28 - Q&A Session #2

[00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to The Cult I Left Behind podcast. I'm your host Amanda Briggs and I'm here to tell you my stories of growing up in the IBLP cult with you might know from the dugger family

[00:00:15] And I'm your other host, Kyle Briggs. I'm Amanda's husband and I have not heard most of these stories before so stay tuned and we'll all get traumatized together All right, welcome back to the next episode. We are going into our second Q&A session

[00:00:37] Yep, I am excited about that. I always love the Q&A sessions and we've got a handful tonight Mooting voice messages. Yes, we do have them on the website. Yep, got voice messages

[00:00:50] I am excited. I'm also exhausted because I hate the time change every spring when we leap forward I need that to go away. We were told that was going to go away

[00:01:01] The daylight savings thing. He just had them moved to Arizona isn't it too bad? I really want to move to Arizona Maybe one day you won't have to deal with the lights. Oh, man But if y'all are there with me we got this right more coffee

[00:01:18] Yes seven o'clock at night more come So we're starting so first up you've got a question from Kim oh Okay, all right, so are we gonna address all of the Religion and cult questions first because we have a handful of those

[00:01:40] From the episode we did with Tim Wittaker last year about our all religions cults and like Kyle how deep down this rabbit What are we going because I've been on a whole journey since that like a whole journey

[00:01:54] It's a whole thing if you want to give an update on your change the opinion this Yes, all religions are cults the end Yeah, not the beauty of you know having your voice and your ideas on the internet is that you can change them Like everyone

[00:02:11] Hold her feet to the fire for it. Yes, you're my well, see I think that that's a sign of growth I think if we are unwilling to Learn new data and adapt to it when necessary We become stagnant and people being stagnant isn't a good thing

[00:02:28] So without going into all of the nuts and bolts of the situation I am at this point pretty solidly on the side of the fence that thinks religions are basically cults the bite model that we talked about in the NLM

[00:02:50] Episode had some stuff to do with that book side read had some stuff to do with that more research Because why not research everything had some stuff to do with that

[00:03:00] But let's let's read these questions and if you want more information on why I changed my mind or the details of what I think now Let us know maybe we'll do a separate episode for like said has nothing to do with the IVLP

[00:03:12] Okay, so first I wanted just to read a comment we got from a listener named a Janice Without this was fascinating She said cult plus time equals religion and I feel like we should have a mic drop moment there

[00:03:31] Think about it though cult plus time it develops that you know mysticism and Or a rounded of of holiness because the back then times And that turns into a religion. I mean it makes sense I mean, I feel like the and the converse side of that

[00:03:50] There are a lot of things that start off as good ideas and become radicalized So it makes sense that it could the opposite would also be true is it some radical things end up being

[00:04:01] Turned into mainstream and I'm sure there are people who would listen and say well Religion like genuine faith in God plus time equals cult

[00:04:11] You know like it gives people time to radicalize it and you know all of those things so I I suppose you could mic drop that either way But I really thought that was a pretty interesting observation that

[00:04:23] A cult following plus time can definitely turn into a religion and that's not just Jesus and Christianity That's that's all religions So listen or Katie who originally had this question What are your thoughts because

[00:04:38] Your your question is still going and we're still thinking about it and people are still listening to that episode and And having thoughts about it So then we had a question from a listener named Kim who said even though Jesus never claimed to be a leader in the

[00:04:53] Colty sense in his time I think people made him that which is also an interesting question. Can you become an accidental cult leader or cult These days I would say yes I would say yes you can absolutely accidentally become a

[00:05:10] Colt leader or a cult like I said in the episode last year I think Jesus as a as a person was a pretty cool dude if the stories We've been told about him our true I like that he was ahead of his time and how he

[00:05:27] Treated people particularly People with illnesses People who had the the great calamity of being women Like that part but there are other there are other books that were never made Part of scripture that talk a lot about Jesus as a person and have other

[00:05:51] Information and other ideas about him and if you look at again I know I've talked about this in the past The politics that went into shaping the Bible as we know it within Protestantism today I mean it was a bunch of dudes who had political agendas

[00:06:09] Who were like yep this this suits my agenda let's add this and I spent an enormous amount of my life in the circles that with we claim you know every word of God

[00:06:22] Or every word of scripture is god breathe and it was the wind the Holy Spirit was the wind that like moved The writer is like wind and sails and and all of that and I just I don't

[00:06:34] By it anymore I can't buy it anymore for a lot of reasons but To Kim's point yes, I think you absolutely can accidentally become that if people radicalize you can Absolutely accidentally become a colt leader or a colt if people watch on to and radicalize your Ideologies

[00:06:56] I mean Kyle we could become accidental We're just that cool oh yeah, and funny well what I was gonna say is That even in like corporate America or maybe this is just corporations like you can get some of these

[00:07:11] I mean there's jokes about it that you know that there's a company's like Google or whatever that are cults because Yes, like they're You know there's a

[00:07:23] Big culture behind that and if and if at the top of all that if there's a figure ahead then like you can get into these situations and I that's probably why people make jokes about You know some of these organizations being cults

[00:07:39] So I think they're some truth to it Yeah, so while while we're not the reigning experts on all things religion I do think To your question Kim that yes, you can accidentally become a colt but you look at people like Bill Gothard

[00:07:57] There that was not an accident that was like an intentional step by step process to gain a following and to brainwash the following and to control the followers and and if we go back to Jesus

[00:08:10] And if the stories we have about him are true like he was like hey if you follow me you're probably gonna die He wasn't he wasn't out there promising people wealth and blessings. He was like yeah

