like I don't I don't know if they

[00:45:58] ever got parented by anyone other than their older siblings and I think that's like problematic I don't know people people are like almost be so cool they're grow up in a big family and

[00:46:13] I really think it's not like we didn't have access to the parents when you're part of a large family there's not enough time to go around and Chris for like two minutes she did this

[00:46:28] thing we're like she was gonna spend an hour with each of us every week like we each had one day a week where we got an hour of christ time and I remember that happening like maybe three times

[00:46:39] we did a tea party in the living room once I think we went shopping together once and like I don't I feel like there was another one but it was very short lived and I don't even know if my younger

[00:46:53] brothers and sister got that that might have like that might have been done in over before they were even born um so I think where I was going with all of that was like no wonder these kids acted out

[00:47:11] the younger ones you know the way they did I don't think and Rick oh god so then the boy got into basketball and Rick was that asshole parent who like needed to vigorously live through

[00:47:29] their child and he would like if they missed a shot or something he would like a storming out of the gym and pacing the halls and all angry and yell at them the whole way home and like what a dick

[00:47:43] very the great cliche overly involved parent I just I don't know maybe it's the way my life circumstances have shaped me but I cannot imagine looking at your child and being like you

[00:47:55] little fucked party missed your free throw like like what kind of asshole does that like they're a little kid for god's sake and be a player's miss that shit sometimes like cheese I don't know

[00:48:13] so was that just like a continuation of the perfectionism oh god yes because Lewis has had to be the best I don't know if you need that Kyle but you can't be the best because the Lewis is a bed the

[00:48:25] best since like the 90s so I think we've made it through the three times training the pearls the switch the glue sticks and blanket training we did that too mm-hmm so spirit breaking yeah so if you didn't break your child's spirit back when they were six months old

[00:48:51] you know Kyle you really had your work cut out for you as a parent in the will breaking department so is that they're like total objective was like let's get them trained to be obedient like

[00:49:05] by six months so that we didn't have to like yeah because the pearls differentiate between training and discipline they say that discipline only occurs if you don't train properly so training equals abuse you know with the pearl methodology but yeah their whole thing was to

[00:49:26] to just eradicate free will I think from a young age and like there's this one horrible example of from the book of Debbie Pearl like she wanted her kid to like this pair of skates or

[00:49:42] something and he wouldn't like turn the skate over and roll it so he was being defiant so she switched him and told him to you know hold the skate and make the wheels spin and he didn't

[00:49:58] and so she she switched him like ten times before his defiance finally broke and he made the wheels on his skate spin because she told him to and he needed to honor authority and immediately obey

[00:50:14] like can you imagine being such a petty bitch that that is the line you draw in the sand and die over you have to hold your skate upside down and spin the wheels with your hand or I'll beat you

[00:50:27] that's pretty bad and I'm sure the kid was like defiantly not doing it because they're like because they're like abused and yeah they're just like no I don't like I'm just going to say no

[00:50:39] because it's you're just trying to make it I felt that as a kid it's almost oh man I don't know I have really connected with dystopian stories as an adult because you know they're

[00:50:53] the rebels fighting for freedom and goodness and and the cause and then you have like the tyrannical evil you know overlords and I think that you get some of that like that's at least the way I went like

[00:51:07] I know the cult would say this was the worst thing because rebellion is the worst thing that you can have in your spirit as a person but like you gotta have a bit of that like rebellion in

[00:51:19] you to survive that environment like you have to have that drive that's like I'm gonna keep my head up if I'm hit like if she hits me in the face I'm not gonna cry I'm gonna stand there and stare

[00:51:31] her down because she just hit me in the face and and Rick made me stand there and take it so I'm just going to be a fucking ice queen and like you have to kind of have that to get through

[00:51:49] that environment and but if you had that then you got targeted more too so you know that defiance I think I think that was like that spark of like human spirit that was fighting back against this

[00:52:11] oppression and abuse one of my other worst memories actually wasn't being hit it was I temporarily broke once and this memory haunts me and very ashamed of it because it's the only time I remember breaking like this I was in college so an adult was over

[00:52:46] the age of 18 and I think it was summer break or something and I was home and Chris and Rick were in the process of trying to break my will again because there was a guy I wanted to date