[00:08:20] What I what I'm teaching is pretty counter cultural right now and politically risky so I don't know if he was I wouldn't say Jesus was like trying to create a cult following as much as people Radicalized his beliefs into what we know today

[00:08:38] What are your thoughts on that? All right, I think that's a fair assessment. I feel like he had good ideas and You know I mean it's just like anything else someone's got an idea like hey, I don't you know I don't like this thing

[00:08:55] Daily say it's time. Yeah, like let's do something else and then you get enough other people that agree with you And you naturally get a following and then it just goes okay everyone we are starting a cult

[00:09:06] It's a really good cult for the sake of humanity called can we please quit this old daylight saving time thing Please please please please please please. I don't want to change my clock choice here and mess up my sleep schedule this bad

[00:09:19] It's official where a cult oh good Kyle you are my first follower Did you feel the expression do you feel the impression am I pressing you Daylight saving save these times depressing Depressing me. Oh, there's that too. All right, so next up we've got a voice mail from

[00:09:44] Listener Christina. So let's see what Christina has to say Hi I'm Manjong Kyle my name is Christina I'm an avid listener. I love your podcast I really like the conversation you have going on right now Our all religions cults. I grew up

[00:10:01] Roman Catholic and there were some things I loved about it some things I gained from it and other things I question along the way and still now in my adult life Pretty much the same path for my husband, but we've decided to raise our kids Catholic

[00:10:18] And there are some things that sometimes we look at each other and say This is a little culty So I kind of want to know your feelings on can you be part of a Religion or a cult and maybe not buy into it 100%

[00:10:36] And still be in the safe zone and maybe reap some benefits Really curious to hear your opinion on this Thanks so much. Okay, I love this question Kyle do you want to go first or should I go first? Okay, okay, okay

[00:10:51] Bottom line yes, I think you can knowingly choose to participate in something that maybe isn't Holistically healthy, but it has some really good components and if you are aware of an intentional about that I think it can be a totally okay thing so for instance like

[00:11:08] Oh, I don't always agree with how the church goes about it but one thing the church is really good at is instilling a moral compass in in children So I think that characters important. I think integrity is important. I think truth and honesty are important

[00:11:25] And I think that a lot of religious environments at least in like Protestantism and Catholicism I can't speak for all the other religions because I don't actually know that much about them But I do know that there is a very strong moral compass that is usually taught in

[00:11:43] You know Sunday school and youth group and in those sorts of things And I do think that's helpful. I don't always love the health iron brimstone That accompanies that ideology But I think if parents are actively involved in their children's lives and they're kind of monitoring

[00:12:02] What their children are ingesting about religion and what they're being told about God and if they're growing up in a fear-based ideology versus I want to I want to be good to people because that's a good thing to do sort of ideology

[00:12:19] Yeah, I think you can I think you can Consciously participate in something that might be You know kind of cold tea. I would like I hope I don't offend all of our Catholic listeners I would say Catholicism is a little cold tea to me just in general

[00:12:35] My grandparents the ones with whom I was close growing up they're about Catholics I went to mass with them. I don't know why it was a lot to go to mass with them. I mean I got that's

[00:12:45] Reef, you know, that's new seed. Oh really? Okay good you're still learning new things. I mean I would get anyone who went to mass with the grandparents like we had to get told how evil it was

[00:12:56] And then we had to go home and talk about it and like cleanse From you know that you see we experienced attending mass But yeah, I was sometimes a lot to go my grandparents church had a music director who really liked my singing

[00:13:11] And wouldn't bite me to sing there so sometimes I'd go for that reason Other times it was just I don't know cuz we were spending time with the grandparents So there were things I saw that even apart from being told that was it was bad

[00:13:24] I was a little like who about? I've never been a fan of trans-advocation which is that Jesus like genuinely becomes or the the bread and grape juice or bread and wine like actually is Jesus I've just never considered myself a cannibal So

[00:13:44] I'm just I'm not willing to go there folks like I'm not willing to go there Can't do it and You know other stuff around that But but I do know that There is some good in terms of teaching people about Right and wrong and consequences and

[00:14:06] Our motivation for doing stuff so yeah, I think if you're very aware and you know what's weird and colty and you're Explaining that to your kids and you're explaining to them like hey we go to church because I want you to learn

[00:14:20] Next-wise eat we go to church because I want you to You know socialize with other kids whose parents care about You know their kids making good decisions and you know stuff like that. I think I think you can leverage it I think you can use it

[00:14:35] in a healthy way as long as You're honest with yourself about the level of like coltiness that is around what do you think how I mean? I think it's an excellent question And I mean short answers yes, I think you can do that and I say that because

[00:14:53] That was me You're like you're saying you can have association with link religion and just be aware of it. Yes, okay

[00:15:02] Because that's what I did like I grew up in a Baptist church and you know every denomination of Christianity is a little different they have their different tastes on stuff

[00:15:13] And I would even say like down to the church you're specifically at they have their own flavor of things that are shameful things that they Condone and don't condone Don't have sex might lead And for me the the the thing that I didn't agree with

[00:15:34] As I started getting older starting getting into like young adult years it was like You must not you will not live with a girl before you get married and I was just like that sounds like a dumb idea Like if I'm gonna be stuck with this person forever

[00:15:54] Like you know what I mean like if I'm gonna be living with this person forever I want to see what day-to-day life looks like like do they Or like because the Holy Spirit will help you get through the moment. I did not buy that

[00:16:09] I was like it didn't that low and behold that in divorce After after doing it the perfect way It's good point

[00:16:17] So yeah, I mean that was the thing that I really like latched on to was like you know all this other stuff makes sense and I and I You know agree with the morals that they instill in in church I enjoyed the

[00:16:31] Community that was there they were generally all good people sure there was like in fighting and you know All kinds of abuse about Music Music was Caribou like these are literally the fights that yeah, I'm sure everybody can relate if they've been to church long enough

[00:16:53] The same church like you know what we're talking about there's some sort of In fighting that's happening over something stupid. It's completely not even religious But anyways like so yeah, I like it If there's good ideas there that you want to take and

[00:17:13] There's other things that you don't agree with I think that's what the point of discernment is is that you can be a part of that However, however I have thoughts keep going I was also fully aware

[00:17:29] And I think you have to be prepared for the shame that we'll go with that. You're going like if you decide like You know what I know they tell everybody here you cannot drink drinking is evil and Satanic or whatever however they want to pitch it and if

[00:17:50] You're comfortable going out and having a drink With your friends On Friday night And you don't see any problem with that. I don't think you should be just blindly listening to like What is being said at church because that's what they said

[00:18:09] Like I think you you have your own discernment in your own Values that you want to keep to and you do what feels right to you and so You know as someone that grew up For the most part entirely in Baptist churches

[00:18:28] There's stuff that I've kept to this day and there's other things that I definitely just left behind And I feel no remorse about that

[00:18:37] Okay, so this is oh I have more thoughts how nerdy do we want to get answered this question because I can go down this rabbit hole Yeah, plenty it's okay. So the other thing that I would say and response to all of this is

[00:18:52] pulling that shame threat uh yeah the shame thread because a lot of Well, let me back up one of the things I said as positive is you know it instills it or attending church can't instill that sense of Moral compass and conscience as you grow up

[00:19:09] Hard stop the shame thing is for real and that impacts attachment style to like if you have An anxious attachment style with the deity you believe in How's your attachment style with everyone else in your life gonna be Probably pretty fucked up too

[00:19:29] So I think that it's something you really do have to think about especially with young children They're so freaking impressionable and If they are in an environment that's you know the health fire brimstone angry god blessings curses

[00:19:44] I mean, you don't even you don't have to be in the IBLP cult to get that I mean pick a church on Sunday morning a lot of them are

[00:19:51] Or say in that and I know there are some that don't but a lot do and if you if you grow up in that Environment like I guess I'd ask people real quick just do a survey within yourself and let us know

[00:20:05] What's your attachment style like as an adult? Do you have anxious attachment? Issues now because you grew up a Frayed of the almighty god Interesting interesting little research project, you know just a casual Tuesday And the other thing I would say about that is

[00:20:32] So like I've listened to a bunch of Jordan Peterson stuff The guy reads everything controversial dude. Yes, he is he is He's like so right about some stuff and like so wrong about some other stuff it's he's

[00:20:46] What what I like about him though is he pulls he reads everything. I don't to me. I don't feel like he's Like just Solidly in like one camp and that's all he preaches. I feel like he's he reads materials from You know

[00:21:04] Everything everywhere everything everywhere the good the bad the ugly and then like he takes all the information into then forms his own hypothesis Which in life yeah, so I feel like that's kind of the same thing with church like if you want to go to this church

[00:21:18] Go to a Baptist church on on this Sunday in the next Sunday go to a Catholic church and the next Sunday go You know visit and attend You know go to the mosque and see what they're saying like

[00:21:31] Okay, have an interesting to see like what like what opinion would you come out with if you went and attended all these different religions and red all of their books?

[00:21:41] Like what what would you say and I feel like especially in Christian culture you don't do that you don't do that You get introduced a one One Bible In jeans for normally yeah, you get introduced to one religion and that's it You never really go explore

[00:21:58] Can associate with that evil in this Kyle? I guess I don't know Okay, so here's here's another question I have just because This is how my brain works. Why do we need religion to be good people?

[00:22:12] Like why do we need the fear the threat the confines the guidance of religion to have a Moral code That works like why because a lot of people I think fall back on that like some people

[00:22:29] I think do have the whole all right we're unholy people. We need to holy God the whole Penal substitutionary tone mint thing Where Jesus died to take all of our sins so that now even if we sin he paid for it already So yay we go to heaven

[00:22:48] Okay, so quick that's your theology lesson so if Like why do we need that? Why do we need Other than that like let's let's say you believe in a tone mint and we need that to go to heaven But like why do we need

[00:23:05] The what is it emboing those like rails the bumper rails or whatever like why do we need religion to make those bumpers for us? Why can't we just want to be good people apart from a deity?

[00:23:20] I think people do that naturally without religion and I think if you go back and study ancient cultures Like native like ancient native I would maybe not native Americans but like you know you study Or if you do any research on

[00:23:38] Like the Incas and the Maya's and the Aztecs like all so many gods so many well, but they like yeah like weird That's a human fact Yeah, they come up with they come up with these things and I think people just naturally will create the

[00:23:54] A culture and that culture is gonna contain some sort of moral code And I think that's always That it seems like that's always tied to a deity though. It wasn't a person though In those cultures and you're seeing Jesus was Part human part god

[00:24:13] That whole thing full human fully god I just mean it's different in this sense that it wasn't around a person so Yeah, maybe it was still a religion

[00:24:23] Oh, you know what I'm saying though like it's just it's like I think if you put 10 people in a room and you wipe the face of the planet off And you say I'm dropping 10 people here eventually they're gonna come up with a moral code

[00:24:36] The usually gonna be based on a deity. I think it would happen without that You think they would get a moral code apart from a deity. Yes. I think I think I think it's most prevalent with religion