[00:53:01] oh no yeah the guy I ended up marrying um which is a whole other story I think well I think in the divorce episode I talked about okay he was such a good friend growing up and like was a good

[00:53:13] thing in my life and then we got married and then it all went bad so like the relationship I was wanting and fighting for at the time was with someone who had only ever been good to me and supportive

[00:53:27] of me um and loving toward me so it seemed like a pretty okay thing to like fight for seeing as I was an adult you know providing for myself um oh gosh this means we need to talk about the concept

[00:53:43] of stay at home daughters oh just I'll see if that would for another one that sounds interesting well you have to you kind of have to understand though okay so the cult wanted you to be a stay at home

[00:53:56] daughter until marriage like you needed to get married out of your father's home like literally live there okay so I was supposed to be a stay at home daughter so I'm like I'm this adult I'm living you know

[00:54:09] the whole school year I provide for myself I come home for the summers for Christmas you know I buy my own food I'm paying rent to live in their home you know but I have to be as stay at home

[00:54:21] daughter you know you may not have a continuation of the transfer of authority yes you got her ricks authority yes so that's why it was and then you know the courtship commitment and even though my accident my accident I never slept together before marriage or did anything

[00:54:42] untoward um what do I don't recommend by the way um we we like it was still so rebellious of me to want that relationship so I was I mean they had pulled out all the stops like I was having medical issues

[00:55:01] that I now know were from you know childhood trauma but they said it was for my rebellious spirit and God would keep punishing me and all of this stuff and like there was this one day

[00:55:12] Chris was just going at me and yelling at me and we were in the fucking laundry room of all places we were in the laundry room off the kitchen of of their home and I couldn't I couldn't take it anymore

[00:55:27] like the screaming the yelling the hitting the being told that God was cursing me and anything bad that had happened to me ever was a result of my rebellion and turning my back on my parents'

[00:55:44] authority and keep in mind I'm an adult in this scenario um and I finally just like broke and I was like helped me then like I was I think I like sobbed it I was like helped me and she and then

[00:56:01] like everything changed in her demeanor and then she was just like very calm and very quiet and very cruel like it didn't it didn't fix that part she just got like like stone cold killer

[00:56:19] um and I I was so ashamed of myself in that moment because I made it through like my whole fucking childhood without doing that and it didn't happen it was very sick at the time to physically I was

[00:56:39] not very strong because of everything that was going on with my body and I think all of that played into it um but that was the only time I broke and it didn't last super long I think I think it took

[00:56:57] a couple of months from you realize I got sucked into the bullshit that I had like worked so hard because like that was the one period of my life where I tried to make the cult stuff work um so I

[00:57:10] had rejected it from a young age like this is bullshit this is nonsense this is a logical it doesn't make any sense what the fuck I mean I didn't know the word fuck back then but you know what I mean

[00:57:21] and and I made it all the way through until I was like mostly out of the house as an adult and then just just the psychological warfare that occurred at that point um because I had started

[00:57:42] talking about the abuse and stuff so they they crack down on me pretty hard um in terms of trying to continue to control me and yeah for for a couple months I like really tried to believe and buy

[00:58:00] into all the cult stuff um I think the whole rest of that school year into the summer and and then I had some friends who were like um you're like an adult and you can do what you

[00:58:18] want and I was like no I don't realize that um did that click with you like that I actually make a difference to you and they were like hey you're like legally you don't have to answer them anymore

[00:58:32] to that that's I mean it took a while it took months probably actually years of those sorts of conversations and then and then I started doing what I thought was the right

[00:58:46] thing before I was even ready to like that was the the time in my life I was like okay I'm going to move across the country and take a different job and um I'm going to do this

[00:58:58] and that to like try to create space and distance so like even though I hadn't fully like figured out my mental state I knew I wasn't in a safe place and I knew I needed to get away

[00:59:10] and so I started taking the steps to do that and it was very scary it was so scary and I spent most of my time convinced that God was going to curse me for being rebellious. So to that the

[00:59:29] option feel different so it sounds like you didn't you didn't believe the the fact that you were an adult and you didn't have to listen to them anymore but did the option of like well

[00:59:43] but I can take a job and move and that is an option that I actually have as opposed to just not listening to your parents was that is that how that played out in your head um

[00:59:56] where did you just play out like that? There were some of both um I could not be in even the same town as them without them actively controlling me including my ability to drive places

[01:00:16] so the job that I got across the country it was as a caretaker for an older woman it came with a place to live it came with a car like I had just gotten my driver's license finally they'd

[01:00:35] allowed me to get my driver's license um I was 20 almost 21 and yeah that it was like the only way out and I don't know if I even gave them the address initially oh yeah yeah and Rick eventually they

[01:00:58] started being kind of nicer to me and Chris when I left for that job wrote me this long weepy letter about how she'll always be my mother and love me so much I burned that by the way um because it was

[01:01:11] lies and true cult version and well first I hung on to it for years because I wanted to believe it was true um and then I burned a lot of their stuff after I reported my brother and they proved

[01:01:29] once and for all who they are um so eventually it got like things got to the point where like I allowed Rick to have dinner with me when he happened to be in that area for work

[01:01:44] I'm we went for a walk along the beach and he said you know Amanda I really wonder what you're gonna think of this time in your life when you look back on it someday well I have a great answer

[01:01:56] to that um now that was like 16 years ago um yeah when I think about that time of my life I'm like fuck I had to move across the country and move into someone's house to get away from them they were

[01:02:13] fucking awful how horrible that I had to move across the country to get away from my abusive family that's what I think of that time of my life what was he trying to say

[01:02:24] that I would look back and realize how rebellious I was and you know that the family how far you'd fall yes yes mm hmm well didn't work out Rick sorry about your problems but

[01:02:39] also not sorry this wow that's crazy so lots of therapy um I feel bad for my ex has been a little bit around this stuff because like we we kissed him and made out you know bit before we got married

[01:03:02] but like I had never lived with a man you know like because we didn't live together and I was very jumpy it was like very very jumpy and he never hit me or like he was never physically violent

[01:03:17] toward me but for months after we got married and he moved in with me I would flinch anytime you walk now up to me if you like raised his arm to give me a hug I would like both of my arms

[01:03:33] would go up in front of my face to block a hit like I was I was pretty messed up so you were like still conditioned to like your home environment yes because I wasn't like that

[01:03:53] in for instance my college dorm environment and stuff um I think it was specifically home and it was specifically there was a man in my home and after I got married and like back then

[01:04:11] I still was grappling with all the ideology but like as per the cult I was the property of my husband not the property of working Chris particularly Rick so it was like having that

[01:04:25] release from being the property of working Chris like unleashed all of the emotions that had been pent up in the fears and um that that took a minute I've mentioned before that healing from

[01:04:43] the physical abuse was like the easiest part of the whole journey um and I I stand by that to this day I mean I think it took less than six months and I had you know relaxed enough that

[01:04:59] I didn't go into a defense position if my extra had to hug me or walked toward me um but that was that was a really rough transition that I wasn't expecting.

[01:05:14] Well how did like I married? So you said you weren't expecting that like what was going through your head when you like you get into this new environment where you're living with somebody else

[01:05:25] that's not your family and and then you start having these kind of reactions that you weren't expecting like how did that? Well it wasn't cognitive at all it was like bodily instinct like I didn't think

[01:05:42] oh no what if you kids me it was like my body just interpreted someone moving toward me as I'm about to get hit. It's like a natural reaction. Yeah yeah that's a weird time. Yeah well that sounds

[01:06:01] horrible and probably very confusing to kind of live through and work through. I'm trying to remember if I ever did therapy like specifically around the physical violence

[01:06:14] I don't think I did I think it just kind of like came up from time to time and then I worked a lot of it out just not being hit for an extended period of time until it kind of subsided and

[01:06:31] think naming stuff is really important for me at least if I can identify like wow that was abusive blanket training is abusive hitting your six month old with glue sticks is the dumbest shit I've

[01:06:48] ever heard like that is so wrong for me for the way my brain works from my personality naming it and calling it out is very healing and it has a very powerful impact on me so I feel like that

[01:07:05] that's helped a lot over the last couple decades. I'm sorry I did go through all that it's thanks there's a lot in there. Zero stars do not recommend it. Yeah that's uh