[00:24:51] But I I've that's the social experiment. I think I would try to run this is Like the old 10 babies put him in a room so they grow up We're not stealing any babies I just I that's my belief. I think people would just naturally create

[00:25:08] moral codes and I think you see that in in in the workplace You see that in the military You see that in any sort of organized group is not even religious that like they create a culture and they create you know rituals they create initiation tasks

[00:25:29] Like those things just happen outside of religion right but the reason I think it will always come back to some sort of deity Even if you put 10 people in a box like you just have to look at the night sky and I think most of us

[00:25:44] We're like they're like they're there. I know I think because there is a higher power And I think we all come to this planet with a piece of that in us like we each

[00:25:58] We each come with some innate knowledge of something bigger than us that were part of And I think we look around the world and we see reminders of that and it it calls us to something higher. It calls us to something bigger and

[00:26:18] So I think that's why it's always gonna come back to a religion and then the hard thing is when you give people Like when they when people decide that they are the mouthpiece of that deity Shit hits the fucking fan like that's where it goes south

[00:26:35] It's when humans with their agendas decide like I'm speaking for God now That everything goes crazy because if it's just you you are the only person on the planet

[00:26:46] You're in a field at night. You're looking up. You see the stars. You look around your like holy shit. This is amazing Something did this and I'm I'm part of that something That's pretty safe like that's a pretty healthy organic reaction to observing

[00:27:06] I would say the power of deity that we see just in the planet in nature in life But you put more than one person in that field. Now you have a power dynamic now one person wants to be in charge of the other person

[00:27:22] And I think that when people try to grab power at the end of it all they go to well What's the biggest baddest thing? I can pull to say it's on my side and I'm right Ding ding ding deity

[00:27:38] So that's where I think that's where I think things get really messed up. I think it's I think when people decide that they are the mouthpiece of God and They are trying to control other people

[00:27:53] And there's a power dynamic. There's a political agenda something like that. That's where I think everything goes off the rails And I think it's been off the rails since The beginning of time I think people have been using This concept of deity that we all in needly know

[00:28:12] to manipulate, to coerce, to control As long as there's been more than one person in that field Okay, what's your face right now? I mean I feel like we go all day on this I think it is interesting and I think it's interesting that I feel like ancient

[00:28:37] Ancient people had a very different idea and I think once once the The concept of a deity was introduced The world forever changed Because I you know, I watch a lot of history channel Like

[00:28:56] And I'm not an expert but there are ancient cultures where they worship animals or Mother Earth itself and I don't feel like those words you it is like a deity as much Not not its traditional sense

[00:29:09] They were an influencer like you could pray to the God the rain God for rain Right or or you could have an orgy so that the gods would have sex in their population would see be There are some people

[00:29:22] I'm still traumatized from that thank you moody Bible Institute never gonna get over that one That It was a very weird one. I was quite surprised when you brought that up the first time I heard it I was like that's a little weird Okay, based on Christina's question

[00:29:42] I have a question for you Okay, we have kids if we ever adopt do you want to raise the min church? I don't know that I know the answer to that yet It was an absolute no

[00:29:55] Well, I mean like I mean like we've pointed out in this like there are good parts of it and There are parts of it you know we don't go to church. I haven't been to church and quite some time and there are parts of it I do miss

[00:30:10] But at the same time, I'm there's parts of it. I think are very toxic and I don't miss that part of it and I got very jaded at the end around

[00:30:19] How much politics and fighting that went into it? And I was just like what are we even doing here like this? My pet peeve is like the huge multi million dollar facilities and people are starving in the parking lot

[00:30:36] I'm in store. Yeah, now when really pisses me off. Yeah, I Towards the end of my time going to church. I started going to churches that I I was specifically picking the in-based off of what

[00:30:49] They're doing with their money. That's smart and I felt a lot better about that and I felt better going to church and giving money To that cause because I felt like you're doing something That

[00:31:03] Matters you're not just building a new building to have the fancy as light show like I went to a church where The guy who ran the sound and the lighting system used to do it for arrows smithom was a fucking concert And it was amazing

[00:31:18] But what is that way? Good there. I mean, I feel like a lot of people were there and it's hard to discern between are you there because you want to go to a concert or you there because of what you're singing about

[00:31:31] And it was really hard to tell sometimes So I think I think where I get stuck is everything that comes with that moral code Mm-hmm and just Gosh if I had kids, I think one of my biggest goals as a parent other than making sure they knew

[00:31:52] They were unconditionally loved and that They get to be a kid and I'll be the parent and they don't have to be an adult yet Is not Living a fear-based life And and at the moment and I like y'all

[00:32:07] I have been so many freaking churches. I have attended them. I have gone and observed them for classes like I did the thing Kyle talked about like Catholic church when we brought us in church the next week Mosk then it like I did that for classes

[00:32:20] I have never encountered a religious environment That didn't use Shame and fear tactics in some Way shaper form. I believe that and I don't think we should do the right thing because we're scared of God I think we should do the right thing because something

[00:32:41] In us calls to us to be the best highest version of ourselves and and because it's just the fucking right thing to do to not steal and murder and rape and

[00:32:51] You know all that stuff pillage. I think I think that I think that it actually produces better people Better citizens of earth if If we go through the messy phases people of like Figuring out our moral code and and not having to be a good person because

[00:33:14] God might send us to burn and a pit of flames for eternity like Like is that actually? I just I don't I don't buy it. I don't buy it. I would rather be kind in loving

[00:33:28] Because it it serves society and people around me and me for me to be kind in loving So you don't want to make the most of this life because the rapture's coming Well, okay, so I don't believe in the rapture but also