[01:07:21] So I think the only thing we haven't touched on or maybe we did enough is the instant obedience. Oh yeah I think with thought it's it's mostly just the conditioning that you have to do everything

[01:07:35] you're told and it completely removes agency and critical thinking and having to regain that as an adult is a tedious process and that having that mentality like before you work through it in erratic

[01:07:53] headache and put you in some very unsafe situations because you're so conditioned to just like take whatever happens from anyone who claims to be an authority over you. Yeah. Wow so that was

[01:08:09] me that was a rough one. I figured I had a break there for a bit we did a lot of funny and laughing and pondering the complexities of the universe but yeah people been asking about that so there you go that's

[01:08:27] discipline and the cult. Well thanks for sharing that I know that was very hard on you and it takes a lot of courage to deep into those bad memories and you know share them.

[01:08:44] Don't hate your kids or the love of God and if you have but like say something about it to them like go back apologize let them see that you have remorse if you have behaved in an abusive way

[01:09:03] toward them and if you struggle with rage like find a different outlet. Well get help you know care about yourself enough to get help care about the people around you enough to get help

[01:09:20] there you don't have to live with rage you can work through whatever is causing the rage and move forward in a better way and something that breaks my heart. I was having dinner with a friend

[01:09:34] recently and she was like um her father had a stroke and it really changed this personality and now he's like so sweet and kind. Just like where was this man for the last so I wrote?

[01:09:47] I those stories break my heart like the terrible parent and then they're old and then suddenly they're nice because they realize their time on earth is limited in this life and they're like well

[01:09:59] I guess it better started to toning for my sins um like don't don't wait we don't have to wait we do not have to wait until we're staring down death to to make the changes necessary to be people folks will primarily have loving stories about

[01:10:27] instead of getting on a podcast and talking about abuse as their memories of you you know there's still time to fix it. Fix it. Young if you can. Well thanks again for sharing all of that and

[01:10:46] talking us through discipline and the cult um I know that was an easy and uh yeah I I'm sorry all that happened to you and that's what you had to deal with. There's a lot of that new to you

[01:11:03] um I would say most of that was new. How are you doing? Well it's you know it's hard to see you go back and pull those memories out because I know you've probably tucked them away in there

[01:11:23] because they're not pleasant memories so yeah it's hard to see you go in there but I know you're very courageous to you know say those things out loud let alone you know on a podcast that's out

[01:11:38] out there um so you know that that takes a lot of courage and strength and bravery to you know even share that kind of stuff so yeah I mean just thanks for sharing. Yeah you're welcome. And

[01:11:55] that wraps up our episode on discipline and the cult and the little things for listening that was probably a tough one. Yep. Oh we should tell folks um speaking of things for listening let me pull

[01:12:09] up the current stats I think we have listeners in 54 countries now let me look she's very excited about this. I love stats guys like the numbers just make my soul sing. She does she's just like

[01:12:25] constantly looking at it like she's not it's not a bad thing like she's just like we must get listens it's like she genuinely loves the numbers like a nerdy mathematician over there's like statistics are awesome. It's so true all right so our um current location count is

[01:12:47] 54 countries should we call out our top couple countries. Sure. Okay so I haven't looked at the I don't look at the stats so I'm not even sure what it what is it. You're seeing all the beautiful numbers. It's kind of okay I will look at the numbers

[01:13:06] for you all right so we're from the US so obviously the US is our largest listener base but them Canada the United Kingdom Australia New Zealand Ireland Germany the Netherlands Sweden and Austria

[01:13:25] Wow our top countries um well how many was that one two three four five six seven eight nine ten yeah and then should we just do a couple runner ups for fun um hello to Sweden Austria South Africa Switzerland Finland Panama Italy Israel Botswana Belgium Kenya Poland France

[01:13:50] and then the list goes on and I won't read them all but hi everyone thanks so much for listening that's crazy I know we're gonna have to go on a world wide tour just go visit all these places

[01:14:04] yeah just for fun gosh I would love to visit all these places look at there well if you want like extra homework um message us and tell us the best places to

[01:14:18] visit in your country and we'll put it on our list um yeah we do like the travel so I'm sure we'll get there we do we do so thanks again for listening everyone and uh we'll catch you next week

[01:14:34] thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind until next time don't join a cult if you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will catch you on the next episode