[00:33:45] What was really fun at the moody babble institute after I was married of course because I was married my last year Was to make sure the other married students like I had a joke like have more sex the raptures coming or something like that

[00:33:58] And I was it was very inappropriate of me to even say the word sex even though I was married Now I was saying it to married people But you know see I can be fun. Oh, oh, I go Did not expect that

[00:34:12] They're fun. I don't know what you're talking about. So that was the long way around And so I'm sorry my question. Can you get anything good out of church? Yeah

[00:34:23] MPD and I think I think yeah, I think it's it's very dependent on the environment and very dependent on your awareness level And just making sure that you're actually the one leading in shaping your children instead of Health-wiron brimstone

[00:34:40] And in teaching them what to do with health-wiron brimstone because you're not I don't know of any religious environment where you're totally gonna get away from that Yeah, I agree. I don't think Shame and guilt or fear are good

[00:34:56] reasons to adopt an ideology or a belief system or a moral compass So that I guess that's my my short answer. You don't want to know if I want to raise our kids in church I feel like I know the answer to this question but please elaborate

[00:35:14] No, I don't I don't want to raise kids in church. I would I think it's really important to have like minded community So I would I would probably try to Create that with other families with other parents Outside of a church setting I like that's a good idea

[00:35:36] Hmm But not a cult we're not starting a cult don't join cult people Even ours that we're not starting We must change time Amanda. Oh, wait. Yeah, please do join that cult We'll call it a petition Uh-huh Gonna start to go fund me Ha

[00:36:00] All right next up. We've got another voice mail from listener Laura so let's see what Laura has to say Amanda and Kyle Hi my name is Laura I'm on episode 15 of your podcast and I would say I'm mesmerized at this point

[00:36:21] Um, so many questions but the biggest question I have is is your around your parents and your family How did they how did they get into the cult and How did your extended family deal with you and your siblings and your parents as

[00:36:46] the family different and the rest of the family and and why would you say there's no intervention or I don't know differentiation from family members and you and you had said that you were Friends again with your uncle for a fair short period of time but

[00:37:06] All of that is where my question lies and I'm probably not Stating it very clearly But I'm super curious about your family and how you got there and and why no one intervened Great podcast

[00:37:23] Thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry you went through all of that take care No, that was that was perfectly clear All right so great questions number one how did the bios get into the cult number two

[00:37:37] What did the relatives think of us is the weird cult family? And number three why didn't the relatives intervene? How did I get all of them? Okay Where did it start? How did they get into the cult?

[00:37:52] The truth is I don't know. I'm not I don't have crystal clear memories on how Rick and Chris got involved. I know they had these friends from way back when who were also involved in the cult

[00:38:08] Fun fact there are sons did some pretty similar stuff to one of their daughters So I don't know if there was like a freaked out parent powwow like that's all speculation I think we were we were solidly in the cult before

[00:38:23] My brother started raping me from from what I like remember of Children's Institute and stuff we were in the cult already So I think I think it was probably like a combination of Build-a-Third stuff was kind of out there in the religious world and I think

[00:38:46] I think these friends of working Chris is Either got into it first or They got into it together or something like that, but I don't totally know What I do know is that Ricking Chris are two of the most fearful people I've ever encountered in my life

[00:39:05] And something we've talked about on this podcast is cults Coles attract Fearful people because it offers them a black and white way of living where you will absolutely succeed in God will definitely bless you

[00:39:19] If you do everything right the way I say and I am Bill Gothard so say it or sir do so do it the way I say to do it So I think that's probably why they were so at risk

[00:39:32] In terms of being sucked into a cult they were just very fearful people All right, so that's that's part one to the best of my ability I wish I had a better answer but I don't really feel like calling working Chris and asking them

[00:39:49] How did their relatives handle this? I think they thought we were really fucking weird I Think there were some things they didn't know what to what to do Or how to help or what to think because on one hand

[00:40:04] You know, I have my grandma and my aunt so Chris is mom and and her older sister who were like You know evil femin Nazis, you know that's what I was told growing up They probably just thought women should have like equal rights and pay

[00:40:21] And that made them femin Nazis to Rick and Chris, but whatever I know they were very concerned about the toll it was taking on Chris's body to reproduce at the rate She did I Know that I had two aunts so my

[00:40:41] Biological mothers older sister and then her sister in law want to for younger brothers wives. They were both educators So I think there was some pretty significant concern about like the Louis kids getting a proper education

[00:40:56] And here's here's the funny thing like we didn't get a proper education but part of the cult Thing was this like intense work ethic So we all pretty much for the most part had these astounding work ethics and

[00:41:13] We had enough perfection and perfectionism drilled into us by Rick and the cult that like When when the rules changed and we were allowed to go to college like we all knew how to bust our asses to get good grades So like I think

[00:41:29] I don't know if all my siblings finished college because I'm not in touch with them, but like I think the ones that did go to college

[00:41:36] Did well like I think the ones that did take a standardized test the ACT that SAT like we didn't bomb them or anything and So I think the family was very confused by that because they didn't know

[00:41:50] They didn't totally know what to do with it like well, they should fail but like They're still getting decent grades and they got into college Um I genuinely attribute that to like the cult instilled work ethic and

[00:42:06] The cult instilled perfectionism and like fear of Rick who said we had to get ace Bees mean you didn't try hard enough and sees are unacceptable Which I have so many thoughts about not educating your children properly and then you know demanding that of them

[00:42:25] Also not paying for their education, but I digress They were also I think the relatives were concerned about our relationships I think they were concerned about the courtship thing They were concerned about all of us marrying for the most part our first boyfriend or girlfriend because courtship

[00:42:50] Trying to think what else I know they thought you know that we dressed weird Because the girls were in long skirts I know I think they knew about Bill Gothard a bit because he was kind of well known particularly in the 90s

[00:43:09] I know they hated how much Rick and Chris tried to proselytize Like we couldn't just go to family events and like quietly disagree We had to stand alone for Christ Kyle because we had to

[00:43:22] Even if I'm taking on the uncles about which movie they were watching it, you know Thanksgiving after dinner We couldn't just like exist in the same orbit. We had to like violently oppose it for Jesus And I think that got kind of annoying for everyone to have

[00:43:40] ideology shoved down their throats Yeah, I mean I was kind of I was about to say it sounds like you guys were well behaved enough and well-edged Enough or at least appeared to be that way and you acted Properly in public settings

[00:43:59] That you probably slid under the radar of like there's something weird going on here But it sounds like at the same time when family events happened like the Proselytizing was still there so they had to have at least known there's some weird Religious thing going on yeah, yeah

[00:44:21] So I think they thought it was weird, but they were also like well Yeah, you can do your own thing. I know that my grandpa so Chris is died would at times get in fights with Rick about the number of children and

[00:44:37] Like being able to appropriately provide for them And they would yell and scream at each other In the backyard usually Yeah, I mean it's a great question because I feel like there was probably enough red flags that you would think someone would say something

[00:44:55] But I can understand it like you don't really have any control there if you're just like there's a lot of weird things happening over there But they're not my kids like yeah, what can I do?

[00:45:06] And you have to think about who's being oppressed in that environment. It was primarily me and my sisters And and what were good young women in the cult train to do shut up smile and take it ministry smile bright eyes like we were

[00:45:24] We were very good at presenting that that poised front of like while we're We're highly skilled musicians and we go on missions trips or you know whatever it was at the time choir tour So so really I think a lot of that really fell on

[00:45:48] Like it was primarily the girls who were being harmed. It was the girls who were running the house hold his children the girls who were raising the children as children The girls who were basically the stand-in moms because Chris was absent

[00:46:03] So and then I was being sexually assaulted and and more than anything The cult taught girls to just be silent smile and take it So I think we were unwitting ambassadors for you know, breaking Chris's way of doing things because you know we turned out okay

[00:46:29] Um particularly the girls we We were the ones who were most harmed by the system and you know we all succeeded in life to varying levels A lot I could say about that but I mean it really just depends on if you know

[00:46:47] Giving up your career because your husband doesn't want you to work with men Because you're married to him now like if you if you view that is success then yes We were all quite successful. It's I mean it's a great question and I

[00:47:07] It's a question that I would like ask or I do ask myself like if I saw something weird happening with anybody or so you know some kids and we haven't I don't feel like I've really had That opportunity yet because I feel like that's something you you mostly

[00:47:24] In this instance get into when it's like your kids is friends like okay, so maybe I'm just weird But like I have no qualms with that like I have gone to parents because they're young children said something to me

[00:47:36] That indicated they were probably being sexually assaulted potentially by A sibling yeah like I've done that. It's not super comfortable but like I will do it and I think I think that that's

[00:47:49] Something that we don't really know how to do very well as people like when do I say something Is it gonna embarrass is it gonna ruin the relationships and I think I think there is a line and there is wisdom and discernment

[00:48:02] But I think that a good parent is never going to excommunicate you because you love and are concerned about their kid If they excommunicate you because you're concerned about their kid there is probably something going on that they don't want getting out Um And I know you

[00:48:25] You've been in that situation one time Well, I mean, that's what it is like That was more of my question was like how many red flags do you have to see and what where? I mean obviously some red flags are bigger than others

[00:48:41] But in this in this instance in your childhood growing up in the cult like Did everybody just think okay? Well, they're into some weird religious stuff and they just chalked it off is that

[00:48:54] I think so and I think the other thing is like it's not fun. It's intimidating It's energy draining like there are a lot of reasons not to say something and some of it's just like It's just it's so human to be like God

[00:49:06] I don't want to be wrong and like embarrass myself or embarrass them unnecessarily like that is so human Um, and I and I get that and I've been there and I've done that and I think that Getting to the part like why didn't anyone intervene?

[00:49:26] I think the reason was By the time the relatives knew something was going on Like Chris is Chris was just a bully to them from from what I heard and She shut them down and told them you know not to

[00:49:44] Talk to me because it might encourage me to go to the police and And I vehemently disagree with my aunts and uncles and grandparents for Lighting her bulldoze them like that. I think they should have been like fuck you Chris

[00:49:59] We're gonna walk a man to the sheriff's department. We're gonna hold her hand through the whole fucking thing Fuck you like I think that would have been I know I said that pretty aggressively, but I think that would have been a more loving thing to do

[00:50:11] Then just cow tout her and be like okay, well it's your family so we'll just be quiet And we'll just hide over here in the corner and you guys do you hope it goes well have fun storming the castle quote princess bride

[00:50:25] I think you go storm the fucking castle when it needs to happen and And there's someone who like does that for a living it's it's not easy It's not easy to be the truth teller in the situation. It's not easy to bear the brunt of someone's outrage

[00:50:43] That you would You know Bring something like that up or or assume that someone, you know, they love like their their spouse their kid whatever Could do such a horrible thing But generally what I would say

[00:51:00] Well no one asks the question but hey guess what I'm gonna tell you anyways because that's what I do If you ever have a feeling in your gut that's something's wrong. You are probably right You are probably right and even if the whole thing blows up

[00:51:15] It is probably worth saying something because I swear to God If I were to get a phone call from my estranged aunt tomorrow and she was like Amanda I need you to know when you were a kid like I fucking went to a raking Chris because I knew

[00:51:30] Something was off with you and I tried honey and they just They shut me down. They said they were never gonna let you around me again

[00:51:36] And I decided to stay in your life because I love you and I wanted to be a safe person even though I couldn't know it was going on Like that would change that would change everything for me That would change at all in one minute

[00:51:49] I would have a different perspective on life So even if nothing comes of it in the moment like that person hopefully is gonna grow up And they're gonna live to adulthood and you can circle back and tell them like I

[00:52:03] Love you and I knew something was wrong and I tried and it didn't work out So I kept quiet so like it'd be here today when you turned 18 to tell you like I know something's wrong What's going on? I'm here. So

[00:52:19] Yeah, if if your gut ever tells you something's wrong something's probably wrong. It is worth trying to intervene And if it doesn't work Okay, like your wounds and

[00:52:33] Wait until that person's old enough to have a conversation without their parents involved and see if you can be a support person for them at that time Educational moment with Amanda

[00:52:45] I got nothing else to go on top of that you do this professionally for a living and I have nothing Nothing better to add to that so oh Should we tell the people the news? Go for the happiness

[00:52:58] I am getting a PhD in community health education it is a public health degree I'm very excited. I have been threatening to get a PhD for like a very very long time I think I started talking about this in 2008

[00:53:15] finished grad school in like 2016 and then I went into the military and after I got out of the military It was like fucking it's time Wow so Just brace yourselves because education moments with Amanda might become a more consistent thing I will be

[00:53:33] Researching gender-based violence and things like that Which is shocking to everyone. I know But I'll probably I'll just I'll just keep having more and more to say about this so stick around and Let me know if you want to be research subjects

[00:53:49] We can be nerds together, but not a cult All right, did I answer the question it was okay so how do they get involved? unsure have some ideas what did it happen? I think I think we're all we're real weird and why didn't they intervene?

[00:54:09] I think they were cowardly and I think Chris was a bully I think the other thing I'll add to that is in the shrenny happy people doc you series

[00:54:17] You see the cousin say the same thing about the dugers and she was just like we just thought they were weird Like I very like vividly remember her saying that and I could I can understand why that's as far as they went is it just like Their strange

[00:54:35] But I think that's all I've seen Yeah, just that they're strange and so you just leave it at that and I think we're that ends And you see this and in shiny happy people as well when the truth comes out about the crime You saw Jim Bob's sister

[00:54:52] I think that's who it was and her daughter who were like fuck to the no Yeah, this is not just weird anymore. This is criminal

[00:54:59] And so we can give my relatives a pass until they found out about the crimes and then they should have had the same reaction of fuck to the no reciting with the victim here Go fuck yourself Chris

[00:55:13] And they didn't which is why I would say that you know part of the blame is on Chris because she's a bully and and Maybe equal or more blame is on them because they were grown acid ults

[00:55:23] They were not children. They were in there like 456 days at the time And had a lot of education around these issues not not enough because it's never enough not tons But like as educators and stuff like that Some of them definitely had more than the average person

[00:55:43] And they still didn't do the right thing. They still didn't stand with me Which I think is cowardly so Yeah, weird until they knew about the crime Right then that's just a total to me That is a totally different scenario in terms of intervention and responsibility and

[00:56:06] What is right? Yeah, and like you said they played out differently in that family. Oh, yeah Yeah, like you know that lady in her husband We're definitely just like no we're not like oh in the docky series yeah

[00:56:19] Like as soon as the news came out like they're everything changed for them and they were just like okay This is not strange anymore. There's bad things going on and like I feel like they responded

[00:56:31] From what we can see they responded better. Yes, yeah, yeah, so and we're hearing their version of it The victims version of it, but yeah like from what they said and I mean I'll give them this they they went on the record like

[00:56:46] On the worldwide web that they disagreed with Jim Bob and Michelle And they put that very vehemently and I don't I don't have any of my relatives on the worldwide web saying Right can Chris you done fucked up. How could you we stand with Amanda? So

[00:57:07] Hey, if any of my relatives ever do go on the worldwide web Please say just like that right can Chris you done fucked up Or you could make it even better and be like a a Ron done fucked up or how it was like Oh, no

[00:57:21] I have fun with it. Oh, yep What's the point of having trauma if you can't laugh at it a little bit All right so on to the last question last question got a question from Samantha

[00:57:39] Yes, okay, so Samantha says so you talk about working Chris and call them your bio parents Which typically implies you have adoptive parents? I know that you do and you've probably mentioned them on the podcast My question is when did your adoptive parents come into the picture?

[00:57:53] Are they people that you met and came into your life and you just had such a bond with that they kind of adopted you under their family Or are they another relative of your birth parents that took you in an advocated for you?

[00:58:06] Also was there ever ever a legal adult adoption that took place with them or is it just the their your parents? And there's absolutely no need for any sort of legal documentation because you're an adult and they just are your parents Okay, so

[00:58:23] The folks I call mom and dad now are not related to me by blood and anyway we met through the military I owned a business before I commissioned a consulting business and it got hired by the Department of Defense for a couple annual contracts which was cool and

[00:58:46] The the man I called dad now he was like Well, I didn't have a boss because I was the boss in the military hired my business But the the military number that I reported Like metrics to and everything it was his boss's boss

[00:59:04] And I was pretty scared of him initially. He was a lieutenant colonel And he has like stone cold killer face when he needs it And the dude I reported to is an absolute asshole so I think Dad had stone cold killer face around him not me

[00:59:22] But we were all in the same room together for meeting so we just felt like me yeah So that guy Got into Criminal trouble The guy I reported to so he went away And his his boss became the person I reported to but then the military moved him

[00:59:45] So then dad became the person I reported to and of course I was terrified of him, but you know Strong young business woman we must persevere So he got to know me through that and Found out I had

[00:59:59] aspirations to be an officer and started mentoring me toward that end and Supported me through the whole application process to become an officer and there's there's a lot that goes into that And then he retired and I

[01:00:17] Type to be an email thinking him for everything he had done to like mentor me Toward my my goals to become an officer and I had met His wife the woman I call mom through just events with the military and So I sent him an email

[01:00:40] To his like official email address because that's all I had And and thanked him for all of that and said like hey if you ever have an opening for a daughter in your family

[01:00:49] I'd like to apply for the position because he knew at that point that I had reported and you know that that was ongoing And I never heard back and I was like oh shit I never should have sent that email

[01:01:01] I wonder if that was offensive ball of blast so he has his retirement ceremony several weeks later And I'm like do I go do I not go do I do I have fun to him so I go And

[01:01:12] They had like the receiving line afterward where you know everyone was lined up to say hey and so I went over and I said congratulations and I don't remember how I brought it up, but I said something about the email and he was like email

[01:01:27] I never got an email. Oh, I haven't checked my working meal in forever because I was on terminal leave Here's my actual here's my civilian email address email that one instead

[01:01:35] So I was like should I have to first send out this like good? It was carried up the first time So I forwarded it to them and My mom would say if she were here that

[01:01:47] There was a voice in her head when they got the email saying pay attention to this. This is important So they started inviting me and my ex over for dinner we would have dinner once a week and talk and it was just like

[01:02:02] It turned into like a personal mentoring relationship instead of professional And a couple years went by like that and it turned into family and they asked me if I'd like to call them mom and dad and That was Like 10 years ago, I think No more than that

[01:02:21] Yeah more than 10 years ago and they've been in my life for 12 years now and No, I'm not legally adopted I Think you can do that as an adult, but that's not something we've done

[01:02:38] But yeah, they're a mom and dad now and I get to see them in a few weeks so that's happy Yep, and they love Kyle more than me Oh, I talked to my mom this morning she was like tell Kyle we just love him so much

[01:02:56] Give him the biggest hug for me. We just love Kyle. We love Kyle Cool Sorry your mom likes me Kyle so We're keeping well, I think your mom's still likes you more than me, but your mom at least likes me

[01:03:12] Which is a win and I will take it because I like your mom No my parents adore Kyle and My dad so Kyle and I alone and then because I was too sick for like a wedding

[01:03:26] Sarah Moni party thing and then like a little over a year later after we eloped we had a Very small celebration with just like 30 of the closest people in our lives

[01:03:38] Who were able to attend and my dad officiated that and he told the story that when Kyle and I met and started dating I went out to see them I went out to see my folks a few weeks later

[01:03:50] And I guess we were just sitting around at the kitchen table talking and I was telling them about Kyle And then I went to like go to the grocery store or something

[01:03:57] I left the house for a few minutes and dad looked at my mom and he was like she's gonna marry him and like a year He was off by six weeks It's pretty good yeah, and then any time

[01:04:11] I mean she can usually talk about Kyle without crying now But for like the first year year and a half any time I swear anytime mom talked about Kyle she would just cry

[01:04:21] So I love how he loves you. I think and I wrote a song that I did for the Yeah, the wedding celebration with with the close people to us and in the chorus I talk about how I'm pretty convinced my mom prayed Kyle into my life and yeah

[01:04:40] So anytime you're mad at me, Kyle you can just blame my mom because she pulled the strings of the universe to make this happen Ha ha Her an iron cup from the same cloth is why we get along. Yes, you were both terrified people

[01:05:00] My mom had a horse back riding accident when she was a young woman and Unfortunately that injury Resulted in paraplegia so she's been in a wheelchair for over 50 years and the woman She's like a parallel and big gold medalist in archery and

[01:05:22] She would like get on a horse tomorrow if we found a way to do that for her when I had horses She would just like roll her chair right out there to the herd and I'm like

[01:05:34] Does it gonna kill me if you die mom like I don't know if these horses are gonna spook and she'd be like oh, it's fine She's just she's like you're both orange personality types. You're crazy

[01:05:45] It's gonna be okay. Yeah, and then Kyle so like mom's getting fitted for this really awesome new chair and Kyle's like Don't worry we'll figure out how to tip it over crush it whatever No, no

[01:06:00] And my mom's always like yeah, that's so funny. Oh my dad and I are just like no No, no That's okay. We'll wait till you're not working. Okay This is why I always give my dad whiskey For Father's saying birthday like he and I need it

[01:06:17] And I need it to survive when you and my mom get going with the scary things you both want to do Fine good times well that wraps up our Second Q&A session please feel free to drop more comments or questions on the socials or The voicemail

[01:06:38] I really like them they bring me joy Okay, with behind dot com there's a little option there on the website to leave a little voice memo and it sends it to us Yeah, I love everyone who's sending questions those were really good questions. They were fun

[01:06:54] We went on a bunch of tangents. I'm okay with it But I feel like having someone else's perspective because when it's just me asking questions like

[01:07:03] I am my own little echo chamber and it's interesting to hear other people's opinions of things like I never thought to ask you So yeah, I definitely like hearing other people's questions

[01:07:16] It's fun. You guys you guys send in really great questions keep in common. We'll be back next Monday Thanks for listening to another episode of the cult I left behind until next time

[01:07:28] Don't join a cult if you enjoyed this podcast please like share and subscribe and we will Catch you on the next episode